[Possible Spoilers] Pillars of Eternity will be livestreamed at Gamescom

[Stun]

And once again you're answering questions nobody asked, Stun.

I quoted you directly. And you didn't ask me to answer any of your silly questions. You asked me to address your arguments.

 

Stop whining, now.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[BrokenMask]

Umm... Stun. Someone already pointed out that problem with getting exp for sneaking past the enemies is "What prevents you getting even more exp by killing enemies AFTER sneaking past them?"

Edited August 16, 2014 by BrokenMask

[Stun]

Umm... Stun. Someone already pointed out that problem with getting exp for sneaking past the enemies is "What prevents you getting even more exp by killing enemies AFTER sneaking past them?"

The system would. You've dealt with the enemy and got rewarded for it. Any further actions against this enemy would thus not yield anything.

 

And that would also apply to issues in the mega dungeon. Lets say you're on level 1, and there are 3 ways to unlock level 2. All three reward XP

 

1) Solve a puzzle that unlocks the Level 1 exit door.

2) Beat a Boss who has the key

3) Find a hidden tunnel that leads down.

 

Nothing is Stopping you from doing all three, but you're going to get XP rewards for the first solution you came up with.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[I Roll 20]

Do we have the video of Josh playing a druid yet?

[Tartantyco]

 

And once again you're answering questions nobody asked, Stun.

I quoted you directly. And you didn't ask me to answer any of your silly questions. You asked me to address your arguments.

 

Stop whining, now.

 

 

I didn't ask you about a success/failure XP system.

 

Of course, you edited your reply. How disingenuous can you be? To answer your edit:

 

Getting XP for, say, successfully stealthing past an encounter... No no. That won't work. Because...um... well, because you said so, of course. 

 

 

No. The reason why it won't work is because you can just farm XP by sneaking past enemies over and over all day long. But it isn't restricted to either combat or stealth, you have to have functional XP reward systems for far more approaches than that. There are, after all, 11 "professions".

 

Write up an all-encompassing XP system right now, Stun. We'll be waiting.

[Sonntam]

 

Umm... Stun. Someone already pointed out that problem with getting exp for sneaking past the enemies is "What prevents you getting even more exp by killing enemies AFTER sneaking past them?"

The system would. You've dealt with the enemy and got rewarded for it. Any further actions against this enemy would thus not yield anything.

 

And that would also apply to issues in the mega dungeon. Lets say you're on level 1, and there are 3 ways to unlock level 2. All three reward XP

 

1) Solve a puzzle that unlocks the Level 1 exit door.

2) Beat a Boos who has the key

3) find the hidden tunnel that leads down.

 

Nothing is Stopping you from doing all three, but you're going to get XP rewards for the first solution you came up with.

 

There are also problems as to count what as stealthing past an enemy. After all, many of them will be in the wilderness. Do you get experience for getting to a certain point without fighting? Does it still count if you run away from monsters and reset the fight? What about if you die and then stealth past? How do you determine this location on which experience will be granted?

 

This sounds like a hellish concept to balance. One would have to look at every map separately, then place the markers and then beta test the hell out of it.

[BrokenMask]

 

 

Umm... Stun. Someone already pointed out that problem with getting exp for sneaking past the enemies is "What prevents you getting even more exp by killing enemies AFTER sneaking past them?"

The system would. You've dealt with the enemy and got rewarded for it. Any further actions against this enemy would thus not yield anything.

 

And that would also apply to issues in the mega dungeon. Lets say you're on level 1, and there are 3 ways to unlock level 2. All three reward XP

 

1) Solve a puzzle that unlocks the Level 1 exit door.

2) Beat a Boos who has the key

3) find the hidden tunnel that leads down.

 

Nothing is Stopping you from doing all three, but you're going to get XP rewards for the first solution you came up with.

 

There are also problems as to count what as stealthing past an enemy. After all, many of them will be in the wilderness. Do you get experience for getting to a certain point without fighting? Does it still count if you run away from monsters and reset the fight? What about if you die and then stealth past? How do you determine this location on which experience will be granted?

 

This sounds like a hellish concept to balance. One would have to look at every map separately, then place the markers and then beta test the hell out of it.

 

Plus, wouldn't that prompt the situations where player needs little more exp to level up, so they decide to sneak past enemy to get the little exp they need only to afterwards kill the enemy anyway?

[Stun]

No. The reason why it won't work is because you can just farm XP by sneaking past enemies over and over all day long. But it isn't restricted to either combat or stealth, you have to have functional XP reward systems for far more approaches than that. There are, after all, 11 "professions".

I'm not advocating that the system allow for XP farming.

 

I'm advocating that the system present the player with however many challenges it deems fit. And then.... that it rewards the player for whatever he successfully does to overcome each challenge. If that challenge happens to be an encounter, then successfully overcoming that encounter via combat would see that player rewarded with XP. if he sneaks past that encounter, then he'd be Rewarded XP if he talks his way past it...then XP.

 

And for the nit-pickers, No, That doesn't mean that the game should allow you to double dip. if you got XP for dealing with that encounter, then any further dealings with it should net you nothing.

 

Write up an all-encompassing XP system right now, Stun. We'll be waiting.

::::writes up Planescape Torment's XP system::::

[PrimeJunta]

 

::::writes up Planescape Torment's XP system::::

 

 

Yeah, that was great. Memory! Six million XP! Answer a riddle for a skeleton! Sixty-five thousand XP! Trinket that turns into a reusable dungeon with infinite kill XP grinding! Sewers with even more infinite kill XP!

 

The XP system in PS:T was horrid and ridiculous, and a result of shoehorning the game into the AD&D mechanical mold it didn't fit. Chris Avellone has admitted as much himself.

Edited August 16, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Sarex]

Write up an all-encompassing XP system right now, Stun. We'll be waiting.

::::writes up Planescape Torment's XP system::::

 

 

You should ask for some of that Kickstarter money Stun, they are even asking you to make the game now. LoL, but Tartantycos arguments are priceless.

[Stun]

 

::::writes up Planescape Torment's XP system::::

 

Yeah, that was great. Memory! Six million XP! Answer a riddle for a skeleton! Sixty-five thousand XP!

 

The XP system in PS:T was horrid and ridiculous, and a result of shoehorning the game into the AD&D mechanical mold it didn't fit. Chris Avellone has admitted as much himself.

 

That would be a problem with how much XP is rewarded for each objective resolution. Not the system itself. We were discussing how to create a system that rewards all of your skills.

 

PS:T gave you XP for stealth, talking, combat, and even trap disarming and spell casting. It rewarded you XP for each and every attribute you used. (str, Dex, wis, Int, Con, charisma). And it rewarded you for your Class.

 

That is an all encompassing system.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[Volourn]

So.. my question after all this hasn't been answered. Why is the ogre deemed worthy of xp for completing that objective but not successfully dealing with the beetles (through killing or other method? What makes the ogre so special? Extremely arbitrally and illogical. This question has NOTHING to do with KILL XP vs NON KILL XP. You should be able to get xp with delaing with the beetles even through non violence. ie. A druid can use a charm insect/animal spell to convince the beetles to leave the area and find another place to hunt or maybe just freak the beetles out that someone actually talk to them. <>

[PrimeJunta]

No. Stun... just... no.

 

PS:T remains my favorite game of all time, but many of its systems were badly broken, and of those systems, the XP system is the worst. If you think it's an example of how they should work I just... no. I'm at a loss for words, and that rarely happens.

[Stun]

So.. my question after all this hasn't been answered. Why is the ogre deemed worthy of xp for completing that objective but not successfully dealing with the beetles (through killing or other method? What makes the ogre so special? Extremely arbitrally and illogical. This question has NOTHING to do with KILL XP vs NON KILL XP. You should be able to get xp with delaing with the beetles even through non violence. ie. A druid can use a charm insect/animal spell to convince the beetles to leave the area and find another place to hunt or maybe just freak the beetles out that someone actually talk to them. <>

^because.... hand placed (read: Arbitary) XP rewards > a standard system. Even if the encounter that rewarded you nothing happened to be more difficult than the one that rewarded you 2000 XP. And even if such a system can very easily lead to perverse incentives: Like metagaming.... Killing only what rewards, sparing everything that doesn't.

 

Isn't that right, PrimeJunta?

Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[Volourn]

 Well, watching the video more closely. You get 1500xp for just entering the ogre cave then 3000xp for killing (and I presume you get that if you deal with him in another way) but nothing for the beetles or spiders. I cna udnerstand spiders because they a) block the cave entrance and tb)he way where the ogre is in the cave but why shouldn't overcoming the beetles get you some xp reward.

 

Why is the ogre worth 3k (4.5k actually+ whatever you get for turning in the ogre head) but the beetles nothing. LMAO

[BrokenMask]

So out of curiosity, what if beetles respawn?

How that would affect your guys' argument about them needing exp reward? Affect only first time?

[PrimeJunta]

because.... hand placed (read: Arbitary) XP rewards > a standard system. Even if the encounter that rewarded you nothing happened to be more difficult than the one that rewarded you 2000 XP. And even if such a system can very easily lead to perverse incentives: Like metagaming.... Killing only what rewards, sparing everything that doesn't.

Isn't that right, PrimeJunta?

 

Hand-placed is not necessarily arbitrary. That be strawman, yo.

 

Killing only what it makes sense to kill in order to achieve your objectives is not metagaming in the least. On the contrary, it's playing the game intelligently and in character.

 

As to hand-placed vs systemic, I already addressed that: systemic is better for pure dungeon crawlers, hand-placed is better for quest-driven. PS:T and BG2 would have been better games with hand-placed XP. The IWD's not so much, although they would have been no worse if the XP had been intelligently placed. NetHack or Diablo would not work without systemic XP.

[Volourn]

"So out of curiosity, what if beetles respawn?

How that would affect your guys' argument about them needing exp reward? Affect only first time? :p"
 

Well, you beat the beetles once. Beating them a second time doesn't prove anything nor should your characetrs really leanr anything new for doing so. That's if you use respawn at all. Another way do it is if you find the beetle 'hive' (yeah I know beetles don't really have hives ala bees but you get it ) and defeat/disperce the beetles there you should xp for making the area safer. You can even do it without fighting.

 

\The IE games were all hand placed xp.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Volourn

[Tartantyco]

The IE games were all hand placed xp.

 

 

Say wuuuuuuuuuut? Apparently random encounters don't real.

[Doppelschwert]

"So out of curiosity, what if beetles respawn?

 

How that would affect your guys' argument about them needing exp reward? Affect only first time? :p"

 

Well, you beat the beetles once. Beating them a second time doesn't prove anything nor should your characetrs really leanr anything new for doing so. That's if you use respawn at all. Another way do it is if you find the beetle 'hive' (yeah I know beetles don't really have hives ala bees but you get it ) and defeat/disperce the beetles there you should xp for making the area safer. You can even do it without fighting.

 

\The IE games were all hand placed xp.

 

By that logic, why would you gain exp for any beetle but the very first one you killed? Beating a second one doesn't prove anything either then.

[Tartantyco]

Those guys have long since traded away reason for incoherent rambling, Doppelschwert.

[Labadal]

The beetles don't give exp because they are not the objective. Deal with it.

[Volourn]

They are my objective so DEAL WITH IT. Yeah, your objective is to run to a cave and gain 1500xp. LMAO

 

 

 

"By that logic, why would you gain exp for any beetle but the very first one you killed? Beating a second one doesn't prove anything either then."

 

Look at that. Another spaghetti argument.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Volourn

[Labadal]

They are my objective so DEAL WITH IT. Yeah, your objective is to run to a cave and gain 1500xp. LMAO

 

 

 

"By that logic, why would you gain exp for any beetle but the very first one you killed? Beating a second one doesn't prove anything either then."

 

Look at that. Another spaghetti argument.

They aren't your objective. The Ogre is stealing pigs. Your objective is to get to him and fix this in a manner of your choosing, kill him or make him stop. Upon finishing that task, your objective is to go back to the farmer and tell him about the outcome. You objective is stated in the journal. The journal does not mention beetles. Now go back to the codex and tell them again how we on this board are idiots.

[Volourn]

Then why do you get 1500xp  for entering the cave? That's not in your journal nor does entering the cave stop the ogre. L0L

 

So... you agree with me? The PC is a slave who has no mind of his own. Only gets xp if he follows the book. LMAO