Is running away from fights possible? Wilderness encounter placement? Enemy Morale?

[deuxhero]

I'm trying to force myself through Baldur's Gate 1 and one thing that is very apparent is that you can't practically run from fights. Short of travel via the world map, I can't actually get enemies to break combat and stop chasing me (which is actually a problem in an annoyingly high number of games now that I think about it), even with half the map between the characters. As Baldur's Gate has really random enemy placement in wilderness areas (like a pair of dire wolves directly along the road as soon as you exit the tutorial area, or how Peldvale has a group of Black Talon Elite in a random spot that will instantly kill low level characters who arrived from the Friendly Arm while most of the area is low level animals), all of whom instantly start attacking as soon as they are visible, something that gets annoying VERY quickly (as the only effective "counter" is save and reload abuse).

 

Another related thing is that enemies in BG had no concept of morale. You can kill half a pack of dogs (literal and metaphorical) and its alpha in a round and the rest will still charge at the guy in full plate with a rusty dagger. Some special abilities would "force" enemies to flee (turn undead, cause fear), but that doesn't really count.

 

1: Will running from fights be possible in PoE?

2: What kind of "rules" for enemy placement do wilderness areas obey? Are the areas largely around a single power level in each area? Does it use a system like Gothic where the roads are mostly safe (some common animals with low aggression the player can simply run past if really needed), but danger increases the further you stray? Is it like Baldur's Gate and thus completely and totally random?

3: Is it possible to see fights before they start attacking? I know prebuffing is out, and interaction with that is the main problem it would pose.

4: Can enemies lose morale short of effects that specifficly cause it?

[teknoman2]

I'm trying to force myself through Baldur's Gate 1 and one thing that is very apparent is that you can't practically run from fights. Short of travel via the world map, I can't actually get enemies to break combat and stop chasing me (which is actually a problem in an annoyingly high number of games now that I think about it), even with half the map between the characters. As Baldur's Gate has really random enemy placement in wilderness areas (like a pair of dire wolves directly along the road as soon as you exit the tutorial area, or how Peldvale has a group of Black Talon Elite in a random spot that will instantly kill low level characters who arrived from the Friendly Arm while most of the area is low level animals), all of whom instantly start attacking as soon as they are visible, something that gets annoying VERY quickly (as the only effective "counter" is save and reload abuse).

 

Another related thing is that enemies in BG had no concept of morale. You can kill half a pack of dogs (literal and metaphorical) and its alpha in a round and the rest will still charge at the guy in full plate with a rusty dagger. Some special abilities would "force" enemies to flee (turn undead, cause fear), but that doesn't really count.

 

1: Will running from fights be possible in PoE?

2: What kind of "rules" for enemy placement do wilderness areas obey? Are the areas largely around a single power level in each area? Does it use a system like Gothic where the roads are mostly safe (some common animals with low aggression the player can simply run past if really needed), but danger increases the further you stray? Is it like Baldur's Gate and thus completely and totally random?

3: Is it possible to see fights before they start attacking? I know prebuffing is out, and interaction with that is the main problem it would pose.

4: Can enemies lose morale short of effects that specifficly cause it?

1: im not sure

2: enemies are hand placed, but the type and number depend on the difficulty level. if at some point you are to meet goblins, there will be goblins. however, depending on the difficulty, it may be a few normal goblins or a few elite goblins or both and they may even have a shaman

3: if you scout (stealth mode) ahead you can see enemies before they see you and may be able to avoid them

4: i think they have a morale system, but i cant recall any precise info about it

Edited May 5, 2014 by teknoman2

[Gfted1]

I hope the enemies don't have morale. Nothing more annoying than having to chase a Gibberling across the map and kill it just to exit "combat mode".

[PrimeJunta]

That's what missile weapons are for. 

 

cRPG's -- where shooting fleeing enemies in the back counts as heroic.

[sesobebo]

I hope the enemies don't have morale. Nothing more annoying than having to chase a Gibberling across the map and kill it just to exit "combat mode".

isn't this more of a combat mode problem than morale problem?

[Infinitron]

Actually, Baldur's Gate did have morale. What version were you playing

[Gfted1]

 

I hope the enemies don't have morale. Nothing more annoying than having to chase a Gibberling across the map and kill it just to exit "combat mode".

isn't this more of a combat mode problem than morale problem?

 

 

 

A little of both I suppose. Im not 100% sure what triggered morale failure but once it happened the mooks would run away and you would be forced to run them down and kill them just to exit "combat mode".

[teknoman2]

 

 

I hope the enemies don't have morale. Nothing more annoying than having to chase a Gibberling across the map and kill it just to exit "combat mode".

isn't this more of a combat mode problem than morale problem?

 

 

 

A little of both I suppose. Im not 100% sure what triggered morale failure but once it happened the mooks would run away and you would be forced to run them down and kill them just to exit "combat mode".

 

and that was a combat design problem. if in this game you make an enemy flee, since you get no xp for the kill anyway, he should just run off and despawn once he is a certain distance away from your party (let's say double the visual range). he is no longer part of combat so the combat ends.

[Mor]

Actually, Baldur's Gate did have morale. What version were you playing

really? I recall that you could use fear or confusion which made creatures to lose control and wander around, but I don't recall a morale system in bg\bg2 and neither in PoE for that matter :/

 

Edit: maybe you mean "morality" i.e. the alignment system?

Edited May 5, 2014 by Mor

[rjshae]

 

Actually, Baldur's Gate did have morale. What version were you playing

really? I recall that you could use fear or confusion which made creatures to lose control and wander around, but I don't recall a morale system in bg\bg2 and neither in PoE for that matter :/

 

Edit: maybe you mean "morality" i.e. the alignment system?

 

When some enemy forces started to crumble and became outnumbered, some would break, turn their selection ring yellow, and try to flee. I thought it was a nice touch.

[Quadrone]

I'm trying to force myself through Baldur's Gate 1 and one thing that is very apparent is that you can't practically run from fights. Short of travel via the world map, I can't actually get enemies to break combat and stop chasing me (which is actually a problem in an annoyingly high number of games now that I think about it), even with half the map between the characters.

...

1: Will running from fights be possible in PoE?

 

The problem I could see coming from this is that it could make it (more easily) possible to kite enemies, like in Gothic for example:

1.) Take any ranged weapon, 2.) Start shooting at monster from as far away as possible, 3.) when it gets close run away 4.) laugh as it stops after a set distance from its spawnpoint, 5.) wait until it has returned and start over at 1.).

[Infinitron]

 

 

Actually, Baldur's Gate did have morale. What version were you playing

really? I recall that you could use fear or confusion which made creatures to lose control and wander around, but I don't recall a morale system in bg\bg2 and neither in PoE for that matter :/

 

Edit: maybe you mean "morality" i.e. the alignment system?

 

When some enemy forces started to crumble and became outnumbered, some would break, turn their selection ring yellow, and try to flee. I thought it was a nice touch.

 

 

Yup.

[teknoman2]

 

Actually, Baldur's Gate did have morale. What version were you playing

really? I recall that you could use fear or confusion which made creatures to lose control and wander around, but I don't recall a morale system in bg\bg2 and neither in PoE for that matter :/

 

Edit: maybe you mean "morality" i.e. the alignment system?

 

no he menas morale... there were often messages saying morale failure. if a character or creature was getting overwhelmed, it would run away in fear. your party's morale was deternimed by the leader's charisma

[rjshae]

It could be interesting to have an escape mechanism wherein your party can flee through the edge of the area map, but then, if the enemy can keep up, you encounter them (with possible reinforcements) in a random wilderness encounter area. This should be relatively easy to implement, I would think.

[deuxhero]

 

 

Actually, Baldur's Gate did have morale. What version were you playing

really? I recall that you could use fear or confusion which made creatures to lose control and wander around, but I don't recall a morale system in bg\bg2 and neither in PoE for that matter :/

 

Edit: maybe you mean "morality" i.e. the alignment system?

 

no he menas morale... there were often messages saying morale failure. if a character or creature was getting overwhelmed, it would run away in fear. your party's morale was deternimed by the leader's charisma

 

 

Never seen this happen. Either (easy) tutu has broken it, or the system's design makes it rare (now that I know the right term, google has told me the main factor is HP, and BG characters of either side rarely stay at low HP long). Yellow/green would not be easy to notice, but I've never seen it announced in the log either.

[Bryy]

I'm sure there are some people that think running away from fictional fights says something about their manhood.

[deuxhero]

'Tis not defeat to flee from battle. 'Tis survival.

 

Allowing retreat allows more possible outcomes to combat and exploration (Is there anything particularlly interesting or fun about "saw a high level enemy, have to reload because the game didn't implement retreating" that merits keeping it?)

 

 

2: enemies are hand placed, but the type and number depend on the difficulty level. if at some point you are to meet goblins, there will be goblins. however, depending on the difficulty, it may be a few normal goblins or a few elite goblins or both and they may even have a shaman

 

Yeah, but what can the player expect to fight in Wilderness Area A? Will it just be low level fights (with higher level stuff appearing in WAB, then C and so on), placed by some logical scheme (like gothic throwing nastier things at you the farther you got from the main roads) or what?

Edited May 5, 2014 by deuxhero

[Cubiq]

One of the things that triggers moral failure in IE games is damaging someone for a huge % of their health in a very short time. Probably in a single round.

If they drop from 100% to 10% very fast, they will most likely start to run away.

[Infinitron]

Could be that Tutu broke something. I've always been faithful to vanilla BG1 and morale failure was very common in fights against "trash mobs" there.

[Stun]

Well, in the IE games, Morale failure doesn't automatically mean "I'm afraid so I'm disengaging/running away". Morale failure also sometimes produces the berserk state. enemies turn yellow, and start wailing away at the nearest creature (usually that's someone in your party).

 

 

Also, You can do successful tactical retreats in BG1. And all it takes for an enemy to leave you alone (thus ending combat mode) is for them to no longer have you in their sights.

 

And that's easily done with a little bit of thinking.

 

1) Make yourself invisible and walk away (invisibility potions aren't rare at all in Bg1)

2) Toss a grease spell at the enemy and walk away

3) Toss a web spell at the enemy and walk away

4) Toss an entangle spell at the enemy and walk away

5) Summon something at that enemy and walk away (although this one requires that you move each party member individually)

6) Toss a sleep spell at the enemy and walk away

 

^once you do any of the above, and walk far enough away so that they're no longer on the screen, they will 'forget" about you and stop pursuing.

 

Also, I'm not quite sure why running to the edge of the map and doing an area transition somehow "doesn't count". In BG1, this is absolutely viable and will guarantee a totally safe escape. Be thankful for that, because BG2 takes that option away from you. Enemies will follow you right out the door and even to different maps in Bg2!

Edited May 6, 2014 by Stun

[deuxhero]

It doesn't "count" because it's an increddibly arbitrary barrier that only exists because of game mechanics.

 

Leaving sight range, even after webbing them doesn't work (unless easy tutu broke that, and honestly if it had this many holes I'd think SOMEONE would mention them). Even leaving leaving the submap doesn't work (I will give the IE points for letting enemies chase you between load areas, which is still pretty rare). You're stuck in combat mode and the AI knows exactly where even if you are on the other side of the map after webbing them. I handeled the "amazons" north the hidden mine exit by exploiting this.

Edited May 6, 2014 by deuxhero

[Stun]

Leaving sight range, even after webbing them doesn't work (unless easy tutu broke that, and honestly if it had this many holes I'd think SOMEONE would mention them).

Easy Tutu might have broken it. But we may just be arguing semantics here instead. BG1's enemy AI is not intelligent enough to "search" for something that it can't see. If your party has successfully traveled far enough away from an enemy where you no longer share the screen with them, then they will no longer pursue. They can't. Instead, they will just go back to wandering around aimlessly. If they manage to find you again, it's because either you or they (or both) happened to wander back close enough to share the screen, thus re-engagement has occurred.

 

 

 

Even leaving leaving the submap doesn't work (I will give the IE points for letting enemies chase you between load areas, which is still pretty rare).

Ok, I know for a fact that this IS a TuTu thing. Escaping from enemies by leaving any area map absolutely works in every IE game except for BG2. Which means it won't work with easy TuTu, since TuTU *IS* BG2. TuTu is nothing more than BG2's mechanics and UI plugged into into Bg1's little gameworld.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Stun

[deuxhero]

Great, so the one impressive thing about BG1 isn't even from BG1... It's still just a minor detail, as almost no-submap has multiple exits in BG1 so they are useless for running away anyways.

 

I was stuck in combat mode even after webbing the remaining assassins and running away into one of the tombs and I've run far enough away from enemies to lose sight of them for what would be over 30 seconds if I wasn't playing the game on higher than intended speed.

Edited May 6, 2014 by deuxhero

[Mor]

no he menas morale... there were often messages saying morale failure. if a character or creature was getting overwhelmed, it would run away in fear. your party's morale was deternimed by the leader's charisma

ohh, I remember them panicking and the FUN of the chasing after them around.

 

I just dont recall anything about a moral system.. I believe that 'moral failure' is what you got when you failed a saving throw of the effects I mention above (through spell or magical weapon) but maybe I am just remembering it wrong.. indeed leader charisma effected the party charisma, maybe charisma was part of some saving throw calculation :?

Edited May 6, 2014 by Mor

[deuxhero]

I had a 10 charisma fighter at the top of the stack for prolouge to the bandit camp, so doubtful.

Edited May 6, 2014 by deuxhero