Game looks great, but...

[Fearabbit]

And yet one has to realize that for some people portraits may be a bigger letdown than current models.

 

Sorry, but no. I can understand your point of view but don't call it a "letdown". That implies that you had different expectations before, but there was no reason whatsoever to assume that PoE wouldn't have painted portraits. It was part of the pitch, it's what makes it a spiritual successor to the IE games.

So complaining about that really is NOT valid at all - unless you're actually let down by the poor quality of the portraits, which doesn't seem to be the case (and it'd be strange too, because they're beautiful).

 

I started with different games than most people here. I came to know IE games very late, which is why I'm much less nostalgic about them. I actually started with NWN first and it was weird to me to have to choose a portrait that didn't look like the character I had in mind and ALSO didn't look like the shoddy 3D model I saw earlier during customization.

So I can understand where you're coming from, but this game is supposed to be a modern IE game, and for that you need to have this feature.

 

By the way, modding communities can do wonders for stuff like that. I bet we'll see some amazing custom portraits soon after release (shortly after the initial wave of old IE game portraits).

[Sonntam]

 

And yet one has to realize that for some people portraits may be a bigger letdown than current models.

 

Sorry, but no. I can understand your point of view but don't call it a "letdown". That implies that you had different expectations before, but there was no reason whatsoever to assume that PoE wouldn't have painted portraits. It was part of the pitch, it's what makes it a spiritual successor to the IE games.

So complaining about that really is NOT valid at all - unless you're actually let down by the poor quality of the portraits, which doesn't seem to be the case (and it'd be strange too, because they're beautiful).

 

I started with different games than most people here. I came to know IE games very late, which is why I'm much less nostalgic about them. I actually started with NWN first and it was weird to me to have to choose a portrait that didn't look like the character I had in mind and ALSO didn't look like the shoddy 3D model I saw earlier during customization.

So I can understand where you're coming from, but this game is supposed to be a modern IE game, and for that you need to have this feature.

 

By the way, modding communities can do wonders for stuff like that. I bet we'll see some amazing custom portraits soon after release (shortly after the initial wave of old IE game portraits).

 

The inherrent flaw of portraits is that they are already set in stone. If you like Calisca's portrait, but would like to have same character with black hair and dark skin, you're out of luck. If you want the same appearance, but perhaps more grim Calisca, you are out of luck. 

 

Even with mods, there simply cannot be enough portraits to offer the same variety normal sliders have. This means that unless I am willing to pay an artist to make a portrait of a character I imagine, I will be out of luck.

 

I usually spend ages at character creation screen and this part of the game matters a lot to me. I don't really mind that there are portraits in game, as long as I can change stuff about the appearance of the model itself. However portraits are still more of a crutch to me. I may accept that for older games it was not an option to allow you to create your character's appearance, due to technical limitations, but Obsidian promised to make an old-school RPG, only better. And offering portraits and giving the opportunity for the player to see character models early on is a pretty good compromise to me.

 

(Plus, I still don't understand what the problem with the models is. I heard people talking about flat textures, but I'm not really seeing the difference between what PoE showed in videos and I've seen from character creation of Divinity Original Sin.)

[Fearabbit]

The inherrent flaw of portraits is that they are already set in stone. If you like Calisca's portrait, but would like to have same character with black hair and dark skin, you're out of luck. If you want the same appearance, but perhaps more grim Calisca, you are out of luck.

 

You don't need to tell me that, I just said I understand what you mean.

 

The fact remains that it was very clear from the beginning that there would be portraits. And if you expected anything else, you didn't pay attention. Obsidian didn't just say "like old school RPGs but better", they explained in detail what they were planning to do, and that detailed plan was what resonated with so many people here. Part of that was having portraits for the party.

 

(BTW I didn't like the character creation screen in Divinity Original Sin either.)

[adam77]

 

I think a lot of people would like 2D Paperdolls, but they would require a massive amount of 2D art time, this project only has 2 x 2D artists that I am aware of.

 

It's crazy the amount of stuff that Kaz has to do, which means we may not get heaps of his portraits :(

I do not know why it would be a big problem. Here are a few examples that demonstrate how easy it can be achieved.

 

- smaller 3d character (Icewind dale 2) (pic 01)

- use just portrait illustration as the preview image during the character selection (bg 1, bg 2, iwd 1,2....) (pic 02)

- or use something like this (pic_03_03b) just more "infinity engine" look

 

Pic 04 is showing how is now.

 

Compare. Feel.

 

Pic 04 is childish for me, and reminds me too much on the game type wow.

[Zwiebelchen]

The thing with portraits in the IE games and NWN was: as you could freely import pictures as portraits (supported feature by the game), it added a totally new tabletop experience to the game: that you are able to draw your own portrait if you had the skills (or just used any picture you liked on DeviantArt and cropped it to your needs).

 

For some people playing tabletop games, making their own character plastic and hand-coloring it is the most important aspect of the actual game. There are several startup companies on kickstarter that you can send your CAD models to that will 3d-print your character exactly after your specs.

 

Portraits are awesome for that trait. You basicly have unlimited freedom in your character design that way ... if there wouldn't be the 3D model limiting you. That's why the barebones paperdoll of the IE games were so good - it allowed enough room for imagination to fill the gap between portrait and ingame model.

 

The idea is to have a reduced-to-minimum 3D representation of your character ingame to leave imaginatory space to connect portrait and ingame appearance. That works great when watching the models from isometric perspective. But it doesn't work anymore as soon as an up-close 3D model comes into play.

 

 

I do not know why it would be a big problem. Here are a few examples that demonstrate how easy it can be achieved.

 

- smaller 3d character (Icewind dale 2) (pic 01)

- use just portrait illustration as the preview image during the character selection (bg 1, bg 2, iwd 1,2....) (pic 02)

- or use something like this (pic_03_03b) just more "infinity engine" look

 

Pic 04 is showing how is now.

 

Compare. Feel.

 

Pic 04 is childish for me, and reminds me too much on the game type wow.

 

 

Nice examples! That's exactly what I was talking about! I also feel that IWD character creation in this comparison stands the test of time much better than the latter two. IWD2 still looks good even today, despite being 15 years old.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[archangel979]

I forgot how good IWD2 char sheet looked.

[Amentep]

 

 

I think a lot of people would like 2D Paperdolls, but they would require a massive amount of 2D art time, this project only has 2 x 2D artists that I am aware of.

 

It's crazy the amount of stuff that Kaz has to do, which means we may not get heaps of his portraits :(

I do not know why it would be a big problem. Here are a few examples that demonstrate how easy it can be achieved.

 

- smaller 3d character (Icewind dale 2) (pic 01)

- use just portrait illustration as the preview image during the character selection (bg 1, bg 2, iwd 1,2....) (pic 02)

- or use something like this (pic_03_03b) just more "infinity engine" look

 

Pic 04 is showing how is now.

 

Compare. Feel.

 

Pic 04 is childish for me, and reminds me too much on the game type wow.

 

 

Don't you mean Pic05 is showing how it is now?

 

Anyhow you're not comparing apples with apples; the pic you have from PoE is from character creation.

 

This is how it looks on the character sheet:

 

[nipsen]

 

The idea is to have a reduced-to-minimum 3D representation of your character ingame to leave imaginatory space to connect portrait and ingame appearance. That works great when watching the models from isometric perspective. But it doesn't work anymore as soon as an up-close 3D model comes into play.

 

Good point, that. ..still think some emboss or engraving filter was a good idea, though.

[Sarex]

Don't you mean Pic05 is showing how it is now?

 

Anyhow you're not comparing apples with apples; the pic you have from PoE is from character creation.

 

This is how it looks on the character sheet:

 

-image-

 

The IE character sheets look much better, IWD2 being the best of them. I really don't like how simple or plain it looks. As for the model, it would look better if they reduced the size of it.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Combinations aren't really needed, if we take it more as a support picture to the descriptional text that appears on the right, not as an actual preview of your character. Said preview could instead just be the portrait (like in the IE games).

 

 

But this is simply not true, you need to see your character's race, your class starting gear, how the portrait will fit your character, etc. A paperdoll model was also present in the IE games, by the way, so it's not like they're breaking tradition.

[Valorian]

I like the models. Perhaps the posture is a bit unconventional, but why not? It's the burden of a heavy soul. 

 

Also, his barbarian's outfit is delightful  , it makes me want to play a rogue. Tough choices.

[Amentep]

 

Don't you mean Pic05 is showing how it is now?

 

Anyhow you're not comparing apples with apples; the pic you have from PoE is from character creation.

 

This is how it looks on the character sheet:

 

-image-

 

The IE character sheets look much better, IWD2 being the best of them. I really don't like how simple or plain it looks. As for the model, it would look better if they reduced the size of it.

 

 

And I don't disagree, but if we're comparing character sheets, lets compare character sheets, not character sheets and the large scale character creation model.

[Sarex]

And I don't disagree, but if we're comparing character sheets, lets compare character sheets, not character sheets and the large scale character creation model.

 

I think he was talking about how the model looks, not the character sheet. By again he is comparing paper doll with a 3d model.

[Amentep]

 

And I don't disagree, but if we're comparing character sheets, lets compare character sheets, not character sheets and the large scale character creation model.

 

I think he was talking about how the model looks, not the character sheet. By again he is comparing paper doll with a 3d model.

 

 

I agree that was what he was talking about; however my take on the footage was that the model in character creation is slightly larger than the model that is seen on the character sheet.  So calls that it needs to be smaller could be misleading because it is smaller on the character sheet vs the picture he actually showed, from character creation.

 

In other words, if we're going to compare the character sheets, lets actually see the character sheets.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Amentep

[adam77]

 

 

 

I think a lot of people would like 2D Paperdolls, but they would require a massive amount of 2D art time, this project only has 2 x 2D artists that I am aware of.

 

It's crazy the amount of stuff that Kaz has to do, which means we may not get heaps of his portraits :(

I do not know why it would be a big problem. Here are a few examples that demonstrate how easy it can be achieved.

 

- smaller 3d character (Icewind dale 2) (pic 01)

- use just portrait illustration as the preview image during the character selection (bg 1, bg 2, iwd 1,2....) (pic 02)

- or use something like this (pic_03_03b) just more "infinity engine" look

 

Pic 04 is showing how is now.

 

Compare. Feel.

 

Pic 04 is childish for me, and reminds me too much on the game type wow.

 

 

Don't you mean Pic05 is showing how it is now?

 

Anyhow you're not comparing apples with apples; the pic you have from PoE is from character creation.

 

This is how it looks on the character sheet:

 

 

Yes, sorry for that, I must put this screen in comparation. But does it not seem to you that the portrait on the left completely independent of the 3D model. and it looks as if they were two different people. This 3d model is quite large and can see a lot of flaws and differences from the illustrations on the left.

[Sarex]

Yes, sorry for that, I must put this screen in comparation. But does it not seem to you that the portrait on the left completely independent of the 3D model. and it looks as if they were two different people. This 3d model is quite large and can see a lot of flaws and differences from the illustrations on the left.

 

That will all be covered up by armor anyways, you won't see the difference and to be honest it's the players fault if they chose a portrait that is different for their character model.

[adam77]

Something like this is much better to me. Beautiful Illustrations and only slots for equipment

[wolfstriked]

Something like this is much better to me. Beautiful Illustrations and only slots for equipment

Wow,that quick mockup just made the wait even harder.Really like the way that looks.

[Karkarov]

In other words, if we're going to compare the character sheets, lets actually see the character sheets.

Just to throw this out there but the character model from the combo I image I posted on page one is in fact from the character sheet screen.  So at least we got a decent quality look at it somewhere in the thread.  I know you posted it up as well and I don't know how or why it happened but yours came out really blurry.

[Silent Winter]

Yes, sorry for that, I must put this screen in comparation. But does it not seem to you that the portrait on the left completely independent of the 3D model. and it looks as if they were two different people.

 

But they made no attempt to match them up - this was a quick demo showing facial hair and picking from a very limted number (2-3) of available portraits.

Final game will have more portraits, more hairstyles than shown for the 3D model and the ability to import portraits.

(It's still not ideal as we won't have the option of creating fat/skinny/tall/short variations but nothing's perfect).

 

Someone else mentioned that it'd be better to choose your portrait before setting physical appearance - that'd be the way to go IMO.

Something like this is much better to me. Beautiful Illustrations and only slots for equipment

That does look good

[IndiraLightfoot]

Something like this is much better to me. Beautiful Illustrations and only slots for equipment

 

This is actually much better! I don't care that much for all the items being pressed along the walls of the UI paper-doll box, I prefer the Diablo 3-style in this case, definitely. In that way, we would get rid of the 3d model entirely, which if it fidgets and idle-moves, just distract from the invo business I'm doing atm.

[archangel979]

Diablo 3 UI does not work here. In D3 you have 5 classes and 5 illustrations for this UI, PoE would need a different one based on your race, class and gender (at least) and still people would complain their character has red hair while UI one has black or something. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

The Diablo 3 mock up looks bad. It doesn't show what my character looks like when I change items. No thanks. I prefer how it is now with changing items and seeing the model change as well.

[Sensuki]

Someone else mentioned that it'd be better to choose your portrait before setting physical appearance - that'd be the way to go IMO.

Agreed.

[Zwiebelchen]

The Diablo 3 mock up looks bad. It doesn't show what my character looks like when I change items. No thanks. I prefer how it is now with changing items and seeing the model change as well.

 

You can see it ingame at any time. Imho, the 3D preview has no real value to it, considering the only customization option you have is the two colors anyway.

 

I think a high resolution large-scale portrait of IWD 2 feels the most immersive.

 

 

Having both portrait and ingame appearance visible at the same time - at least at the current scale of the preview - really emphasizes the disconnect between portrait and ingame model.

 

I like that mockup that was posted. Great solution!

 

 

This is btw how the appearance tab in IWD looked like. I think the focus should be on the portrait and not the 3D model - because I want to design the ingame appearance after the portrait, not the other way round.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Zwiebelchen