Is this racist?

[ShadySands]

If it is considered to be racist if a white guy made it then is it not still racist if a black guy made it instead? Serious question. Does the content change based solely on the skin color (or sex or religion) of the creator?

[BruceVC]

if you put things in perspective, democracy's major strength is also it's biggest flaw: in a democracy the people get the government they deserve, no better and no worse!

so if the government is made of clowns, then the people who voted them into office are also clowns... plain and simple.

now if 90% of the people of a country are black, then i do not see how social parody can be racist for depicting black people in a comical way... for all we know the guy who made the picture could be black

 

You make some good points, just for the record  80 % of the South African population is black. The biggest opposition party to the ANC in South Africa is called the Democratic Alliance (DA), I vote for them, and since the end of Apartheid they are the only political party that has been gaining votes in every election. And they have only been gaining votes because more and black South Africans are starting to vote for them. Especially the growing black middle class.

 

The ANC relies on lots of support from the rural black communities in South Africa. They won the last election we had 2 week ago  where they received about 62 % of the eligible vote. Now that may sound like a landslide but the ANC has actually been steadily losing support as time has gone on. Especially in the provinces in South Africa that contribute about 85 % to the total economy of the country, these provinces are the Western Cape and Gauteng

 

But the ANC is fortunate because many of there supporters still vote for them because of ideological loyalty, they don't vote for them because of success or failures of the ANC. But this dynamic is changing as more and more people don't believe the ANC is the right political party to transform and uplift the economy

Edited May 31, 2014 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

If it is considered to be racist if a white guy made it then is it not still racist if a black guy made it instead? Serious question. Does the content change based solely on the skin color (or sex or religion) of the creator?

 

Funny enough in my country that is a  factor,  there are numerous examples of black journalists making controversial statements about the ANC and not getting criticised. But if a white journalist says something controversial the reaction is normally much worse. But that's something we accept due to our history and the sensitivity we are aware of around race relations

Edited May 31, 2014 by BruceVC

[Meshugger]

 

 

If you ask me, almost everything is acceptable.

 

People everywhere need to grow a thicker skin and stop acting like the entire world revolves around their oh-so-precious feelings.

Nope, sorry, trying sounding smarter somewhere else.

 

 

Death to Voltaire! Death to the enlightment! We have a new King!

[JadedWolf]

 

Death to Voltaire! Death to the enlightment! We have a new King!

 

 

Meshugger, I think you better sit down for a bit. I have something I need to tell you, and it's not good news. It's about Voltaire...

[Nonek]

Personally I can't tell, I was recently insulted for being an Englishman and accused of being thus a fascist, despite the large amount of my family whom died in the second World War. However I just laughed it off as the ranting of a bigot, as the gentleman had allready proven himself to be by introducing himself with insults and condemning a whole group based on a few individuals comments. I may not have the correct victim mindset to be able to judge, then again this runs in the family, while my great uncle was being tortured after capture in Burma he always said he would never give his tormentors the satisfaction of seeing himself as a victim.

 

Strange and complex business.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Death to Voltaire! Death to the enlightment! We have a new King!

 

 

Meshugger, I think you better sit down for a bit. I have something I need to tell you, and it's not good news. It's about Voltaire...

 

 

[BruceVC]

Personally I can't tell, I was recently insulted for being an Englishman and accused of being thus a fascist, despite the large amount of my family whom died in the second World War. However I just laughed it off as the ranting of a bigot, as the gentleman had allready proven himself to be by introducing himself with insults and condemning a whole group based on a few individuals comments. I may not have the correct victim mindset to be able to judge, then again this runs in the family, while my great uncle was being tortured after capture in Burma he always said he would never give his tormentors the satisfaction of seeing himself as a victim.

 

Strange and complex business.

 

That's both an interesting and concerning story Nonek. Are you prepared to share more details like where did this happen and under what circumstances, what ethnic group attacked you and what do you mean by "few individuals comments".. is this something the BNP  said?

[Meshugger]

 

 

Death to Voltaire! Death to the enlightment! We have a new King!

 

 

Meshugger, I think you better sit down for a bit. I have something I need to tell you, and it's not good news. It's about Voltaire...

 

 

Touché!

[Nonek]

 

Personally I can't tell, I was recently insulted for being an Englishman and accused of being thus a fascist, despite the large amount of my family whom died in the second World War. However I just laughed it off as the ranting of a bigot, as the gentleman had allready proven himself to be by introducing himself with insults and condemning a whole group based on a few individuals comments. I may not have the correct victim mindset to be able to judge, then again this runs in the family, while my great uncle was being tortured after capture in Burma he always said he would never give his tormentors the satisfaction of seeing himself as a victim.

 

Strange and complex business.

 

That's both an interesting and concerning story Nonek. Are you prepared to share more details like where did this happen and under what circumstances, what ethnic group attacked you and what do you mean by "few individuals comments".. is this something the BNP  said?

 

 

It was SusurrusParadox on the SJW thread (wonder what happened to that?) Bruce, but as I said I found the gentleman laughable and nothing to be concerned about. I've been called a white (excuse my language) bastard before on the street, and still felt nothing but mild amusement, if I felt anything more i'd be allowing the abusers undue importance. Or i'm just an emotionless shell of a man?

[Meshugger]

You live in London, don't you? I couldn't imagine anywhere else in Britain a white guy would be called that. 

 

On the other hand, i find it cute when people try make fun of the color of your skin. Cracker? White bastard? White Devil? The last one sounds even a bit bad ass. Maybe it's that what irritate them the worst; they can say whatever they can, but they cannot verbally hurt someone white for being white.  

[Nonek]

You live in London, don't you? I couldn't imagine anywhere else in Britain a white guy would be called that. 

 

On the other hand, i find it cute when people try make fun of the color of your skin. Cracker? White bastard? White Devil? The last one sounds even a bit bad ass. Maybe it's that what irritate them the worst; they can say whatever they can, but they cannot verbally hurt someone white for being white.  

 

I commute into London and walk the last few miles, a bit of extra cardio to offset the chair bound nature of work. There are ethnic ghettoes all across England however where Englishmen are rather rare, and certainly not welcome, in the north where my wife comes from there have been large influxes of foreign nationals for the last half century or so*. There are also native villages whose make-up has not really changed since the recording of the Domesday book however, and personally I wouldn't be deterred from walking through any, my ancestors have shed blood and liberty to assure my rights and safety.

 

The finest insult i've personally heard was "Blue eyed devil," I felt remarkably empowered.

 

*As opposed to London which is historically an international hub and a multicultural city whom no one race can claim, not even the English due to the union.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Nonek

[Oerwinde]

You live in London, don't you? I couldn't imagine anywhere else in Britain a white guy would be called that.

 

On the other hand, i find it cute when people try make fun of the color of your skin. Cracker? White bastard? White Devil? The last one sounds even a bit bad ass. Maybe it's that what irritate them the worst; they can say whatever they can, but they cannot verbally hurt someone white for being white.

The big racial slur against white people now is Racist. Because most white people get pretty offended at being called racist, and despite studies showing modern white countries being the most tolerant on earth, there is still this stupid idea that only white people can be racist.

[HoonDing]

You live in London, don't you? I couldn't imagine anywhere else in Britain a white guy would be called that. 

Birmingham

[BruceVC]

 

 

Personally I can't tell, I was recently insulted for being an Englishman and accused of being thus a fascist, despite the large amount of my family whom died in the second World War. However I just laughed it off as the ranting of a bigot, as the gentleman had allready proven himself to be by introducing himself with insults and condemning a whole group based on a few individuals comments. I may not have the correct victim mindset to be able to judge, then again this runs in the family, while my great uncle was being tortured after capture in Burma he always said he would never give his tormentors the satisfaction of seeing himself as a victim.

 

Strange and complex business.

 

That's both an interesting and concerning story Nonek. Are you prepared to share more details like where did this happen and under what circumstances, what ethnic group attacked you and what do you mean by "few individuals comments".. is this something the BNP  said?

 

 

It was SusurrusParadox on the SJW thread (wonder what happened to that?) Bruce, but as I said I found the gentleman laughable and nothing to be concerned about. I've been called a white (excuse my language) bastard before on the street, and still felt nothing but mild amusement, if I felt anything more i'd be allowing the abusers undue importance. Or i'm just an emotionless shell of a man?

 

 

Sadly that thread was closed down, but it  offered some of the most interesting debates we have had in ages. Maybe you and I should start a another one dedicated purely to SJ issues?

 

I thought Paradox shook up the forums nicely with his perspective and I'm not referring to his suggestion that you and other members were knuckle dragging caveman. It was his opinion on matters like how lady gamers feel they are victims of abuse that was interesting and why they are justified in wanting there own space

 

Also I was about to engage in a very important discussion with you at the time around the point " white, heterosexual males are not typically or historically  victims of discrimination"

 

I was going to ask you several pertinent questions around this topic but then the thread was closed  

 

[Walsingham]

I think every white male peasant in history would disagree with you there, old boy.

[JadedWolf]

Oh no, not this discussion again...

 

Toot toot. All aboard the guilt trip train!

[BruceVC]

Oh no, not this discussion again...

 

Toot toot. All aboard the guilt trip train!

 

I have to be honest and admit if  you think that the reason I raise issues of social justice is to make anyone feel guilty then I have utterly failed to  explain my various points properly

 

 

I need to obviously try harder, discussions about social justice are only about awareness and you then decide if you want to do something about a particular issue, they are not about guilt at all

[Walsingham]

'Social justice' is people trying to 'balance the books' without the faintest idea of what is in the balance or what it weighs?

 

How much is a ten years of 'being denied the vote' measured against a ten years of 'given third tier schooling'? Is 10 minutes of 'children throwing rocks at you' more or less heavy in the balance? How many years of 'sitting one different bus seats' would you need to balance all three?

 

It's gibberish.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Walsingham

[Undecaf]

I need to obviously try harder

 

 

 

Please don't.

[BruceVC]

 

I need to obviously try harder

 

 

 

Please don't.

 

 

 

Don't worry, personally I am only going to create a thread about a particular social justice issue when there is something that I feel really needs to be discussed. But that doesn't stop other people

[Gorth]

Somebody seriously needs to get a grip on themselves somewhere...

 

Racist would be to call them clowns because of race. I don't see the cartoon doing that. I see it calling them clowns because of (sub)conscious choices done by the party members and their voters rather than genetics. If their first reaction is to try to put a foot down on free/opposition press, you are headed in a very bad direction.

 

Bonus question: How *would* you draw a stereotypical South African? White, Black, Asian? MCA's stickmen?

[BruceVC]

Somebody seriously needs to get a grip on themselves somewhere...

 

Racist would be to call them clowns because of race. I don't see the cartoon doing that. I see it calling them clowns because of (sub)conscious choices done by the party members and their voters rather than genetics. If their first reaction is to try to put a foot down on free/opposition press, you are headed in a very bad direction.

 

Bonus question: How *would* you draw a stereotypical South African? White, Black, Asian? MCA's stickmen?

 

You make some good points Gorthfucius, ancient civilisations were correct to seek your wisdom

 

This incident has basically gone away, the media house removed the cartoon and unequivocally apologized. I listened to the interview with the editor and she made comments like "

sorry for any hurt caused and we need to try harder to not offend people and understand our differences "

 

I think the outrage was motivated from a political perspective as the ANC is tired of being the " victim " of the media due to there own lack of good governance and accountability. Also remember the ANC didn't challenge this cartoon legally because we do have free speech but the media house  received so much criticism through social media and other mediums that they removed them and apologized

[Meshugger]

Sounds like there is quite a lot of butthurt in SA society. Even if the cartoon never was tried in court for....uh what really? Clown racism?, you guys really have a long way to go in order to become a more open society.

[BruceVC]

Sounds like there is quite a lot of butthurt in SA society. Even if the cartoon never was tried in court for....uh what really? Clown racism?, you guys really have a long way to go in order to become a more open society.

 

Well yes from outsiders perspective it may be appear we are over sensitive around certain topics. But due to our history that is understandable, I do think we get certain things right that most of you wouldn't agree with  but end of the day there is always the risk of misplaced and unnecessary criticism. This cartoon is a good example of that