Racism?

[begginfokillz]

Will there be racism in the game, based on your chosen race? If so, how does it affect gameplay?

 

For Example:

 

What if your a dwarf, and you enter an inn run by a racist human? would you not be allowed to do business with the innkeeper because your a dwarf?

 

whilst on the same example, lets mix it up a bit:

 

If you make a new character, one that is a human, and you enter the same inn, would you be able to use the inn (i.e getting quests, food, supplies, rumors, etc?), that you could not access because you were a dwarf?

 

also, if racism exists, how does the player's actions affect it in the world? does it even affect it?

 

For example:

 

You make a white human wizard, and he is grand. he wears a special white robe with a magical hood that gives him +3 ropes and +7 fire. if you go around the world burning religious symbols on the front lawn of every inn, would he make everyone in the world think all humans were evil racists?

 

To go even deeper into the example, would the actions of this Grand Wizard cause everyone to think ALL wizards are evil? not just every human?

 

I was wondering also how big racism is in the game? 

 

I really like what you guys at obsidian are doing, and i wish you guys the best

 

 

[Lephys]

I doubt you'll have the power to somehow influence the entire world's views of your entire race, singlehandedly. But, I'm fairly certain there will be characters in the game world who express prejudice against other races.

 

It's almost a given, for believable characters. Especially in that, in a fantasy world like this, there are actually different races (species, even), instead of merely ethnicities.

 

You can safely bet those Death Godlike are going to have a rough go of things. 8P

[Elerond]

In my understanding racism and other from discriminations are more tide to which culture character comes than what their selected race is, so for example people from Aedyr empire can look people from Eír Glanfath to be uncivilized savages. 

 

Although it is told in updates that every other culture than Eír Glanfath looks down orlans as they are small and aren't native race in any other culture, still they have migrated nearly every where in Eora. 

[PrimeJunta]

There was a recent interview at Red Bull Games where they said that yeah, there will be racism. Also drugs and prostitution. I guess that would make the P:E subtitle Sex & Drugs & Rock* & Role.

 

*Adra

[Sad Panda]

Racism was confirmed in the Red Bull interview:

Our characters live in a world where conviction or desperation can drive people to terrible acts, where children aren't spared from the effects of violence, and where long-lasting tensions between races and cultures have led to the rise of xenophobic factions. It's also a world where even small acts of kindness can have a far-reaching effect.

Factions are apparently going to be as major a factor in gameplay as they were in F:NV, so I think we can expect that the player's choices will influence racial relations at least through their interactions with the more xenophobic factions and their counter-forces: Help a (anti-)racist faction gain power, convince them of the error of their ways, ridicule them in public, or wipe them out.

 

That being said, I don't think it impossible the PC's reputation would directly influence how people see their race. If your Orlan character performs enough good deeds for the backwater, narrow-minded human village that previously wanted to toss you right out the gates the minute you walked in, they'll likely come to admit that at least some Orlan are alright, which is, y'know, progress? >_>

 

Edit: Ninja'd! Humans! It's always them causing trouble, isn't it?

Edited June 13, 2014 by Sad Panda

[Barothmuk]

Generally speaking, although I have no issue with racism in fantasy settings I wish developers would explore other forms of bigotry. Racism (as we understand it in the modern sense) wasn't really a 'thing' in the medieval era.

 

With that said I suppose it works for the Poe setting seeing as it's quickly moving towards colonialism.

[Sensuki]

Regional, Factional and Institutional "Racism" is likely the type of thing you'll encounter.

 

East Side vs West Side and all that

[Sabotin]

I hope they keep it more subdued or subtle though, rather than the standard "Pfah, I don't talk to accursed pointy-ears, get out of my sight you scum!". I know, I know, medieval type realism and grittiness and all that, but honestly I'm kind of tired of all the time the same thing. I think peoples' brains wouldn't explode if they took a more modern and complex look at the issue.

[Elerond]

Generally speaking, although I have no issue with racism in fantasy settings I wish developers would explore other forms of bigotry. Racism (as we understand it in the modern sense) wasn't really a 'thing' in the medieval era.

 

With that said I suppose it works for the Poe setting seeing as it's quickly moving towards colonialism.

Racism as we understand was as much as thing in medieval period as it is now.

 

Romani people, Jewish people, Sami people, Arabs (plus north African people), Native Americans, red haired people, for example were along people that suffered mostly during middle ages in Europe or areas that Europe pursued to control. They were discriminated against, they suffered violence that was aimed towards them just because of 'race' they belonged and sometimes they were even executed because of it.

[Barothmuk]

Racism as we understand was as much as thing in medieval period as it is now.

Incorrect.

 

Discrimination certainly existed, as did the underpinnings of modern racism however modern institutionalised racism defined by distinct racial categories, a pseudo-scientific racial hierarchy and so on wouldn't properly come about until much later.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Namutree]

 

Generally speaking, although I have no issue with racism in fantasy settings I wish developers would explore other forms of bigotry. Racism (as we understand it in the modern sense) wasn't really a 'thing' in the medieval era.

 

With that said I suppose it works for the Poe setting seeing as it's quickly moving towards colonialism.

Racism as we understand was as much as thing in medieval period as it is now.

 

Romani people, Jewish people, Sami people, Arabs (plus north African people), Native Americans, red haired people, for example were along people that suffered mostly during middle ages in Europe or areas that Europe pursued to control. They were discriminated against, they suffered violence that was aimed towards them just because of 'race' they belonged and sometimes they were even executed because of it.

 

Don't argue with Cranky Kong. He'll just hit you with his stick while rambling about Killer Instinct.

[Nonek]

As I remember the Celts of the Po valley were quite discriminated against by Roman society before Hannibal's crossing of the Alps. and thus served as a fertile recruiting ground of skilled warriors for him during his protracted campaigning. I wonder if we'll see something similar in Poe? Or perhaps the forced exodus of Jewish moneylenders from England that Longshanks forced just prior to his loans becoming due, an almost prototypical piece of medieval ruthlessness. Or maybe Karla Magnus' crusade against the heathen saxons, or the Knights Teutonic's push east? Very fertile ground with masses of examples.

 

An ironic one, the harrowing of the north, where the Normanni sought to pacify/purge the Norsemen of the Danelaw.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Nonek

[Elerond]

 

Racism as we understand was as much as thing in medieval period as it is now.

Incorrect.

 

Discrimination certainly existed, as did the underpinnings of modern racism however modern institutionalised racism defined by distinct racial categories, a pseudo-scientific racial hierarchy and so on wouldn't properly come about until much later.

 

Discrimination against race is racism and it was very institutionalized even early parts of middle ages, even though "scientific" racial division started in 17th century, with incremental colonialism, but this didn't actually add discrimination in society as much was "enlightened" way to try justified it which was meant to replace previous religious justifications, as popularity of religions as justification withing so called intellectuals was in decline at the time. And of course increased interaction with Chinese, Indians, Native Americans and Africans were rapidly widening Europeans perspective what kinds of people there are in world, which of course added number of people that they saw to be lesser than them, and as there was so many that it started to be hard to keep count, without some kind of book keeping, which was probably another reason why our "enlightened" race researcher did their hard work to determine every race in earth that are lesser than them.

[DCParry]

 

Generally speaking, although I have no issue with racism in fantasy settings I wish developers would explore other forms of bigotry. Racism (as we understand it in the modern sense) wasn't really a 'thing' in the medieval era.

 

With that said I suppose it works for the Poe setting seeing as it's quickly moving towards colonialism.

Racism as we understand was as much as thing in medieval period as it is now.

 

Romani people, Jewish people, Sami people, Arabs (plus north African people), Native Americans, red haired people, for example were along people that suffered mostly during middle ages in Europe or areas that Europe pursued to control. They were discriminated against, they suffered violence that was aimed towards them just because of 'race' they belonged and sometimes they were even executed because of it.

 

 

Wait, who oppressed Native Americans between 476 and 1453 CE?

 

EDIT - OFF TOPIC: Also, it seems to me, the apparent inevitably of "racism" [as an aside, scholars do define racist attitudes that preceded the modern periods in different ways than modern racist attitudes, this is not a controversial statement] in speculative fiction often functions as a way to make those of us who come from cultures where racism and racist attitudes thrived a little bit better about our past. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by DCParry

[Nonek]

Was there ever a culture or country where racism didn't thrive? I thought the very first instinct would be, the stranger (looks different, sounds different) is the enemy, and thus the formation of tribes etcetera.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Nonek

[IndiraLightfoot]

Unfortunately, yes. It seems to be a stereotypical bias in our brains or something. We are hard-wired to demonize neighbours and pick on anything different. I reckon, it's been around since time immemorial. The same goes for exploiting the environment and pillaging and raping Mother Earth. Those indigenous communities were small-scale and had much simpler technologies at their disposal, but when you crank up the scale, and increase the technological level, the effects becomes multiplied almost logarithmically. When industrial nations with millions of people got around to their racism and environmental plundering, it came to be on a factory scale, where everything bad and evil got realized with a hitherto never seen efficiency and fervour. Another factor is that small-scale communities were literally much more afraid of nature, and had spirit beliefs and pantheons and what not, which all helped dampening the exploitation and tribe-vs-tribe cruelties somewhat. During the 19th century, when the eyes of God didn't feel as burning as before, and mass media consumerism hooked up with old collective values, our planet was in for huge catastrophes.

[Nonek]

Moments when you realise you're a jaded old cynic and pessimist #342: During Agent Smith's virus speech in the Matrix you shrug, sigh and realise he's probably correct.

[NWN_babaYaga]

a little bit of racism couldnt hurt. I mean it´s not that blacks are against whites or reds vs. yellows... So we humans can relax and enjoy some funny jokes about other "races" so to say without having this "you HAVE to be pollitically correct" or else everyone hates you now complex... making jokes of one another or having some prejudices behind closed doors we all (except some 0,001 % earth people) have when we are honest so why not adding some truth to the game. In the end we are all just humans with a history like them and it just doesnt work the way thinking YES we are all humans and there are no differences... well! ... thats not true imo.

 

I hope i dont sound like i support racial hatred. No i definately dont support hatred or violence based on colors or national pride in reality!

Edited June 13, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Nonek]

I think an interesting situation arises here because of different sapient species existing, with the varying races of humanity we have a shared species ability to mate and produce offspring, thus reinforcing our commonality. However with the other species, Dwarves, Elves etcetera, we do not have that. What differences does this raise? Has there been species specific prejudice, and if so how was it resolved? It seems something that really cannot be handwaved away, and I expect will not be considering the Orlan situation.

 

Does the common possession of Souls mean that these different species accept each other a little more than we for instance would accept a competing species? I'm thinking of something like the end of the Minbari war on humanity in Babylon Five.

[Sad Panda]

I think an interesting situation arises here because of different sapient species existing, with the varying races of humanity we have a shared species ability to mate and produce offspring, thus reinforcing our commonality. However with the other species, Dwarves, Elves etcetera, we do not have that. What differences does this raise? Has there been species specific prejudice, and if so how was it resolved? It seems something that really cannot be handwaved away, and I expect will not be considering the Orlan situation.

I think this would be something that would realistically depend on just how well the different species are integrated. It's been mentioned that there are dwarves and elves living among humans and they generally adopt the dominant culture, which one would expect to have a mitigating effect to any instinctive racist tendencies. As has been discussed in this thread, humans are hard-wired to regard kin more favourably, but the major caveat to this is that what constitutes "kin" is highly arbitrary, arising for nurture rather than nature. As a rule of thumb, we see as kin those with shared life experiences, though learned values also of course affect this. As an example, a white person who has grown up with other white people might view black people as "the other", something to be feared and hated, unless they have been instilled with a particularly enlightened outlook. Meanwhile, a white person who has grown up with black people would be likely to view them as equal -- again unless they have been instilled with an ideology to the contrary. As a more extreme example, a human who has spend a lot of time with, say, dogs since early childhood would be likely to naturally empathise with them, despite the lack of even a common language.

 

So to recap, widespread prejudise is likely to be directed toward those who are for idelogical reasons seen as inferior (though such ideology can of course be self-motivated; see The White Man's Burden, or antisemitism in feudal Europe) or those who are distant and poorly understood; man always fears the unknown, after all. I doubt the fact that the species couldn't mate with each other would be a major factor, and the absence of "species traitors" might instead work to alleviate tensions -- no one likes those darn elves rolling into town and stealing all our men/women, after all. . Lack of integration, either due to members of a given species keeping to themselves or forced segregation, is a much more likely source of prejudice.

[Nonek]

Yes I agree Mr Panda however to become a seperate species the fantastical peoples must have: A) Split off from the human race millions of years ago and been in isolation ever since, slowly becoming an entirely different folk. In the same manner that different races of humanity have unique skull shapes and genetic traits. B) Be born of a totally different branch of creatures, and thus probably not share the same habitat as early man again, because of the absolutes of competition. C) Some form of plane travelling by one species or other fantastical reason.

 

In all these scenarios one thing remains constant, they must have met at some point and this is the point where i'm sure conflict must have arisen. How was that resolved and would anybody in the world of Poe remember it, or have any written evidence? John Beddoes natural history of Arcanum springs to mind here, such an interesting idea to explore and build upon.

[Blarghagh]

I'm not sure if the rules of evolution apply in a world with gods.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm not sure if the rules of evolution apply in a world with gods.

What if there is a god of evolution?

[ShadySands]

 I'm not sure if the rules of evolution apply in a world with gods.

What if there is a god of evolution?

 

Were you there?

[ManifestedISO]

The arrow of time is the god of evolution.