The Possibility of a delayed (2015) release

[Gnostic]

Steam reviews for Early Access games are the best.

Even non Early Access review are good.

 

Watch Dogs review:

The first mission is quite a difficult one where you have to repeatedly try to log in to the Uplay mainframe.

http://steamcommunity.com//id/Fiskie/recommended/243470/

 

Thing is, for us to throw more money on a game that does not exist and still roam this forum about 2 years since kickstarter, we are most likely among the most fanatical of Obsidian supporters. If the majority of us has these apprehension to PE coming to EA, how will normal gamers think about PE in EA?

Edited May 31, 2014 by Gnostic

[prodigydancer]

 

Since Obsidian hasn't even released any gameplay videos (that one short short "teaser" they made ages ago doesn't really count) I think it's safe to guess 2016 is the earliest.

 

Good first post. Very thoughtful.

Good sarcastic reply. Very convincing.

 

---

 

Look at Wastleand 2. If all goes well, it's going to be released in August. They have an early access beta (and it's not like they released it just yesterday), most features are already complete and yet the release date is 3 months away.

 

Now let's look at PoE. I understand it's a very large and ambitious project but we're talking about its state not about its scope and goals here. And it definitely looks like the game as a whole is still in early alpha stage. I mean they can't even throw us a bone in the form of a decent gameplay video. Which is not very reassuring, is it? OK, 2016 is not the earliest - I exaggerated a bit here but late 2015 sounds about right to me.

[Bill Gates' Son]

1.Building the game and engine from scratch (While they are using the Unity Engine, they still had to build "gameplay engine" of PoE).

2.Barely any gameplay videos

3.Been known to releasing games with bugs in the past.

4.Game has a bigger scope than something like Shadowrun: Returns or FTL.

5.When the beta comes out, users opinions will most likely influence Obsidian to not just fix bugs, but to change gameplay elements.

 

No way in heck is this game coming out this year.  If early access isn't an option, then I hope Paradox will at least help with the funding.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Bill Gates' Son

[Hiro Protagonist II]

5.When the beta comes out, users opinions will most likely influence Obsidian to not just fix bugs, but to change gameplay elements.

 

No way in heck is this game coming out this year.  If early access isn't an option, then I hope Paradox will at least help with the funding.

 

I don't see Obsidian changing major gameplay elements once the beta comes out. Any changes will be small tweaks in balancing imo.

 

Also, I get the impression there is a lot happening behind the scenes and the fortnightly updates don't show what's really going on. I also expressed some concerns months ago and Brandon as well as other Obsidian employees have said it will be released this year.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[PrimeJunta]

@Bill Gates' Son: Nonsense.

 

The devs have said a few weeks ago that the game is feature- and content-complete, with the only new assets still in the production pipeline being some b-priority armor and weapon sets, sounds, and final animations. Those are all drop-in resources and any of them could even be dropped without jeopardizing release. Today is June 2. There's six months left of 2014. They'll have it ready and polished by the end of September, perhaps October if they take a nice long vacation. Barring huge force majeure type things, there's no way they're delaying it until 2015.

 

As to your specific objections --

 

1. Yes, that's a pretty remarkable achievement. But then they're veterans -- they've worked with many different engines, and have large and complex utilities that they can port over as-is (e.g. their dialog and quest editor). This is all terra cognita, and you can develop really fast if there are few unknowns and you know what you're doing.

 

2. They left final animations, sound, and FX until the end of the process. This makes production more efficient, but means that any video they would make would make people howl. (Some are already nitpicking about the stuff they have shown.) We know a lot about what they're doing and how they're doing it from several people. A gameplay video would be nice confirmation but it's not necessary.

 

3. Not in the past several years though, and not when they've had control of the schedule.

 

4. Not bigger than similar games they've made in similar timeframes in the past, though.

 

5. Unlikely. The way they work, once it hits public beta it'll be pretty much done. They might tweak a few UI elements or such, but they won't introduce new systems or assets, do major rebalancing or such. That's not how JES rolls.

[bonarbill]

1.Building the game and engine from scratch (While they are using the Unity Engine, they still had to build "gameplay engine" of PoE).

2.Barely any gameplay videos

3.Been known to releasing games with bugs in the past.

4.Game has a bigger scope than something like Shadowrun: Returns or FTL.

5.When the beta comes out, users opinions will most likely influence Obsidian to not just fix bugs, but to change gameplay elements.

 

No way in heck is this game coming out this year.  If early access isn't an option, then I hope Paradox will at least help with the funding.

 

Agreed.  I refuse to believe the game is coming out this year until I see some footage. 

[Karkarov]

Sounds like Mr.  Junta has hit the nail on the head.  Let's not forget, Wasteland 2 is being made my a company that has made like .... one other game in the last decade?  Obsidian is not some indy dev or new arrival to the scene who hasn't made a good game in 20 years.  They are experienced, they had a clear vision, management is not off in left field playing tiddly winks, there is no third party Obsidian choose their own deadline, and they know what they are doing.  That is a pretty powerful combination for meeting your games release projections.

 

In other news they have never been one to release gameplay video's early.  I never saw a gameplay vid of South Park Stick of Truth for example until it was about 3 months away from release.  I am not sure there even was one for Alpha Protocol before release itself.

[Bill Gates' Son]

@Bill Gates' Son: Nonsense.

 

Bit rude to call my post nonsense.  Nevertheless, I'm just stating my opinion based on my experience as a software developer.  If they get it out early, then great!   But I see doubt it based on what I seen.

[PrimeJunta]

@Bill Gates' Son -- Software developer here too.

 

I'm so confident of my prediction on this one that I'm willing to make a friendly bet with you. How about you buy me a Steam key for the expansion if it does come out in 2014, and I'll buy you one for the game or the expansion, your choice, if it doesn't?

[Gromnir]

lack of videos and screenies don't bother us and do not make us believe poe is delayed. as we noted above, wasteland 2 looked pretty darn raw in early videos and screenies. perhaps obsidian simply don't wanna have to explain over and over that game ain't finished. nevertheless, am trying to think of a game that were released in the initial time-frame offered to the public. torn were cancelled by black isle a mere 6 months before what woulda been the s'posed release date we had been given. after torn were cancelled we were informed of all the problems that development faced, but such stuff were unknown to us right up until surprising announcement o' cancellation. iwd, which were a super-quicky development with a clear and obvious goal o' getting released before diablo 2 and bg2, took a few extra months... and had misfortune of being released at same time as diablo 2. oops. planescape had some funny delays, and some kinda mix-up with the gold as well. more recent, how many delays did obsidian face with stick-of-truth?

 

after torn and iwd, black isle stopped giving release dates. they would say that they were "shooting for a Q3 release," or something similar. "it will be done when it is done." *chuckle* 'course that were nonsense for us on the boards. whether it were announced to us as a release date, the publisher were still giving retailers target dates n' such as those retailers were wanting to make guesstimates 'bout inventory and shelf-space 'n such.  of course we would discover the dates given to retailers, soooooo...

 

kickstarters is different though. no publisher. wasteland 2 were 'posed to be released october last year, yes? now is august this year. inxile may be a new company, but the guys making the game are industry vets.

 

*shrug*

 

Gromnir would be very surprised if poe actual were released by end of 2014 as that would make it near unique for a obsidian/black isle development released in a timely fashion. at the least, we suspect they use the "winter 2014" to potentially stretch to march 20, 2015 as that is the first day o' spring.  what is the genuine motivation to hit their target release date? is not as if they is being paid by a publisher for meeting various development thresholds. and again, obsidian has a rep for buggy releases. if they take a couple extra months to get poe relative stable, am thinking it will be time well spent... especially as we cannot think of another crpg release for winter of 2014 so no competition for nerdling dollars. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

@Bill Gates' Son -- Software developer here too.

 

I'm so confident of my prediction on this one that I'm willing to make a friendly bet with you. How about you buy me a Steam key for the expansion if it does come out in 2014, and I'll buy you one for the game or the expansion, your choice, if it doesn't?

 

I'll bet you that there won't be Romance in this version of PoE but there will be in the next one?

 

And yes lets bet a Steam game of our choosing but no more than $50. That's how confident I am that Obsidian will realize there mistake and include Romance options in the sequel.

 

Come on Prime...don't be scared

[Quetzalcoatl]

kickstarters is different though. no publisher. wasteland 2 were 'posed to be released october last year, yes? now is august this year. inxile may be a new company, but the guys making the game are industry vets.

InXile was not an RPG studio prior to Kickstarter, not even remotely. Sure, there's Brian Fargo, but he's a CEO, not a game designer. It's very different from the dev team behind Pillars, who have made this type of game (realtime with pause narrative-focused party-based RPG) numerous times before, be it at Black Isle or Obsidian.    

Edited June 2, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[PrimeJunta]

@BruceVC That's a bet I'm not confident to take at all!

[BruceVC]

@BruceVC That's a bet I'm not confident to take at all!

 

You are very wise my friend. I also wouldn't take that bet and the reason is as follows

 

Once PoE is released I am confident it will be a success. It will also attract many new fans and people who aren't active on these forums and that will include many fellow promancers. Comments will be similar to " wow that game was amazing but its pity that  there wasn't deeper party interaction through Romance options"

 

Obsidian will now know they have a winning IP and exciting new game world with a loyal fan base. But you always want to grow a business and attract new fans to increase the revenue stream

 

So they will take what fans want under consideration and ask questions like " how can we make PoE 2 even better, what was missing from PoE that can be improved on"

 

And one of the most obvious answers will be.....Romance

[Malekith]

Obsidian will now know they have a winning IP and exciting new game world with a loyal fan base. But you always want to grow a business and attract new fans to increase the revenue stream

Bioware did that and you know how it ended.

[BruceVC]

 

Obsidian will now know they have a winning IP and exciting new game world with a loyal fan base. But you always want to grow a business and attract new fans to increase the revenue stream

Bioware did that and you know how it ended.

 

 

I know exactly how it ended, one of the worlds most highly regarded and successful development studios with millions of fans who absolute support them and there products financially. Yes this is exactly the success I imagine Obsidian would want to achieve, what business wouldn't?

[Gnostic]

 

 

Obsidian will now know they have a winning IP and exciting new game world with a loyal fan base. But you always want to grow a business and attract new fans to increase the revenue stream

Bioware did that and you know how it ended.

 

 

I know exactly how it ended, one of the worlds most highly regarded and successful development studios with millions of fans who absolute support them and there products financially. Yes this is exactly the success I imagine Obsidian would want to achieve, what business wouldn't?

 

As long as they don't go the dumb down the game to attract young gamers route I will be fine.

 

You cannot please everybody so build the games on what your already huge fan base love is crucial. Mostly working adults who have more money and can enjoy a challenging game.

 

I loved Dungeon Siege 2 that is RTwP with 6 party based combat.

 

Obsidian develop Dungeon Siege 3 which dumb down the game that you can only control one avatar, which makes things less challenging.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Gnostic

[Bryy]

 

Obsidian will now know they have a winning IP and exciting new game world with a loyal fan base. But you always want to grow a business and attract new fans to increase the revenue stream

Bioware did that and you know how it ended.

 

Dragon Age: Origins actually did really well.

 

I mean, if we're being completely serious, Origins over DA2 or DA3 is the one that was made to get new fans.

 

Because nothing I've seen has shown me BioWare knows what to do with that franchise.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Bryy

[Lephys]

I thought it would have been cool if the beta was a little self contained side story that takes place in some little nook or cranny of the world. There could even be some minor reference to it in the game proper.

It would be, but it would also be a lot of extra effort. Unless it was horribly sub-par, in which case it would be self-defeating. I'm not sure the extra work on making the beta into its own little story/segment wouldn't just cancel itself out, however you look at it. I mean, unique content = unique content testing. Not to mention the waste of content that would occur if that beta segment didn't make its way into the game somehow (as like... the prologue?).

 

*shrug*. I very much love the notion, in isolation, but I don't see it being feasibly, unfortunately.

[Gromnir]

 

kickstarters is different though. no publisher. wasteland 2 were 'posed to be released october last year, yes? now is august this year. inxile may be a new company, but the guys making the game are industry vets.

InXile was not an RPG studio prior to Kickstarter, not even remotely. Sure, there's Brian Fargo, but he's a CEO, not a game designer. It's very different from the dev team behind Pillars, who have made this type of game (realtime with pause narrative-focused party-based RPG) numerous times before, be it at Black Isle or Obsidian.    

 

dunno, but we did a quick looksee at the guys working at inxile and many o' them worked on the original wasteland-- is folks who got Loads o' experience in the industry. inxile itself has 'been 'round for a decade and so they got all the basic infrastructure o' an established game developer. these guys is hardly a bunch o' n00bs playing at being game developers.

 

look at it a different way: is a bunch o' guys working on wasteland 2 that if we sudden heard obsidian had hired them, we would expect this board to spawn multiple new threads talking 'bout what a great addition those folks would be to the poe team. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

 

kickstarters is different though. no publisher. wasteland 2 were 'posed to be released october last year, yes? now is august this year. inxile may be a new company, but the guys making the game are industry vets.

InXile was not an RPG studio prior to Kickstarter, not even remotely. Sure, there's Brian Fargo, but he's a CEO, not a game designer. It's very different from the dev team behind Pillars, who have made this type of game (realtime with pause narrative-focused party-based RPG) numerous times before, be it at Black Isle or Obsidian.    

 

dunno, but we did a quick looksee at the guys working at inxile and many o' them worked on the original wasteland-- is folks who got Loads o' experience in the industry. inxile itself has 'been 'round for a decade and so they got all the basic infrastructure o' an established game developer. these guys is hardly a bunch o' n00bs playing at being game developers.

I don't think InXile has much if any real ties to Interplay/Black Isle. And as a matter of fact, they didn't have the infrastructure:

While the programming work will remain with us here at inXile, we are looking to use a host of tools that Obsidian has created which will help us get assets into the game faster.

 

Again, Wasteland 2 (or Shadowrun Returns, for that matter) is not a suitable comparison here. Not at all.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Gromnir]

"Project director Brian Fargo has reassembled key team members from the original Wasteland: Alan Pavlish, Michael A. Stackpole, Ken St. Andre and Liz Danforth,[21] as well as the early Fallout games' designer Jason Anderson (Anderson, however, left the company in December 2010).[22] The composer Mark Morgan, who created the soundtracks for Fallout and Fallout 2, was also hired to compose music for the game.[23]"

 

is a crap wiki quote, but even Gromnir recognizes those names. and am not sure you understand what we mean by infrastructure. when you run a company, there is all kinda infrastructure you need to keep things running. from obvious business stuff such as accounting, to game-specific aspects such as QA... am recalling that uncle feargus mentioned that one o' his most important contributions to bioware's development o' baldur's gate were helping set up their QA. 

 

game resources? *chuckle* is funny you make note o' that seeing as how virtual every black isle/obsidian game that is gonna appeal to poe fans were built on some other developer's engine: ps:t. iwd, how, tials of the luremaster, iwd2, kotor2, neverwinter nights 2, neverwinter 2: motb, storm of zehir and fallout: new vegas. quite the list, no? heck the cancelled TORN were being built on a licensed engine. take away all the games that black isle/obsidian built on some other guy's engine and what you got? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps alpha protocol were unreal 3, yes? forgot that one.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Gromnir

[PrimeJunta]

@Gromnir A collection of players is not a team. A team only happens when they train and play together. Until then, there's no way to know if those players can even make a team, let alone if they can play to win.

 

Software development is a dance where the players have different specialities, and where every player's work depends on every other player's work. A poor team will have lots of people tripping each other up -- waiting for other people a lot of the time. A great team has everybody actively helping each other out. How this happens depends on the team; every team is different. This effect is multiplicative, not additive, so the same people in a team that has gelled will be not 20% or 50% but more like 2000% -- 20 times -- more productive than in a group that hasn't.

 

No matter how experienced or how good the people are, a team can't gel overnight, although a brilliant, charismatic, and extremely experienced team leader can help speed things along. That's the difference between a veteran studio, and a group of veterans. The P:E team is the former. inXile was the latter when the WL2 project was started. They had not done this kind of thing in ages, wheras Obsidian has only been doing this kind of thing as long as it's been around. That's also the only "infrastructure" that really counts -- team culture that makes stuff happen.

 

(A bit of a tangent -- at that point sometimes somebody in the team, usually the leader, gets so pleased with himself that he writes a book. Thus are methodologies born. There's usually a lot of good stuff in those books you might be able to apply, but it's simply not possible to copy a successful team's culture. Eventually formal processes and practices usually emerge and are written down, but if they're any good they're a representation of what the team does and how it does it, not, as surprisingly many people think, a manual on how to do things well.)

Edited June 3, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Sensuki]

Alan Pavlish, Michael A. Stackpole, Ken St. Andre and Liz Danforth

They actually all bailed on the project very early on, like before development even started. They were involved in some very preliminary stuff.

[Gromnir]

given the amount of turnover we typically sees in the game industry, am thinking some o' you is vastly overstating the teamwork aspect. seems smarter to keep some core people and develop a system that is flexible and built on a proven infrastructure. that way your team don't collapse every time you lose a key person... or two. Gromnir don't do software, but that is how we do things in the business world.

 

that being said, even with their super-team intact, obsidian has never met an announced target release... 'least none that we can recall. honestly, we didn't follow ds 3 at all, so we cannot speak to that development, and we honest don't recall soz release dates. heck, obsidian messed with vaunted team chemistry and brought in tim cain.... and he has an even worse history when it comes to release dates and bugged games.

 

"history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

 

HA! Good Fun!