"evil" choices, immersion, what (not?) to learn from IWD2

[Stun]

No, at no point were you tasked to save the Sword Coast.

You are mistaken. In chapter 2, you are told, point blank, by Barren Gatskill, about the regional significance of the Nashkell mines, and you are tasked to investigate why the miners are dying and the Ore is tainted. That is chapter's 2's main plot. You cannot refuse to do it if you wish to beat the game. And completing it has nothing to do with you. Chapter 3's main plot is stopping the bandits who are terrorizing the sword coast. And you can't refuse to do that if you wish to beat the game. Chapter 4's main plot is to liberate the Cloakwood mine from the Iron throne's Grasp. No choice there either. Chapter 5's main plot is to storm the Iron throne headquarters. (note: just like chapter 2, Chapter 5's main quest is given to you by city leaders, who neither know nor care who you are. And you have no choice but to do precisely what they say) Chapter 6's plot is to spy on the Iron throne leaders. Chapter 7's plot is to stop Serevok before he initiates his war. Again, you are given that quest by city leaders who neither know nor care that you are a child of bhaal. And you have no choice but to do precisely what they say.

 

That could have been your motivation and probably was if you were good but if you were evil you might as well just wanted to kill Sarevok who obviously wanted you dead.

Unless you're metagaming, you do not even know who Seravok is, nor are you given a chance to go after him, until chapter 5. and wanting to Go after Serevok isn't "evil" anyway. Edited August 7, 2014 by Stun

[archangel979]

 

No, at no point were you tasked to save the Sword Coast.

You are mistaken. In chapter 2, you are told, point blank, by Barren Gatskill, about the regional significance of the Nashkell mines, and you are tasked to investigate why the miners are dying and the Ore is tainted. That is chapter's 2's main plot. Chapter 3's main plot is stopping the bandits who are terrorizing the sword coast. Chapter 4's main plot is to liberate the Cloakwood mine from the Iron throne's Grasp. Chapter 5's main plot is to storm the Iron throne headquarters. (note: just like chapter 2, Chapter 5's main quest is given to you by city leaders, who neither know nor care who you are. And you have no choice but to do precisely what they say) Chapter 6's plot is to spy on the Iron throne leaders. Chapter 7's plot is to stop Serevok before he initiates his war. Again, you are given that quest by city leaders who neither know nor care that you are a child of bhaal.

 

That could have been your motivation and probably was if you were good but if you were evil you might as well just wanted to kill Sarevok who obviously wanted you dead.

Unless you're metagaming, you do not even know who Seravok is, nor are you given a chance to go after him, until chapter 5.

 

Read my posts better. I said you start as adventurer, mine quest is just what adventurers do. You were left alone in unknown world without power, money, allies or goals. What, you are immediately going to start an evil empire?! No, you start as a adventurer and try to gather all you need for later. Then mine quest pulls you into a bigger mystery. After few assassinations or at the latest bandit camp you figure out Iron Throne is one trying to kill you. You go after them and find about Sarevok. 

In the goal to **** up Sarevok and Iron Throne you get framed for murder and everyone is after you. Your only ally will help you if you help them stop Sarevok, there is nothing automatically good around saving yourself. Basically after you learn about who is trying to kill  you nothing after that is a good quest unless your character wants it to be. 

[Stun]

Read my posts better. I said you start as adventurer

But you don't start as an adventurer. You start as a fleeing victim of an ambush. If you'd like an example of starting as an adventurer, try the Icewind Dale games.

 

 

mine quest is just what adventurers do.

It's not your choice.

 

You were left alone in unknown world without power, money, allies or goals.

You're given names of allies, and a direction on the very morning after the attack. And then those allies give you your goal.

 

In the goal to **** up Sarevok and Iron Throne you get framed for murder and everyone is after you.

In other words, the final goal is to beat the big bad boss and halt his epic-scale murder plans.

 

So what? How does that help your case? BG1 is not a personal story. It's a standard save the world story that happens to have a clever Boss who tries to have you eliminated because you're in his way, NOT because of any personal vendetta.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Stun

[archangel979]

 

But you don't start as an adventurer. You start as a fleeing victim of an ambush. You start as an adventurer in the Icewind Dale games.

 

 

mine quest is just what adventurers do.

It's not your choice.

 

You were left alone in unknown world without power, money, allies or goals.

You're given names of allies and a goal on the very morning after the attack.

 

In the goal to **** up Sarevok and Iron Throne you get framed for murder and everyone is after you.

In other words, the final goal is to beat the big bad boss and halt his mass murdering plans.

 

So what? How does that help your case? BG1 is not a personal story. It's a standard save the world story that happens to have a clever Boss who tries to have you eliminated because you're in his way, NOT because of any personal vendetta.

 

I guess you just read the parts of my posts you like and ignore the rest. No point debating this with you then. I presented my points for people that know how to read the whole thing.

Have a good day.

[Amentep]

Read my posts better. I said you start as adventurer, mine quest is just what adventurers do. You were left alone in unknown world without power, money, allies or goals. What, you are immediately going to start an evil empire?! No, you start as a adventurer and try to gather all you need for later. Then mine quest pulls you into a bigger mystery. After few assassinations or at the latest bandit camp you figure out Iron Throne is one trying to kill you. You go after them and find about Sarevok.

I think - and I may be reading too much into Stun's post so I apologize if I misrepresent him or his position - that in a Pen and Paper game (the only way you have true freedom to play an alignment) an evil PC would not necessarily choose to look into the mine mystery over other options.

 

I could easily see a Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil character wanting to try and join the Iron Throne, or join the bandits for example, rather than stop either group. That might not be successful and lead them to conflict, but the game ultimately doesn't support that.

 

The end result is always that - good or evil - you are narratively shoe-horned into certain positions. You can justify it in your head, but its not a case of the game actually allowing you to roleplay evil, to be fair.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Amentep

[Stun]

Lets start from the beginning.

 

No, at no point were you tasked to save the Sword Coast.

False. Beginning with chapter 2 every single critical path objective until chapter 7 is about saving the sword coast - which cannot be construed as an evil goal in any way, shape or form. Even from an Amnish perspective.

 

You can argue head-canon based personal objectives all you want, but the game is not structured to support them. And even investigating the Nashkell mines cannot be seen as a stepping stone to finding Seravok, since the game gives you absolutely no hints that it is.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Stun

[archangel979]

 

Read my posts better. I said you start as adventurer, mine quest is just what adventurers do. You were left alone in unknown world without power, money, allies or goals. What, you are immediately going to start an evil empire?! No, you start as a adventurer and try to gather all you need for later. Then mine quest pulls you into a bigger mystery. After few assassinations or at the latest bandit camp you figure out Iron Throne is one trying to kill you. You go after them and find about Sarevok.

I think - and I may be reading too much into Stun's post so I apologize if I misrepresent him or his position - that in a Pen and Paper game (the only way you have true freedom to play an alignment) an evil PC would not necessarily choose to look into the mine mystery over other options.

 

I could easily see a Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil character wanting to try and join the Iron Throne, or join the bandits for example, rather than stop either group. That might not be successful and lead them to conflict, but the game ultimately doesn't support that.

 

The end result is always that - good or evil - you are narratively shoe-horned into certain positions. You can justify it in your head, but its not a case of the game actually allowing you to roleplay evil, to be fair.

 

In Pen and Paper you are limited by your GM story and your party members. Just because your character is evil it does not mean his party is evil or that he can do stupid evil stuff (players playing Evil usually do stupid evil 99% of the time) and get away with it. 

Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil will not join a group that is sending assassins to kill him. And Sarevok is not going to stop because you want to join him. You are his competition and he will kill you. And you can join the bandits in BG1, if only for a short while. Also in the Cloakwood mines you can pretend that you are one of them and ignore slaves and not save any of them. 

 

I accepted earlier in this thread arguments that BG1 is not a good example of a true evil campaign but it is also not actively stopping your from being evil like Mass Effect does or Dragon Age Origins. Just by allowing you to be able to justify easily the end goal as part of your evil goal by not actually telling you why you are there is a good thing. 

[Amentep]

In Pen and Paper you are limited by your GM story and your party members. Just because your character is evil it does not mean his party is evil or that he can do stupid evil stuff (players playing Evil usually do stupid evil 99% of the time) and get away with it.

Technically in P&P you don't have to have a party. I've played in P&P games that actually had two different small groups running around (sometimes with opposing goals) and solo players running tangentially with a party.

 

Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil will not join a group that is sending assassins to kill him. And Sarevok is not going to stop because you want to join him. You are his competition and he will kill you. And you can join the bandits in BG1, if only for a short while. Also in the Cloakwood mines you can pretend that you are one of them and ignore slaves and not save any of them.

This may be my faulty memory but I didn't think that initially you knew it was the Iron Throne organization that wanted to kill you, only that Serevok had killed Gorian and wanted you dead. I thought the Iron Throne connection to Sarevok was made after you go to the mines and that's what leads you to need to follow up in Baldur's Gate. If I'm wrong, mea culpa, it's been a number of years since I played BG1.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Amentep

[Bryy]

I am not sure what you are talking about here.  They mean a great deal in that game.  More than the others.  You could be one cold bloodedly cruel bastard.  I have to admit I didn't have the stomach for it.

 

I'd go further to say that Torment is the only RPG where playing an evil character makes more sense than "because I can". The story literally sets no specific path for the Nameless One. In fact, TNO's core self was an evil prick.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

In those games where you can be actually evil, Bioware usually tries to throw something personal into the mix to justify why you can't sign up with the enemy.

 

An evil character in BG can't join the Iron Throne or side with Sarevok because Sarevok is trying to slaughter all the other Bhaalspawn. An evil character in BG2 can't side with Irenicus because Irenicus wants his/her soul. An evil character in Knights of the Old Republic can't defect to the Sith because he's Darth Revan and Malak wants him dead. An evil character in Jade Empire can't side with the villains because he's the last spirit monk and the only real danger to those villains. And so on.

 

The problem is that, as often as not, you don't know about these things until well into the game. Why wouldn't a Revan who is openly indulging in every kind of dark side act try to defect to the Sith the moment he is let free from Dantooine? Before he finds out he's Darth Revan, there is zero explanation for why he can't even try this. 

[Yonjuro]

 ...And you can join the bandits in BG1, if only for a short while.... 

 

 Careful, that is the good path. If you get the good dream (that is, the dream you get if your reputation is 10 better), it assumes that you pretended to join the bandits (which is what Drizzt advised you to do if you helped him). The evil dream assumes that you killed them.

[archangel979]

 

 ...And you can join the bandits in BG1, if only for a short while.... 

 

 Careful, that is the good path. If you get the good dream (that is, the dream you get if your reputation is 10 better), it assumes that you pretended to join the bandits (which is what Drizzt advised you to do if you helped him). The evil dream assumes that you killed them.

 

I don't remember the dreams having anything to do with how the bandit camp went. You kill them all in the end anyways after you go into the tent. 

[archangel979]

 

In Pen and Paper you are limited by your GM story and your party members. Just because your character is evil it does not mean his party is evil or that he can do stupid evil stuff (players playing Evil usually do stupid evil 99% of the time) and get away with it.

Technically in P&P you don't have to have a party. I've played in P&P games that actually had two different small groups running around (sometimes with opposing goals) and solo players running tangentially with a party.

 

Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil will not join a group that is sending assassins to kill him. And Sarevok is not going to stop because you want to join him. You are his competition and he will kill you. And you can join the bandits in BG1, if only for a short while. Also in the Cloakwood mines you can pretend that you are one of them and ignore slaves and not save any of them.

This may be my faulty memory but I didn't think that initially you knew it was the Iron Throne organization that wanted to kill you, only that Serevok had killed Gorian and wanted you dead. I thought the Iron Throne connection to Sarevok was made after you go to the mines and that's what leads you to need to follow up in Baldur's Gate. If I'm wrong, mea culpa, it's been a number of years since I played BG1.

 

What you describe is 1% of P&P campaigns, just like these allusive true evil campaigns :D (I would bet Age of Decadence offers true evil play)

 

Once you are in the bandit camp it all becomes clear fast through letters and the person you free. Letters there say that whoever is behind this is also trying to kill you and you have no choice but to figure out who is behind it and kill them first (if you are not good) or try to stop their plans (if you are good). 

I am not sure, but after Nashkell mine, the mage you kill in the Inn in Beregost might already have a letter that mentions you which would already set you on a path of revenge or saving yourself. 

Edited August 8, 2014 by archangel979

[Stun]

 

Careful, that is the good path. If you get the good dream (that is, the dream you get if your reputation is 10 better), it assumes that you pretended to join the bandits (which is what Drizzt advised you to do if you helped him). The evil dream assumes that you killed them.

I don't remember the dreams having anything to do with how the bandit camp went.

 

The chapter 3 dream is not dependent on how you handled the Bandit camp. (it's dependent on your reputation score) But it is ABOUT the bandit camp itself. And as Yonjuro points out, in the good aligned dream the narrator says: "...a camp secluded and hidden from the rest of the sword coast. All manner of bandit and brigand move about here but you may as well be invisible amongst them...". By contrast, the Evil dream describes you as reveling in the bloodshed.

 

You kill them all in the end anyways after you go into the tent.

This is also false. They do not automatically turn hostile after you kill everyone in the tent. The game, in fact, assigns a different faction flag for the bandits inside. Of course, only a fool would choose to not finish the job, especially since Togosz Khossan is worth 2000xp and drops full plate armor. Edited August 8, 2014 by Stun

[Amentep]

What you describe is 1% of P&P campaigns, just like these allusive true evil campaigns :D (I would bet Age of Decadence offers true evil play)

Yeah, I never really played evil, but I used to play with a couple of players who loved to play evil.

 

Once you are in the bandit camp it all becomes clear fast through letters and the person you free. Letters there say that whoever is behind this is also trying to kill you and you have no choice but to figure out who is behind it and kill them first (if you are not good) or try to stop their plans (if you are good). 

I am not sure, but after Nashkell mine, the mage you kill in the Inn in Beregost might already have a letter that mentions you which would already set you on a path of revenge or saving yourself.

Probably should replay BG1 at some point - it has definitely been too long; the fine details are lost.

[Stun]

I wouldn't be too concerned about the "fine details" here. Archangel979 doesn't know what he's talking about. Even the Giant details are lost to him. (How can anyone so wildly misunderstand BG1's SIMPLISTIC plot and spoon-fed motivations?)

 

First off, Tracking down Seravok and killing him before he kills you is not Evil. Why is it being presented as an evil path at all? Motivation-wise it's self defense at that point in the game. And even in Chapter 7, when you now know that you're both children of Bhaal, it's still not evil. It's merely Chaotic. (you know...CHAOS will be sown in their passage...etc.) But, that doesn't matter anyway because in chapter three, when you're in the bandit camp, the choice to go after him is NOT AVAILABLE to you.

 

Second, those letters are not a clue to Seravok's whereabouts, or plans. Their function is to feed you information about the Iron throne, and to deliberately suggest that someone is trying to kill you because your party is meddling in the Iron Throne's affairs. There is no other way to interpret them. Those letters then point you straight to the Cloakwood mines operation. And.... those Letters are written by Davaeorn. So if your motivation is to just kill Seravok, going to the Cloakwood mines to hunt down Davaeorn constitutes being Chaotic Stupid. Or Lawful Clueless. Take your pick. Davaeorn is Reiltar's subordinate, not Seravok's.

 

Third, BG1. Is. Not. A. Personal. Story. You can try to have personal motivations, but the game will pound you over the head with Epic-scale altruism at every turn until you either accept the role of being the champion of the greater good, or you quit playing the game out of sheer confusion.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Stun

[archangel979]

You are still taking things out of context and twisting things how you like it. Hilarious. Please stop putting my forum name in your posts if you are going to be like this, I really don't want to talk to you anymore and I am going to report you for stalking or something. 

[Stun]

You are still taking things out of context and twisting things how you like it. Hilarious. Please stop putting my forum name in your posts if you are going to be like this, I really don't want to talk to you anymore and I am going to report you for stalking or something.

You're not employing any context. Plus you don't know what the definition of evil is. And as an added annoyance, The number of sheer, plain factual errors you've spouted about BG's story are too numerous to cite.

 

This is not even a debate.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

 ...And you can join the bandits in BG1, if only for a short while.... 

 

 Careful, that is the good path. If you get the good dream (that is, the dream you get if your reputation is 10 better), it assumes that you pretended to join the bandits (which is what Drizzt advised you to do if you helped him). The evil dream assumes that you killed them.

 

I don't remember the dreams having anything to do with how the bandit camp went...

 

 The dream you get depends on your reputation. 10 or better gets you the 'good' dream 9 or lower gets you the 'evil' dream. The good dream assumes you joined the bandits the evil dream assumes you killed them.

 

... You kill them all in the end anyways after you go into the tent. 

 

 The game doesn't force you to. You can finish that chapter without killing anyone in the bandit camp if you want.

 

 

EDIT: Looks like Stun already said this.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Yonjuro

[archangel979]

I don't remember ever getting into the tent and not being attacked by the people inside after a short conversation. 

[Lephys]

Maybe your character was terrible at conversation?

[Stun]

There's only 4 bandits in Tazok's tent. That's hardly ALL the bandits in the bandit camp. Is it.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Stun

[Yonjuro]

I don't remember ever getting into the tent and not being attacked by the people inside after a short conversation. 

 

 You can finish the chapter without killing anybody on the bandit camp map inside or outside of the tent if you make good use of capabilities and/or resources in the game. The solution is left as an exercise for the reader.

 

(Of course, as Stun mentioned, it is usually better to kill everyone on the map for the XP and loot.) 

[Sondai]

I too hope most distinctly that an evil-playthrough will be interesting if not meaningful. I will replay the game like crazy.

 

I wax selfish evil (when not Chaotic Good), not psychotic evil, so am usually able to navigate through many "good" quests as a means to my end -- in my mind.

 

Call me weird, but my favorite Evil playthrough was Kotor 2, not only fighting the Masters and the dialog but the very emotional closing dialog with Kreia -- one that I didn't notice or had little meaning as a Good character.

 

Beyond that punching the reporter in Mass Effect/2 -- (I know that is different. :D) was so worth the price of the game and I'm not a violent person.

 

Otherwise, the Neverwinter mod, Dances with Rogues was also much Evil fun (the slightly over-the-top, R-rated content aside).

Edited August 9, 2014 by Sondai