Your PoE Pros and Cons: 5 and 5

[Gromnir]

 

 

the "feminist" says he wants women gamers to have their characters experience misogyny.

Quite a crass depiction of my point. You chauvinistically assume all women do not wish to explore themes of sexism inherent to feudal societies and you naively believe people only play as their own sex.

 

Anyways I too am tired of this argument (for tonight at least) and am going to bed.

 

 

To be fair Gromnir he isn't saying that

 

actually no, he ain't. we offered alternatives earlier. sexism as a theme can be explored quite easily without subjecting those who has been historical victims o' misogyny to simulated misogyny. he wants realism. 

 

you said:

 

This brings me to my next question, what is the reason you are asking for this? Is it purely because you want a realistic game that captures the real themes of the feudal system?

 

he said

 

More or less. It was part of the structure hence I'd rather explore it rather than ignore it. Outside of that it's also because I'm a feminist and I find the history gender inequality and its structural manifestations interesting and worthy of examination.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

the "feminist" says he wants women gamers to have their characters experience misogyny.

Quite a crass depiction of my point. You chauvinistically assume all women do not wish to explore themes of sexism inherent to feudal societies and you naively believe people only play as their own sex.

 

Anyways I too am tired of this argument (for tonight at least) and am going to bed.

 

 

To be fair Gromnir he isn't saying that

 

actually no, he ain't. we offered alternatives earlier. sexism as a theme can be explored quite easily without subjecting those who has been historical victims o' misogyny to simulated misogyny. he wants realism. 

 

you said:

 

This brings me to my next question, what is the reason you are asking for this? Is it purely because you want a realistic game that captures the real themes of the feudal system?

 

he said

 

More or less. It was part of the structure hence I'd rather explore it rather than ignore it. Outside of that it's also because I'm a feminist and I find the history gender inequality and its structural manifestations interesting and worthy of examination.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

I know it may seem that he his contradicting himself but I don't think he is. He is a feminist but wants a realistic feudal themed game. Sexism was part of the feudal system but just because he is asking for that it doesn't mean he is supporting it. These types of issues raise awareness

 

But end of the day I agree with you that you could raise the fact of sexism, or other SJ issues,without emulating the exact historical context in the  game. In fact I would prefer a different way of raising these types of issues than the historical way

Edited June 28, 2014 by BruceVC

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

the "feminist" says he wants women gamers to have their characters experience misogyny.

Quite a crass depiction of my point. You chauvinistically assume all women do not wish to explore themes of sexism inherent to feudal societies and you naively believe people only play as their own sex.

 

Anyways I too am tired of this argument (for tonight at least) and am going to bed.

 

 

To be fair Gromnir he isn't saying that

 

actually no, he ain't. we offered alternatives earlier. sexism as a theme can be explored quite easily without subjecting those who has been historical victims o' misogyny to simulated misogyny. he wants realism. 

 

you said:

 

This brings me to my next question, what is the reason you are asking for this? Is it purely because you want a realistic game that captures the real themes of the feudal system?

 

he said

 

More or less. It was part of the structure hence I'd rather explore it rather than ignore it. Outside of that it's also because I'm a feminist and I find the history gender inequality and its structural manifestations interesting and worthy of examination.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

I know it may seem that he his contradicting himself but I don't think he is. He is a feminist and but wants a realistic feudal themed game. Sexism was part of the feudal system but just because he is asking for that it doesn't mean he is supporting it. These types of issues raise awareness

 

 

we ain't saying he is aware o' what he is doing. that is what makes it kinda sad. is so few places in real life that women gets treated complete equal, so why subject 'em to misogyny in a fantasy game? 'cause is maybe realistic in a Fantasy feudal setting? 'cause somebody has a social agenda that they is promoting? 

 

fallout were set in an alternative future reimagined from 1950s Americana.  

 

http://www.history.com/topics/black-history/civil-rights-movement

 

woulda' been a very different game. would it have been a better game? heck, as opposed to racism, sexism coulda' been just as easily a major theme o' fallout. you honestly think that fallout woulda been better if players who choose an african american or female avatar woulda' gotten "special" treatments more in line with 1950s America? and even if you genuine were thinking that game woulda' been better that way, do you really think that adding such woulda' been fair to female and african american gamers? some might appreciate the honest portrayal, but you think lack o' choice would have gone over well? do you think such disparate treatment woulda' gained some negative attention for fallout in press and elsewhere?

 

to make fallout and not have race be a central issue actual took effort. ask self why the developer/publisher chose that route.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

the "feminist" says he wants women gamers to have their characters experience misogyny.

Quite a crass depiction of my point. You chauvinistically assume all women do not wish to explore themes of sexism inherent to feudal societies and you naively believe people only play as their own sex.

 

Anyways I too am tired of this argument (for tonight at least) and am going to bed.

 

 

To be fair Gromnir he isn't saying that

 

actually no, he ain't. we offered alternatives earlier. sexism as a theme can be explored quite easily without subjecting those who has been historical victims o' misogyny to simulated misogyny. he wants realism. 

 

you said:

 

This brings me to my next question, what is the reason you are asking for this? Is it purely because you want a realistic game that captures the real themes of the feudal system?

 

he said

 

More or less. It was part of the structure hence I'd rather explore it rather than ignore it. Outside of that it's also because I'm a feminist and I find the history gender inequality and its structural manifestations interesting and worthy of examination.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

I know it may seem that he his contradicting himself but I don't think he is. He is a feminist and but wants a realistic feudal themed game. Sexism was part of the feudal system but just because he is asking for that it doesn't mean he is supporting it. These types of issues raise awareness

 

 

we ain't saying he is aware o' what he is doing. that is what makes it kinda sad. is so few places in real life that women gets treated complete equal, so why subject 'em to misogyny in a fantasy game? 'cause is maybe realistic in a Fantasy feudal setting? 'cause somebody has a social agenda that they is promoting? 

 

fallout were set in an alternative future reimagined from 1950s Americana.  

 

http://www.history.com/topics/black-history/civil-rights-movement

 

woulda' been a very different game. would it have been a better game? heck, as opposed to racism, sexism coulda' been just as easily a major theme o' fallout. you honestly think that fallout woulda been better if players who choose an african american or female avatar woulda' gotten "special" treatments more in line with 1950s America? and even if you genuine were thinking that game woulda' been better that way, do you really think that adding such woulda' been fair to female and african american gamers? some might appreciate the honest portrayal, but you think lack o' choice would have gone over well? do you think such disparate treatment woulda' gained some negative attention for fallout in press and elsewhere?

 

to make fallout and not have race be a central issue actual took effort. ask self why the developer/publisher chose that route.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You make some good points in this post, I agree with most of them.

[Cluas]

I am surprised that almost no one has mentioned the biggest con of them all yet.

 

-THE BIGGEST CON:

 

NO TOOLSET 

[ashtonw]

 

 

I'm not advocating stat penalties for female PCs, class limitations, ability limitations or what have you. Rather I'm advocating that the setting itself depict the primitive reactionary values inherent to feudalism and its consequences on the population. That does not mean the female PC is silenced or necessarily 'limited' mind you, rather they'd have a different experience where they are far more likely to discriminated by virtue of their sex but still obviously be able to fight against that.

 

The problem I have with most fantasy setting is that they will either ignore the suffering women felt under feudalism and simply sweep the inherent misogyny of such a system under the rug or they will show feudal societies as sexist but essentially silence the female sex under the guise of "well they didn't have a voice then".

 

What I advocate is showing the misogyny of feudal society all the while exploring its actual impact on females by still showing their agency under the oppressive system.

RPGs with 100% historical accuracy don't sell worth a damn. So you'll never see a company like Obsidian making one. Besides, can you imagine how *dull* such a game would be?

 

 

That is so very irrelevant. He's arguing for something which would, if anything, increase the intrigue in the game.

 

As for the other point being made, I would like to hear an actual woman's opinion on whether having the sexist environment in PoE that Barothmuk described would make them feel uncomfortable or not. Somehow I doubt it would. If it would make some women uncomfortable, should there not be racism in the game then too? It might make real minorities feel uncomfortable.

 

Also, also. RPGs with historical accuracy can and do sell woth a damn, just saying.

 

 

 

woman's opinion: video games are escapist fantasy so i would like a little break from all the crap that i deal with every day. If I want to experience sexism in a video game I will just go play literally any other game ever made.

[curryinahurry]

Pros:

 

Faction & local reputation system - by far the best thing Obsidian is doing in this game

Artwork & Isometric 2d presentation 

Worldbuilding seems consistent and fairly logical

Attributes allowing for lots of options in builds - we will have to test this

Stronghold system and the way its being woven into the game structure - promises to be better than Crossroads Keep and other precedents

 

Cons:

 

Combat Class Roles -  It smacks of corporate marketing speak (calling support classes the, "leaders of the band", really?)  and I fear it may hinder any real customization and pushing classes into grey areas that can be fun.

The Rogue - A fairly unimaginative re-thinking (in general I'm not that happy with the way many of the core classes have been re-thought,  I would have expected better from Obsidian)

The Ranger - Animal companion as mandatory feature is atrocious.  The ranger if a class I've enjoyed playing in previous D&D titles, not for their power but for their versatility.  All gone in this version.

UI -  I'm not against a minimalist UI in general, but we were promised something in the tradition of IE games and I think to 99% (even if they're not in favor of such a thing) of backers, that means a U-shaped decorative frame, and not a simplification of IWD 2.

No Overland Travel - would have been great with the scripted scenes, but maybe it was too much/ not in the spirit of the IE games.

[Quetzalcoatl]

UI -  I'm not against a minimalist UI in general, but we were promised something in the tradition of IE games and I think to 99% (even if they're not in favor of such a thing) of backers, that means a U-shaped decorative frame, and not a simplification of IWD 2.

Well, two out of five of the IE games had a bottom bar. You're also overlooking the fact that the IE games (and their UI's) were designed for a 4:3 aspect ratio and a 640x480 resolution. A U-shaped frame would be overkill with today's higher resolutions and widescreen aspect ratio's.

 

 

Here's a contentious con I didn't mention.

 

Although I'm confident in Obsidian's world-crafting ability I fear they may feel the need to inject some unrealistic levels of social progressiveness to make the setting more palatable. By that I mean, it is quite a common trend in fantasy games to have near total gender equality (among other things) despite it being a feudal setting.

 

Personally I find it incredibly jarring having a system as inherently oppressive and bigoted feudalism, a system that thrives on gendered roles and patriarchy, somehow attaining levels of equality that the modern industrialised world is still fighting for.

To achieve what you describe, would entail implementing significant reactivity for female characters and would mean a huge amount of additional writing and designing work. It's just not possible. The only way to pull it off would be -paradoxically- by letting you only play as a male character (or only a female one).  

Edited June 28, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[curryinahurry]

^ This discussion has been had over and over.  Let's just say I respectfully disagree with your assertions and leave it at that.

[tajerio]

Saying that feudalism inherently demanded misogyny and patriarchy is a strange mishmash of feminism with discredited Marxist essentialization. Most societies in all times and places have rested on those pillars. Saying there's something inherently misogynist about a sociopolitical system that is based on interlocking loyalties and landholding for governance, as opposed to something in human nature, is really quite silly.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

I'm not advocating stat penalties for female PCs, class limitations, ability limitations or what have you. Rather I'm advocating that the setting itself depict the primitive reactionary values inherent to feudalism and its consequences on the population. That does not mean the female PC is silenced or necessarily 'limited' mind you, rather they'd have a different experience where they are far more likely to discriminated by virtue of their sex but still obviously be able to fight against that.

 

The problem I have with most fantasy setting is that they will either ignore the suffering women felt under feudalism and simply sweep the inherent misogyny of such a system under the rug or they will show feudal societies as sexist but essentially silence the female sex under the guise of "well they didn't have a voice then".

 

What I advocate is showing the misogyny of feudal society all the while exploring its actual impact on females by still showing their agency under the oppressive system.

RPGs with 100% historical accuracy don't sell worth a damn. So you'll never see a company like Obsidian making one. Besides, can you imagine how *dull* such a game would be?

 

 

That is so very irrelevant. He's arguing for something which would, if anything, increase the intrigue in the game.

 

As for the other point being made, I would like to hear an actual woman's opinion on whether having the sexist environment in PoE that Barothmuk described would make them feel uncomfortable or not. Somehow I doubt it would. If it would make some women uncomfortable, should there not be racism in the game then too? It might make real minorities feel uncomfortable.

 

Also, also. RPGs with historical accuracy can and do sell woth a damn, just saying.

 

 

 

woman's opinion: video games are escapist fantasy so i would like a little break from all the crap that i deal with every day. If I want to experience sexism in a video game I will just go play literally any other game ever made.

 

clearly you is being chauvinistic.

 

...

 

hmmm. might be a flaw in the reasoning seeing as how ashtonw would appear to be a female gamer.

 

*shrug*

 

women were not treated simple bad in feudal europe. women were treated horrible. am thinking even if you wanna explore issues o' sexism, then trying to replicate the realism o' feudal european misogyny is not gonna be the best route... and is not even gonna be realistic for reasons we will discuss 

 

as other noted, there is a host o' other intelligent species running 'round, and their cultures coulda' developed much different... which would in turn influence human culture. the example dwarf ranger is female, yes? that alone at least suggests differences.

 

we already mentioned magic. am thinking it takes more than a little willful ignorance to assume a feudal Fantasy society with ubiquitous magic is gonna develop along the same lines as a real world feudal european society. we gave one very plausible game changer: safe and reliable birth control. add dozens and hundreds o' magical changes and am thinking it is a bit unreasonable to expect that PoE feudal would operate identical to real world european.

 

oh, and btw, gods is real in PoE. the guys who told us that we were getting a PoE world that were kinda entering a transitional period at tail end o' feudal also offered us 

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Cadegund

 

we is told that the gods is silent about animism, but perhaps they ain't so silent 'bout sexism? at the very least we got knowledge that women is part o' the priesthood o' a major deity, which is already an enormous departure from feudal european norms.

 

and again, all of this is ignoring that PoE is a Game. am not seeing much value in making women endure misogyny in a game, but supposedly that makes us a chauvinist.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mannock]

I am surprised that almost no one has mentioned the biggest con of them all yet.

 

-THE BIGGEST CON:

 

NO TOOLSET

I mentioned it.

[dyrhet]

 

 

 

woman's opinion: video games are escapist fantasy so i would like a little break from all the crap that i deal with every day. If I want to experience sexism in a video game I will just go play literally any other game ever made.

 

 

God, same. It's a world with wizards and elves, gender equality is kind of a small ask by comparison.

 

I recently ran a historical tabletop game set along the silk road in the medieval period, and I decided to have full gender equality up front. Because, yeah, misogyny existed then (as it exists now), and including it would be "historically accurate", but it'd do precious little to actually reinforce or enhance the themes of the game. Same for Pillars of Eternity, which is meant to be about stuff like colonialism, ethics in science, metaphysics, elves, etc, right? 

[Zombra]

You know what else is a shame they didn't include?  Child abuse!  Child abuse is rampant even today, and back in the Renaissance, there were no child labor laws, so presumably it was a million times worse.  Therefore, it is an appropriate theme for a game like this that everyone can enjoy.  It's too bad they didn't think of it!  Hopefully they will see this post and remember to include tons of child abuse in the next expansion.

[Barothmuk]

 

Sexism as a theme can be explored quite easily without subjecting those who has been historical victims o' misogyny to simulated misogyny. he wants realism.

”Subjecting those who have been historical victims of misogyny to simulated misogyny”.

 

I suppose you’d rather sweep the horrors of feudal society and its impact on women under the rug wouldn’t you! It’s much safer to dismiss those tragedies, silence the voices of those victims, best they be forgotten lest they hurt your modern sensibilities! What are you some kind of holocaust denier? Why aren’t you demanding the absence of racism or class conflict? Do you not care that you are subjecting those who have been historical victims of racism and class exploitation to simulated racism and class exploitation!? There’s people toiling away in poverty and here you are supporting a game that HAS serfdom! There’s probably murder in the game too! Are you just going to allow those who have suffered because of murder be forced to sit through simulated murder! There’s going to be little orphan children out there balling their eyes out having Vietnam style flashbacks because YOU wanted combat and violence.

 

WHY DO YOU HATE WOMEN, BLACK PEOPLE, POOR PEOPLE AND OPHANS YOU ****ING MONSTER!?!?!

 

See, I can be melodramatic too.

 

 

p.s how many people do you actually see being specific interested in sexism in

feudal societies? As a core theme or simply as a part of the setting? I honestly have no idea. I imagine it’d vary depending on the group asked. I personally was only advocating the latter (for this game at least)

 

Anyways, I suspect you’re only asking this because you seem to wrongfully believe women have unanimously decided that depicting sexist structures as sexist IS sexist and thus it is far better to pretend it never happened then actually have some settings explore how and why such structures existed and persisted.

 

But you know I’m clearly only saying this because I’m a fake feminist who’s covertly fighting against female equality in games.

 

Worth noting is that Obsidian has already admitted the setting will have gendered cultural expectations for male and female characters (which the PC can adhere to or ignore) so I guess they’re in on it too.

 

 

Sexism was part of the feudal system but just because he is asking for that it doesn't mean he is supporting it. These types of issues raise awareness

I’m not advocating its inclusion to “raise awareness”. As I have said, it was merely an inherent part of the system and I’d simply rather see it explored rather than ignored.

 

I strongly doubt Obsidian is including racism, class conflict or any “unpleasant” themes because they’re seeking to “raise awareness”; rather they simply feel these are things worthy of being explored.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Barothmuk]

You know what else is a shame they didn't include?  Child abuse!  Child abuse is rampant even today, and back in the Renaissance, there were no child labor laws, so presumably it was a million times worse.

The lack of appropriate child mortality rates in feudal settings is indeed quite annoying. Good to see you're on board!

 

And seriously **** this board's quoting system.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Stun]

I am surprised that almost no one has mentioned the biggest con of them all yet.

 

-THE BIGGEST CON:

 

NO TOOLSET 

In my opinion, the inclusion of a tool set would be a huge, huge pro.

 

But I don't see the lack of one as all that big of a con. There was no tool set for the infinity engine games, remember? But that didn't stop modders from utterly going to town on them anyway. There are thousands upon thousands of mods for BG1 & 2. Big and small. There's also fan made Game editors like Gate Keeper, Dale Keeper, Shadow Keeper and Near Infinity.

 

I'm not worried.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Stun

[Hiro Protagonist II]

The boards quoting system is a test of endurance. Not only when you engage in debate with other posters on this board, you have to engage with the boards quoting system. It's a battle on two fronts. Only those with the tenacity and will can overcome both of them.

[Zombra]

You keep saying that sexism is "inherent" to feudalism, but I don't see why.  I'm guessing that you're confusing inherence with historical coincidence.  I could be wrong, but I need more information to believe you.  tajerio made a good point above which you didn't really address other that to repeat a few more times that sexism is always inherent to feudalism.

 

Tell me, why is sexism a necessary part of every feudal system, historical or fictional?  (Remember: historical precedent is not proof.)

 

If possible, please try to give a digest version of the reason, in 100 words or less, in case I missed it in your earlier long posts.  I'd like to jump to comprehension of the heart of the matter (again, if possible).

[Gromnir]

""Anyways, I suspect you’re only asking this because you seem to wrongfully believe women have unanimously decided that depicting sexist structures as sexist IS sexist and thus it is far better to pretend it never happened then actually have some settings explore how and why such structures existed and persisted.

 

recent baro post were mostly nonsense, but this bit is actual worthy o' a response... and so we shall.  we believe that depictions o' sexism is appropriate in many forms o' media. there is no doubt various examples o' media that would benefit from the admitted very limited example o' realistic depictions o' sexism in feudal societies. a documentary or history lesson would benefit from such. is no doubt other kinds o' media. that being said, we surely has no idea what women has 'unanimously' decided, but we do believe that it is the women players o' poe who deserve the choice regarding whether they should be subjected to realistic european feudal misogyny in a game. forcing a female player, or those who play as females, to have their character treated to the inequities o' misogyny 'cause o' the social agenda or aesthetic notions o' baro and others strikes us as more than a little paternalistic.  we don't know 'unanimously' any more than does baro, but we ain't so arrogant as to think we should get to decide for women that they should be victimized in a game. nevertheless, you is right, we don't know 'unanimously.'  as such, if baro and/or the developers can devise a way to give each and every woman player the opportunity to decided for themselves if they will be tormented in the game, we would not mind such depictions.

 

is a crpg, and crpgs is 'bout making choices. this would seem to be a feature (snort) that could easily offend, so give choice to women would be a good idea, yes? got any ideas for such inclusion?  we don't and that is reason why we posted the following so many posts ago:

 

 

"and while Gromnir would not be bothered if PoE had gender disparity in which women or men were treated poorly, we sure as heck would not recommend that the developers make it so that a gender were suffering some kinda functional penalty by playing their own gender.  seems the better part of valor to avoid altogether. what would be point? so developers could be teh rheal? to show that gender inequality is bad? we already know that gender inequality is bad."

 

'course we is repeating self. nevertheless, it does seem the better part o' valor to avoid. 

 

as for your "melodrama"... am honestly at a loss with what you were trying to accomplish with going the route of the absurd. was that your genuine attempt at mocking mimicry o' some kind? *shrug* okie dokie. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ashtonw]

What is with this weird fixation on feudal societies. Seriously.

 

I'm sure glad you find gender inequality "interesting." That's so "feminist" of you. I wish I could find it as interesting as you do but unfortunately experiencing it first hand makes it lose its appeal.

[Bryy]

What is with this weird fixation on feudal societies. Seriously.

 

I'm sure glad you find gender inequality "interesting." That's so "feminist" of you. I wish I could find it as interesting as you do but unfortunately experiencing it first hand makes it lose its appeal.

And the lurker takes the shot.

 

Tell me, why is sexism a necessary part of every feudal system, historical or fictional? 

Because The Witcher's immaturity has to be justified somehow.

 

 

Here's a contentious con I didn't mention.

 

Although I'm confident in Obsidian's world-crafting ability I fear they may feel the need to inject some unrealistic levels of social progressiveness to make the setting more palatable. By that I mean, it is quite a common trend in fantasy games to have near total gender equality (among other things) despite it being a feudal setting.

 

Personally I find it incredibly jarring having a system as inherently oppressive and bigoted feudalism, a system that thrives on gendered roles and patriarchy, somehow attaining levels of equality that the modern industrialised world is still fighting for.

So let me get this straight.

 

We need sexism in video games because it would be politically incorrect to not have it.

 

What. Are you smoking.

 

And you say Obsidian - let's just assume for one second that they are going to make the male and female characters equal because, oh I don't know, it doesn't matter either way what gender your main character is? Are you seriously accusing them of being "weak" for actually having morals? 

 

You do realize that by advocating for sexism in a fictional world, you yourself are being sexist? Don't even bother giving me that "feudal setting" ****. That's just you hiding behind some vague pre-conceived notion of "the rules" in order to spew your ****. Don't think that you're any better than the users that argue against female main characters or ladies being warrior classes. You're not. You're so not. You're the kid asking why they can't say the N word "if blacks can call themselves that".

 

As for everything else you wrote.... I should stop writing lest I write out some extremely harsh words.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Bryy

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I do like games tackling controversial topics with grey areas in between and Obsidian seems to be doing this with PoE. Even Bioware had quests like in BG2 with giving a choice of freeing the slaves in the Copper Coronet. You could free them or leave them as slaves and be rewarded for either choice. But they never mentioned male or female. They were just slaves. And slaves existed in medieval times, both male and female and not just a particular colour either. While it might be good to cover topics like slaves, I don't really see a benefit to single out one gender and ignore the other. I have confidence that Obsidian will cover these topics, whether it's based on history with maturity and in good taste.

[Naesh]

Okay then, it's my turn at the pros and the cons.

 

Pros:

best fps mmorpg ever;

a game mechanics guaranteed to maximize the funsies;

big ass swords;

will have trolls in it; can play it while sitting on the toilet;

very big (and sharp!) swords.

 

Cons:

not long enough;

not enough swords;

lack of big swords;

too short;

every game character has perfect dental health... which is not really a con, but kind of odd, if you think about it.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Naesh

[Naesh]

Did i win?

Edited June 29, 2014 by Naesh