The degree of character classes customization?

[Quetzalcoatl]

Boy, you sure are stating a ton of bizarre claims here. Either that or your D&D knowledge does not extend past its various lackluster computer game implementations. In my Pen and Paper days, stats like intelligence and wisdom were of primary importance to any class who wishes to solve any complex problem that arises in the wilds, or in a dungeon.

Are you seriously using tabletop to support your case? Can you really not comprehend that computer RPG's require a completely different approach? So yes, those 'lackluster implementations' are the point of comparison here.      

 

And spot checks, Listen Checks, Survival, Heal, Sense motive and probably a half dozen more I'm forgetting at the moment . For everyone.

I thought we were discussing the value of stats for the purposes of combat? Since you changed the subject, I take it you agree with me in that regard. The problem with skills in computer RPG's is that you usually only need one instance of it. For example, you only need one person capable of picking locks and after that, it would be a waste for any of your remaining 5 partymembers to invest any points in it. So it's not a compelling argument at all. Again, this ain't tabletop.

 

And that's exactly how it is in PoE, as well. Josh flat out said that every class can sneak (for example) but none will excel at it as well as rogues.

I don't believe so. Rogues have a starting bonus but after that their skills in Mechanics and Stealth don't increase any faster than other classes. That may have been changed though.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Stun]

Are you seriously using tabletop to support your case?

I'm using the D&D rule set. Yes. Because that's what was cited. Had someone come on here and said "Icewind dale shoe horned your Builds" or Planescape Torment Shoe horns your builds", my argument would have been totally different, assuming I bothered to respond.

 

 

Can you really not comprehend that computer RPG's require a completely different approach?

Not at all. We were discussing builds and the effects of the Attributes on them. There's nothing stopping a developer from accurately implementing all the uses for intelligence that are listed in the D&D player's handbook or the DM's guide. And if they did, it'd probably be the greatest cRPG ever made. And you'd see a lot less dump-statting being done by power gamers in that game.

 

 

 

 

And spot checks, Listen Checks, Survival, Heal, Sense motive and probably a half dozen more I'm forgetting at the moment . For everyone.

I thought we were discussing the value of stats for the purposes of combat?

 

Survival, heal, spot, and listen don't have combat purposes? Sure they do. Again, maybe they didn't in, say, Icewind dale 2, but they were designed to in the D&D rule set. Your Spot skill can let you see where that enemy rogue is hiding his dagger or which of his pockets has that vial of poison he's coating his weapon with. Listen helps you get an awareness edge over an enemy group, so that they don't ambush you and gain all those potentially nasty initiative/surprise bonuses. Heal lets you stop a downed ally (or even yourself) from dying. Survival lets you know your terrain better (ie, the battle field; and what you can use in it that may give you an edge, or a disadvantage)

 

 

 

And that's exactly how it is in PoE, as well. Josh flat out said that every class can sneak (for example) but none will excel at it as well as rogues.

I don't believe so. Rogues have a starting bonus but after that their skills in Mechanics and Stealth don't increase any faster than other classes. That may have been changed though.

 

It hasn't changed.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3593502&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=3#post424534478

 

What do you think that starting bonus is? It's exclusive to rogues, which means right from the start they'll be better than the other classes at it, and can continue to be better if they keep putting points in it. What we *don't* know yet is whether any of the Attributes will affect success/failure of something like Stealth. In D&D it did.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Stun

[Doppelschwert]

To get back on the topic:

It was previously stated (or rather, I can recall an interview where one of the devs said) that the design of talents available to everyone is the last thing that is done, after the classes are properly tested and balanced.

 

It was also stated that the devs are unsure about how open the class talents will be. For example, at one point they were thinking about letting you choose a talent from a list of exclusive class talents at some levels for certain classes, thus changing the order of talents available to you. There were also some ideas about having prerequisites of talents in the form of stats OR lvl.

 

For example, a fighter could be able to select a special fighter talent at every level, where for each talent you have to have some stats or a minimum lvl.

So talent1 may be available at lvl2, talent2 may be available at lvl3, but you could also take it at as soon as lvl2 when you habe 14 Might.

 

So even with a limited amount of 1 extra talent per 3 levels, just reordering class talents may give a lot of customization and change the tactics available if they are going for this route.

I would also expect the talents system to undergo several revisions until the end of beta, so I don't think we can expect any information anytime soon.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Doppelschwert

[konst3d]

in D&D you were pretty much shoehorned into certain builds though, because taking high intelligence for your barbarian or low wisdom for your monk was just plain stupid. In that sense PoE promises to give you a much broader range of charater builds than any D&D game ever had. Time will tell of course, but it sounds really promising.

That is quite... strong statement.

http://nwn2db.com/builds - here are 24,901 builds in total at the moment. And it's only public available builds. And I don't know how many builds are already deleted due to it's age. And finally, NWN2 is just one of the D&D games and there are a lot of classes, feats and other features aren't implemented.

Edited July 7, 2014 by konst3d

[JFSOCC]

 

in D&D you were pretty much shoehorned into certain builds though, because taking high intelligence for your barbarian or low wisdom for your monk was just plain stupid. In that sense PoE promises to give you a much broader range of charater builds than any D&D game ever had. Time will tell of course, but it sounds really promising.

That is quite... strong statement.

http://nwn2db.com/builds - here are 24,901 builds in total at the moment. And it's only public available builds. And I don't know how many builds are already deleted due to it's age. And finally, NWN2 is just one of the D&D games and there are a lot of classes, feats and other features aren't implemented.

 

I've been browsing barbarian builds, I have yet to come across a high intelligence (14 on a heavily multiclassed barbarian was the max)

proving my point.

[J.E. Sawyer]

in one sense, this sounds like a good thing. nevertheless, one does wonder what is the point of classes if you can customize outta class roles.

 

also, 'cause is becoming a theme for Gromnir, we feel compelled to mention that we has been told by obsidian via interviews and such that we know everything about poe other than story spoilers. and yet we find it more than a little perplexing that we know so little detail 'bout how we will be able to customize characters.  

 

weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The ultimate amount of customization will depend heavily on how many Talents we are able to implement.  This is the last character-oriented gameplay content we are implementing and almost all of it will be developed in reaction to how the core classes wind up being used by QA and backers.  If we wind up with a lot of good, solid Talents, there will be more flexibility in how core class abilities are received/selected/modified.  The Talent system is fully implemented and we have a lot of flexibility in how the class structure allocates things as characters level, but we still need to finalize the content.

[anameforobsidian]

 

in one sense, this sounds like a good thing. nevertheless, one does wonder what is the point of classes if you can customize outta class roles.

 

also, 'cause is becoming a theme for Gromnir, we feel compelled to mention that we has been told by obsidian via interviews and such that we know everything about poe other than story spoilers. and yet we find it more than a little perplexing that we know so little detail 'bout how we will be able to customize characters.  

 

weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The ultimate amount of customization will depend heavily on how many Talents we are able to implement.  This is the last character-oriented gameplay content we are implementing and almost all of it will be developed in reaction to how the core classes wind up being used by QA and backers.  If we wind up with a lot of good, solid Talents, there will be more flexibility in how core class abilities are received/selected/modified.  The Talent system is fully implemented and we have a lot of flexibility in how the class structure allocates things as characters level, but we still need to finalize the content.

 

 

In a future update can we get some examples of talents?

[konst3d]

 

 

in D&D you were pretty much shoehorned into certain builds though, because taking high intelligence for your barbarian or low wisdom for your monk was just plain stupid. In that sense PoE promises to give you a much broader range of charater builds than any D&D game ever had. Time will tell of course, but it sounds really promising.

That is quite... strong statement.

http://nwn2db.com/builds - here are 24,901 builds in total at the moment. And it's only public available builds. And I don't know how many builds are already deleted due to it's age. And finally, NWN2 is just one of the D&D games and there are a lot of classes, feats and other features aren't implemented.

 

I've been browsing barbarian builds, I have yet to come across a high intelligence (14 on a heavily multiclassed barbarian was the max)

proving my point.

 

Nope. That proves nothing.

You can't find high INT barbs just because of there are other classes that suite the high INT builds better then barbs - warriors, swashbucklers, rangers, thugs (it's just base classes, and there are a lot of prestige classes). So there is no point to build high INT character on the barbarian basis. However you still are able do this.

 

P.S.

Well, it's kinda strange to claim that game with 12 classes and even without multi-classing confirmed will provide "much broader range of charater builds" then a game with about hundred classes, rich multi-classing abilities, more then a dozen races and more then few hundred feats and spells.

[konst3d]

Definitely D&D barbarians are STR\DEX oriented classes and they benefit from high INT less then other melee classes. But I believe it's not enough to say that D&D class customization is not high enough.

And by the way, there are a lot of low (10-12) WIS monks that are using DEX as its primiry stat. Especially two-weapon kama oriented monks, monks-assasins and so on. High level DEX-dependent feats are to good - self concealment, expose weakness, epic dodge, etc...

After all, I'm not sure that PoE barbs will benefit from INT more then D&D barbs.

[Lephys]

P.S.

Well, it's kinda strange to claim that game with 12 classes and even without multi-classing confirmed will provide "much broader range of charater builds" then a game with about hundred classes, rich multi-classing abilities, more then a dozen races and more then few hundred feats and spells.

I believe the whole idea is that the build-range is broader with a given character, rather than having to make a new one and pick a different class in order to experience that breadth. It's not really all that strange of a thing to say.

 

They're not comparing quantities of builds. They're comparing breadth of a given character's build options at any given point in time.

[konst3d]

 

P.S.

Well, it's kinda strange to claim that game with 12 classes and even without multi-classing confirmed will provide "much broader range of charater builds" then a game with about hundred classes, rich multi-classing abilities, more then a dozen races and more then few hundred feats and spells.

I believe the whole idea is that the build-range is broader with a given character, rather than having to make a new one and pick a different class in order to experience that breadth. It's not really all that strange of a thing to say.

 

They're not comparing quantities of builds. They're comparing breadth of a given character's build options at any given point in time.

 

Yep, I realize this. But...

Compare how many races, feats and skills D&D have - you can create wide range of builds even within the single class. And you should also realize that D&D character development usually involves few classes. Multiclassing is very strong tool to create your own unique and vital character.

And currently I feel (that is based on PoE role-system info that was given us so far) that PoE classes will not be that flexible.

Hope I'm wrong here.

 

Ok, lets stop comparing PoE role-system with anything else, it's not yet ready finally.

[Lephys]

Haha. No worries. I understand. I hope you're wrong, too, though, for what it's worth.

[DCParry]

Hello everybody (my first posting here)!

At the moment we finally have all of the class updates published. And reading these updates I feel that each character class is somewhat specialized. Fighters are "tanks"; Barbarians are melee damage dealers and so on...

I love D&D\AD&D games and mostly I love it for its reach character customization abilities, you can take a single class and create thousands of different characters that could take different party positions (tank, healer, melee damage dealer, buffer\debuffer, etc) out of it.

I realize that PoE isn't a D&D\AD&D but... The question is - how much could you customize your character within its class in PoE?

Will there be anything like D&D feats, or MMORPG-like skill-trees, or something that will allow you build different characters within the same class?

 

Using AD&D as a paragon of flexibility is ironically entertaining to me as an old person. I know the 3.5 and on changed the landscape so to speak, but still I get a kick out of this.

[DCParry]

You can be a wizard with plate armor and a broadaxe (whether or not that's effective is questionable.) I think that's all that needs to be said. Actually, I'd like to be a fighter whose primary weapon type is "grimoire."

 

Well, maybe not a fighter, but perhaps...  

 

 

a barbarian?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=SG&v=mZHoHaAYHq8&hl=en-GB

 

EDIT - Double posting is only for smexiest of kobolds. 

Edited July 10, 2014 by DCParry

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Using AD&D as a paragon of flexibility is ironically entertaining to me as an old person. I know the 3.5 and on changed the landscape so to speak, but still I get a kick out of this.

 

4th ed did help to customise characters with INT and CHA for melee characters and are useful for different builds now. eg. Swordmage (INT), Rogue (CHA), .. And there are a lot of builds now that use CHA as one of your two primary stats.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[konst3d]

 

Using AD&D as a paragon of flexibility is ironically entertaining to me as an old person. I know the 3.5 and on changed the landscape so to speak, but still I get a kick out of this.

 

4th ed did help to customise characters with INT and CHA for melee characters and are useful for different builds now. eg. Swordmage (INT), Rogue (CHA), .. And there are a lot of builds now that use CHA as one of your two primary stats.

 

Yep, currently playing one on Realms of Trinity NWN2 server: perfect two weapon fighting + epic divine might + level 9 divine spellcasting -paladin(5)\favored soul(5)\mystic knight(10)\ hospitaller(10) - charisma, dexterity and strength are main attributes, charisma are primary attribute for FS spellcasting, paladin abilities and solid EDM melee damage, I wish I could take a bard levels - to have its "snowflake wardance" that adds charisma bonus to attack. Also gonna try to build melee wizard\swashbuckler\swiftblade which will have its melee prowess coming from the high intelligent.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NWN2 is not even 4th edition...

 

[Sabotin]

3e was more about making a combination of a dozen prestige classes when it comes to customizing your character though.

 

 

I'd like to see lots of gameplay changing feats available when it comes to customization. Like replacing one ability with another, changing an aspect of the class, giving an active ability, that kind of thing. I would not like to see the stacking of small bonuses (like fighters in 3e taking 3-5 feats to improve one weapon) when the feats are so sparse.

Rather than your character being defined by your class it should instead be an aproximation of what you want to do with your character. An underground fighter and a master assassin don't need their own class, they can both be rogues, just with different setups and tactics. Maybe I'll go for something like a whirling dervish from 3e. I think the best base would be barbarians, with more focus on dexterity and speed. The frenzy can dub as the "dance". Maybe there will be some feat that changes the toughness to evasion, too? Etc.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Sabotin

[DCParry]

 

 

Using AD&D as a paragon of flexibility is ironically entertaining to me as an old person. I know the 3.5 and on changed the landscape so to speak, but still I get a kick out of this.

 

4th ed did help to customise characters with INT and CHA for melee characters and are useful for different builds now. eg. Swordmage (INT), Rogue (CHA), .. And there are a lot of builds now that use CHA as one of your two primary stats.

 

Yep, currently playing one on Realms of Trinity NWN2 server: perfect two weapon fighting + epic divine might + level 9 divine spellcasting -paladin(5)\favored soul(5)\mystic knight(10)\ hospitaller(10) - charisma, dexterity and strength are main attributes, charisma are primary attribute for FS spellcasting, paladin abilities and solid EDM melee damage, I wish I could take a bard levels - to have its "snowflake wardance" that adds charisma bonus to attack. Also gonna try to build melee wizard\swashbuckler\swiftblade which will have its melee prowess coming from the high intelligent.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NWN2 is not even 4th edition...

 

 

 

I am truly sorry, but that just sounds utterly, freaking, terrible. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I am truly sorry, but that just sounds utterly, freaking, terrible. 

 

What part? 3.x or 4th edition. I'm not fond of 3.x but I do like 4th edition.

[konst3d]

 

 

 

Using AD&D as a paragon of flexibility is ironically entertaining to me as an old person. I know the 3.5 and on changed the landscape so to speak, but still I get a kick out of this.

 

4th ed did help to customise characters with INT and CHA for melee characters and are useful for different builds now. eg. Swordmage (INT), Rogue (CHA), .. And there are a lot of builds now that use CHA as one of your two primary stats.

 

Yep, currently playing one on Realms of Trinity NWN2 server: perfect two weapon fighting + epic divine might + level 9 divine spellcasting -paladin(5)\favored soul(5)\mystic knight(10)\ hospitaller(10) - charisma, dexterity and strength are main attributes, charisma are primary attribute for FS spellcasting, paladin abilities and solid EDM melee damage, I wish I could take a bard levels - to have its "snowflake wardance" that adds charisma bonus to attack. Also gonna try to build melee wizard\swashbuckler\swiftblade which will have its melee prowess coming from the high intelligent.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NWN2 is not even 4th edition...

 

 

 

I am truly sorry, but that just sounds utterly, freaking, terrible. 

 

But why?

The character is pretty powerfull both melee and spellcasting wise, nice saving throws and overal defense, 10 attacks a round with dual holy avenger scimitars. And it's a Yuan-ti Pureblood, so very high magic resistance, blind fight and some other goodies.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

 

Using AD&D as a paragon of flexibility is ironically entertaining to me as an old person. I know the 3.5 and on changed the landscape so to speak, but still I get a kick out of this.

 

4th ed did help to customise characters with INT and CHA for melee characters and are useful for different builds now. eg. Swordmage (INT), Rogue (CHA), .. And there are a lot of builds now that use CHA as one of your two primary stats.

 

Yep, currently playing one on Realms of Trinity NWN2 server: perfect two weapon fighting + epic divine might + level 9 divine spellcasting -paladin(5)\favored soul(5)\mystic knight(10)\ hospitaller(10) - charisma, dexterity and strength are main attributes, charisma are primary attribute for FS spellcasting, paladin abilities and solid EDM melee damage, I wish I could take a bard levels - to have its "snowflake wardance" that adds charisma bonus to attack. Also gonna try to build melee wizard\swashbuckler\swiftblade which will have its melee prowess coming from the high intelligent.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NWN2 is not even 4th edition...

 

 

 

I am truly sorry, but that just sounds utterly, freaking, terrible. 

 

But why?

The character is pretty powerfull both melee and spellcasting wise, nice saving throws and overal defense, 10 attacks a round with dual holy avenger scimitars. And it's a Yuan-ti Pureblood, so very high magic resistance, blind fight and some other goodies.

 

 

Because its mishmash of everything powerfull to make powergaming gimmic character which have no roots in any culture or realm of reason

[konst3d]

2Chilloutman, Oh.. ok, got it. Well, obviously that was a powergaming character, not a roleplaying one.

I was thinking to tell here about my chaotic-evil svirfneblin barbarian\blackguard\hospitaller but I'm not sure now... relax, just kidding.

 

P.S.

Powergaming is just another way to play games. Yep there is another way, except the orthodoxal-true-roleplaying one.

[Karkarov]

I am slightly disappointed this thread about character customization has actually been a thread about twinking, which has little to nothing to do with "character".  I for one am ecstatic D&D 3.0 rules are out the window, it was a game that was literally about nothing but power gaming and it sucked.  Hopefully there will be real depth to how you can tool out your character for this game though beyond just the opening questions from Calisca.

[DCParry]

 

 

 

 

Using AD&D as a paragon of flexibility is ironically entertaining to me as an old person. I know the 3.5 and on changed the landscape so to speak, but still I get a kick out of this.

 

4th ed did help to customise characters with INT and CHA for melee characters and are useful for different builds now. eg. Swordmage (INT), Rogue (CHA), .. And there are a lot of builds now that use CHA as one of your two primary stats.

 

Yep, currently playing one on Realms of Trinity NWN2 server: perfect two weapon fighting + epic divine might + level 9 divine spellcasting -paladin(5)\favored soul(5)\mystic knight(10)\ hospitaller(10) - charisma, dexterity and strength are main attributes, charisma are primary attribute for FS spellcasting, paladin abilities and solid EDM melee damage, I wish I could take a bard levels - to have its "snowflake wardance" that adds charisma bonus to attack. Also gonna try to build melee wizard\swashbuckler\swiftblade which will have its melee prowess coming from the high intelligent.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NWN2 is not even 4th edition...

 

 

 

I am truly sorry, but that just sounds utterly, freaking, terrible. 

 

But why?

The character is pretty powerfull both melee and spellcasting wise, nice saving throws and overal defense, 10 attacks a round with dual holy avenger scimitars. And it's a Yuan-ti Pureblood, so very high magic resistance, blind fight and some other goodies.

 

 

Echoing a couple other responses, to me, and this is just my personal opinion, that is not a character, but a tool. A tool specifically designed to slaughter your enemies in a video games, which is cool, but not my cup of tea. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I don't get it. Proponents of 3.x prefer this edition because they say it gives customisation. You can create nearly anything you want. Then the detractors say you're powergaming and not roleplaying. What am I missing here?

 

I'm not a proponent of 3.x as I'm one in the minority who never really liked it and prefer other editions.