Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Chilloutman]

sorry but if you dont see clear parallel between protecting sudeten germans by nazi army and protecting ukraine russians by russian troops then you are blind.

[Bester]

If Russia decided to protect russian speaking ukrainians in Ukraine, there would've been no deaths going on right now. Instead:

 

Czechs - didn't bomb cities VS. Ukrainians - bombs cities with civilians

Germans - invade  VS.  Russians - do not invade

 

>then you are blind.

Surely you won't mind taking a look at a few pictures and videos of civilians blown up to pieces, a woman without her legs calling to her daughter before dying for no reason other than she voted on a referendum that the so-called civilized nations didn't even bother recognizing? I'm going to PM it to you, please don't turn blind eye, since you're the one who's seeing things exactly for what they are, yeah?

 

There is a humanitarian catastrophe going on, and you somehow find balls to justify it? Please look at the material I'm sending you, maybe you're a bit detached from reality, but seeing those dead people shredded on the asphalt because they've decided not to accept the illegal overthrowing of the government will wake you up a bit.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Bester

[Rostere]

Meanwhile, in Belarus.

[Volourn]

"If Russia decided to protect russian speaking ukrainians in Ukraine, there would've been no deaths going on right now."

 

L0L Because non Russian speaking Ukranians in Ukraine aren't human right? Right.

 

Putin can't even protect Russians in Russian. How many murders has he coommitted in Russia? How much property has he stolen in Russia" How many innocent victims have been framed because of his scummery? How many fake elections have occured sinc ehe took power? L0LZ

[Bester]

Nice change of subject. People are dying - hey, let's talk about something else, like how much Putin stole.

 

>L0L Because non Russian speaking Ukranians in Ukraine aren't human right? Right.

Because they're not being killed. If they were the ones who were getting slaughtered, I would've advocated protection for them instead. I think you would too. But in this case, you prefer not to.

[Zoraptor]

Meh, that's all people have, having picked a side.

 

Most people do not (/can not) change their minds* once they've made them up, that is the core reason for propaganda and simply the way belief functions. So it isn't the Ukrainians bombing, using artillery and MLRS on cities, it's all self inflicted because it has to be since good guys/ bad guys. And anyway, PuHitler!!! because I'm sure Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk = Ukrainian Ghandis who achieved everything with passive resistance plus truth, justice and the Ukrainian Way, and if they're really indiscriminately shelling cities and recruiting neo nazis then there's a logical disjunction that makes my head hurt.

 

Of course in reality there aren't good guys or bad guys in the traditional sense hardly ever; ISIS are bad guys, but then it's not like the Iraqis or Syrians or even Kurds are whiter than white either- and quite often there aren't even better and worse guys, just different ideas of what is right and people who do crappy stuff at different times and to different people as balances of power shift. But people have narrative brains that tell stories, precisely why people remember identical events, even completely trivial events, differently from each other in recollection.

 

*Not necessarily exempting myself, either. I generally do try to be at least reasonably objective on matters of fact- so I don't really believe any story about MH17 as they've all got problems in terms of facts- but then I would believe that I'm objective, wouldn't I?

[Bester]

I wonder what happens in the heads of people who think that eastern ukranians don't have the right to go their separate way solely because it's unconstitutional. Poroshenko all but wiped his ass with constitution by shelling cities, and Maidan protesters wiped their collective ass with constitution by overthrowing the legitimate government. Constitution times are long gone in there, now just listen to people's needs and avoid bloodshed, simple, no? Not for everyone, apparently.

 

And who in their right mind says that constitution trumps common sense in THESE kinds of situations? It's like saying in some countries divorce is unconstitutional, so let's kill those women who try to escape their abusive husbands. Those two groups of people are clearly not made to live in the same country, they're diametrically opposed. Easterners want to be left alone, but are prepared to defend themselves, while westerners are prepared to just go east and kill people for the idea of "one country, one nation". Are you serious? What the **** is UN doing about it? Why isn't Poroshenko forced to order an immediate cease fire? Instead Russia gets sanctions. What the **** is going on?

 

What's wrong with people? It rises my blood pressure, I'll take a short break from this thread...

Edited August 15, 2014 by Bester

[Volourn]

"Because they're not being killed. If they were the ones who were getting slaughtered, I would've advocated protection for them instead. I think you would too. But in this case, you prefer not to."

 

Yeah, they are. Why do you lie?

[Chilloutman]

If Russia decided to protect russian speaking ukrainians in Ukraine, there would've been no deaths going on right now. Instead:

 

Czechs - didn't bomb cities VS. Ukrainians - bombs cities with civilians

Germans - invade  VS.  Russians - do not invade

 

>then you are blind.

Surely you won't mind taking a look at a few pictures and videos of civilians blown up to pieces, a woman without her legs calling to her daughter before dying for no reason other than she voted on a referendum that the so-called civilized nations didn't even bother recognizing? I'm going to PM it to you, please don't turn blind eye, since you're the one who's seeing things exactly for what they are, yeah?

 

There is a humanitarian catastrophe going on, and you somehow find balls to justify it? Please look at the material I'm sending you, maybe you're a bit detached from reality, but seeing those dead people shredded on the asphalt because they've decided not to accept the illegal overthrowing of the government will wake you up a bit.

People would not be droping dead if separatist use same methods as Maidan, instead they stole weapons and start shooting so thats their problem. And yeah innocent people are dying - its common in wars. If Russians want to live in russian they cen reallocate (as Staling put them in). Instead they want to take Ukraine land. Russia invade Crimeria so dont talk bullcrap. UK army bomb civilians because **** separatist hiding in cities instead of fighting in fields. That humanitarian catashtrophe is there because Russia support separatist. And just to point out how Russia dealt with separatism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

[obyknven]

People would not be droping dead if separatist use same methods as Maidan, instead they stole weapons and start shooting so thats their problem. And yeah innocent people are dying - its common in wars. If Russians want to live in russian they cen reallocate (as Staling put them in). Instead they want to take Ukraine land. Russia invade Crimeria so dont talk bullcrap. UK army bomb civilians because **** separatist hiding in cities instead of fighting in fields. That humanitarian catashtrophe is there because Russia support separatist. And just to point out how Russia dealt with separatism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

 

Facepalm. When foreigners tell fairy tales about Russia looks so stupid. 

How it's be IRL

1.Supported by West "democratic" president Yeltsin bloody suppress rebellion of Soviets in Moscow. These Rebels are fully supported by Chechen's, their leader - High ranked Soviet general Dudaev  planned  become new minister of Defense in new Soviet government. Chechnya stay only one region of ex-USSR where privatization are banned and Soviet order are stay untouched. But rebels fail and many of them flle into Chechnya and Chechnya become new center of resistance against pro-West puppets in Kremlin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatization_in_Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d'état_attempt

2. Obviously pro-West forces attack Chechnya after this - war is begin. During war all Soviets in Chechnya are killed (include Dudaev) and controlled by Kremlin/West right-wingers take power. Reasons to continue this war don't exist more and peace treaty is signed.

3. Everything is bad in Chechnya - some sort of Somali on Caucasus. Western neo-liberals  punish them for such resistance - war never ended here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_Republic_of_Ichkeria

4. Controlled by western neo-liberals Chechen's attack Russia - Putin defeat them, restore order and totally rebuild this republic.

 

Obviously West blaming Putin not for war in Chechnya, but because he kick arses of Western puppeteers from this region.  And some guys mindlessly continue blaming Putin for war in Chechnya though he stop this war IRL.

[Chilloutman]

yeah right oby, seems like all evil in world is from west. Russians killing Chechyians - west did it. Russians fighting in afghanistan - west did it. Russian transports moving into Ukraine over night - west did it. Russians killing their own separatists - west did it. Russians supporting Ukraine separatist - west did it. Oh cmon man. You should step out of west vs east. Noone was giving a crap about Russia last 20 years until you started another war

[obyknven]

yeah right oby, seems like all evil in world is from west. Russians killing Chechyians - west did it. Russians fighting in afghanistan - west did it. Russian transports moving into Ukraine over night - west did it. Russians killing their own separatists - west did it. Russians supporting Ukraine separatist - west did it. Oh cmon man. You should step out of west vs east. Noone was giving a crap about Russia last 20 years until you started another war

Look here. In 1993 year supported by West forces overthrow Soviet parlament and take power in Moscow. Their opponents fled to periphery into Chechnya (some of parlament leaders are Chechens) and pro-West neo-liberals continue fight against them here.

Same pattern in Ukraine now - supported by West oligarchs overthrow government in Kiev - their opponents fled to home region from capital and war continued here.

In both cases West run these processes and fully responsible for blood baths happened later. Ukraine now is copy paste from Yeltsin Russia (and thos mean Ukraine suck so much), same reasons cause same problems.

Another examples of **** caused by West is Somalia, Libya (US officially name them as terrorists now and evacuate diplomats), Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But as childs Westlings continue mumbling "This is not our fault" and try evade responsibility again and again

[Chilloutman]

 

yeah right oby, seems like all evil in world is from west. Russians killing Chechyians - west did it. Russians fighting in afghanistan - west did it. Russian transports moving into Ukraine over night - west did it. Russians killing their own separatists - west did it. Russians supporting Ukraine separatist - west did it. Oh cmon man. You should step out of west vs east. Noone was giving a crap about Russia last 20 years until you started another war

Look here. In 1993 year supported by West forces overthrow Soviet parlament and take power in Moscow. Their opponents fled to periphery into Chechnya (some of parlament leaders are Chechens) and pro-West neo-liberals continue fight against them here.

Same pattern in Ukraine now - supported by West oligarchs overthrow government in Kiev - their opponents fled to home region from capital and war continued here.

In both cases West run these processes and fully responsible for blood baths happened later. Ukraine now is copy paste from Yeltsin Russia (and thos mean Ukraine suck so much), same reasons cause same problems.

Another examples of **** caused by West is Somalia, Libya (US officially name them as terrorists now and evacuate diplomats), Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But as childs Westlings continue mumbling "This is not our fault" and try evade responsibility again and again

 

Haha so even some russians are 'west' now? Putin was fighting in Chechna in 2009. Is he that 'west'? Same fighting in Russian teritory separatism was bad, and now in Ukraine its good? I thing I am done on this with you

[obyknven]

 

Haha so even some russians are 'west' now?

Yep, some oligarchs and their servants are pro-West here. It's quite normal, but probably this is too difficult for Western citizens. On West too much nationalistic pattern of thinking ( all Russians are bad, all Muslims are bad, all Jews are good and so on).

 

 

Putin was fighting in Chechna in 2009. Is he that 'west'

Wut? Do you talk about few police operations against local criminals? What separatism do you talking about?  

[NWN_babaYaga]

The conflict in ukraine is much more then the media tells us and i bet russia is not interested at all in that orchestrated conflict. They have no reason and it makes no sense but on the other side of the planet there is alot of reason to find. But lets be honest. People are dying again because of greed and nothing more. Greedy oligarchs (bushes, clintons, rockefellers included) are all in the game. Oligarchs is just a name again to point fingers at the "evil" ivan...( in the western world they are called mafia bosses) I think russia is a great land, have great people and a great history (great dont always mean just good) and we europeans should be very cautious not to f*** up our relationiship with them just because the americans say so....

 

As a german it´s a shame what our politicans do and appreciate that many russiand know we are not all that stupid. We or I have seen trough the propaganda and to me it´s clear who is wanting what and who is honest. I think President Putin is one the last few "politicians" with honest intentions and has power ! He is a king of some sort. Maybe the last one in history !

Edited August 15, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Volourn]

'Honest' intentions'? HAHAHAHA

[NWN_babaYaga]

I know the feeling being betrayed by our politicians so it´s ok that you wish a man like putin for what he is. Laughter is good when you know all the presidents have screwed your country since Kennedy. For us germans it´s a little different... but we share the same destiny in the future when all the madmans of the secret clubs wants to push the red button. And i think you have seen the latest interview with your general Dempsey ? you should ! Then laugh as long as you can having such a guy... good luck

 

Oh you are from Kanada? well.... doesnt realy matter because the Queen and Prince Nazi of Saxe-Coburg tell your politicians what to do! Hehe you are actually been occupied by very bad german monarchs!

Edited August 15, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Hassat Hunter]

Hassat may I ask you where you are from before I respond?

The Netherlands.

Probably better known to you as "the country with the most countrymen on MH17" 

You say debt like it's a dangerous thing for them. Here's the thing though. You assume that once the American debt has reached a certain point, they won't be able to pay the interest fees and it will provoke a snowball effect? That is not correct, and here's why.

They've already defaulted, they've come to it dozens of times. All they do is increase the plafond, and solve nothing but making things worse. And again, and again.

I don't believe the rest you said, they lost a load of money on the terrible Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and the Obama administration now has the difficult task to mop up this fanancial failure. Heavily obstructed of course. And in the end, nothing changed. They pulled out, it's gotten worse (thank you Bush for "freeing" them *sigh*) and they probably have to return one day.

Poverty rises, debt increases, year upon year they spend more than they get.

 

It's a recipe for disaster. The question is only when it pops. 

Looks like a good chance for Latin American states to sell stuff to Russia. What exactly is the end condition for the sanctions ? Crimea returns to Ukraine ?

If I'm going to bet...

Ukraine becomes part of the EU and NAVO, which will prevent any "outsiders involving themselves with sovereign matters."

You know, hipocrite as usual, as they seriously would not even think about that them themselves their would qualify.

It still wonders me how politicans honestly can say 'Russia is involving themself in Ukrain matters, they should keep to themselves' and then send money and communicative equipment. Sure, it's not weapons, but what the hell do you think that gear will be used for? 

People would not be droping dead if separatist use same methods as Maidan

I recall a deathtoll on Maiden.

Also, if Yanukovych would instead of riot police send out tanks, airstrikes, artillery and such, yes, the deathtoll would be higher. Don't act like the deathtoll rises because of one side.

It's a bit easy to be peaceful protestors when you're not even being put down by Riot police (do you hear the complains about Ferguson? Now imagine instead of police it's the army. Yeah... like that.)

 

 

instead they stole weapons and start shooting so thats their problem.

 

Good thing that didn't happen at Maiden... oh wait, that exactly DID happen.

It's just much larger skill now since they upped it from one city to half the nation. And aforementioned riot police being swapped out by the army of course.

 

 

If Russians want to live in russian they cen reallocate (as Staling put them in). Instead they want to take Ukraine land.

 

Always this funny argument. And always it raises in me the question; "If the EU is so great, why didn't the Maiden reallocate to an EU country. Instead they want to take Ukraine land!

 

 

That humanitarian catashtrophe is there because Russia support separatist.

 

I thought it was because of an EU-coup, then pro-Russians in the East disagreed and the "West" responded by sending in heavy force to kill them all. America even approved of it. The same who complained about Maiden violence, yes.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Rostere]

The conflict in ukraine is much more then the media tells us and i bet russia is not interested at all in that orchestrated conflict. They have no reason and it makes no sense but on the other side of the planet there is alot of reason to find. But lets be honest. People are dying again because of greed and nothing more. Greedy oligarchs (bushes, clintons, rockefellers included) are all in the game. Oligarchs is just a name again to point fingers at the "evil" ivan...( in the western world they are called mafia bosses) I think russia is a great land, have great people and a great history (great dont always mean just good) and we europeans should be very cautious not to f*** up our relationiship with them just because the americans say so....

 

As a german it´s a shame what our politicans do and appreciate that many russiand know we are not all that stupid. We or I have seen trough the propaganda and to me it´s clear who is wanting what and who is honest. I think President Putin is one the last few "politicians" with honest intentions and has power ! He is a king of some sort. Maybe the last one in history !

 

What does the scouter say about his gullibility level?

 

Really, there is greed to some degree behind the motivations of every government. The only thing you can do is to look at the different countries, and see which ones are awful, and which ones are OK. There are 206 states in the world, and just as many approaches to government. Russia does not score very high in my eyes. If you want to live under "king of some sort" then you are truly hopeless. It's because of people like you we have authoritarian regimes in the world.

[NWN_babaYaga]

Because of people like me heh? Just because i´m a german i dont dream about a strong Führer ... but i know it´s hard for others to see the faults in their own governments because it´s feels good to swim with it. It´s because of people like me that there is a resistance at all because i question them at least. But yeah who are you to tell me anything. I dont need a brainwashed someone to point his finger at me!

 

You were once a very proud land with real people. Back to the norse age. Maybe you look there to find yourself again Mr. random niceguy

 

And your democrazy of illusions you can throw into the dumbster because in the future your democracy is nothing but a corporate fascism state but you dont get it...

Edited August 15, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Hassat Hunter]

It's because of people like you we have authoritarian regimes in the world.

Yeah, fortunately, most are now getting rid of said regimes...

 

And it really improved things in Iraq, Syria, Egypt...

 

Wait, hold on a second...

[NWN_babaYaga]

they all love the freedom and democracy being BOMBED into these now free lands of hundred thousands of civilian dead thanks to the western axes of the god. In gold, oil and money we trust and if we bring democracy to you but you dont want it we kill the last of you so we accomplish our god inspired mission of bringing peace and justice for all...

 

That old story of these day dreamers and utopists have caused how many dead people by now ?

 

but a strong and independant russia is an enemy yeah yeah ! Better a democracy with muppets of the bankers as a strong group of patriots .. i would choose the patriots anytime even their ways are not always politically correct of western standards by todays media machine.

Edited August 15, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Walsingham]

By a happy coincidence, here's a piece on The Atlantic, which discusses Russians who are paid stipends to frequent Western fora and talk crap.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/

[Zoraptor]

At least Russians get paid to do it, as opposed to being so brainwashed they do it for free. That Ukrainian in the article is a moron for doing it gratis. Guess he's just a brave patriot doing his duty, and we all know that the only brave patriots in Russia are those heroes standing up to Putin.

 

Plus of course the US already does it and has plans to automate the process as well.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Putin was fighting in Chechna in 2009. Is he that 'west'

Wut? Do you talk about few police operations against local criminals? What separatism do you talking about?  

 

 

That is true about Chechnya now, its much less violent. But Russia took 10 years to subdue one country, you had two wars with Chechnya and only finally succeeded when you adopted the tactics of the brutal and corrupt  Ramzan Kadyrov. Who is now current president of Chechnya

It doesn't say much for the military effectiveness of Russia at the moment, and you still think you will win  a traditional war the USA?