Update #77: Art in Alpha

[rjshae]

Being serious for a moment, what I said wasn't intended as an attack, and certainly not an ad hominem one. If it came off that way, I apologize. I was attempting to gently chide you and others for missing the point, not attacking you.

 

I don't think we are missing the point. By saying that you are significantly underestimating the audience, or else you're being condescending. It's just not that important to everybody to rehash the same old social issues without significant new context, and I'm merely supplementing that with some mechanical details as to why the point is trivial to me in this instance.

[Hormalakh]

i'm ok with boob-armor as long as my male fighter can wear it so i can distinguish him from my other male fighter who isn't a sl**.

 

http://oglaf.com/breastplate/

NSFW

 

:popcorn:

Edited May 7, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Silent Winter]

i'm ok with boob-armor as long as my male fighter can wear it so i can distinguish him from my other male fighter who isn't a sl**.

 

http://oglaf.com/breastplate/

NSFW

 

:popcorn:

and the disbelieving stare from the woman to his right is coming from someone who's also wearing boob-armour (albeit less exaggerated and without the writing).  She must have gotten hers made by the armourer's less mysoginistic brother

 

My personal reaction to boob-armour for the record: "it's fine to have it or not"

[Ffordesoon]

 

Being serious for a moment, what I said wasn't intended as an attack, and certainly not an ad hominem one. If it came off that way, I apologize. I was attempting to gently chide you and others for missing the point, not attacking you.

 

 

I don't think we are missing the point. By saying that you are significantly underestimating the audience, or else you're being condescending. It's just not that important to everybody to rehash the same old social issues without significant new context, and I'm merely supplementing that with some mechanical details as to why the point is trivial to me in this instance.

If I was being condscending or underestimating your intelligence, I apologize. Not my intent. And, as I said, you made a good point in response to me.

[cresentdark]

 

 

Personally I love armor but I wish they had a plate armor or heavy looking then that. I also like  dragon armor or armor that give a god like complex or the idea of a dark and holy looking armor I am sure they will have those just saying lol.

[rjshae]

Why does this happen, and what can be done to stop it? These are the questions I am most interested in answering.

 

Perhaps some combination of trolling, a perception of political agendas at work, elements of prior discord, trolling, argumentative natures, the constrained nature of written communication, a desire to discuss other elements of the game, trolling, particular artistic style preferences, stubbornness, and strong passions for particular viewpoints. People like to control each other socially, so some amount of conflict is probably inevitable. *shrug*

 

But this is getting well off topic.

[Endrosz]

This is a complete non-issue for me, but.... Just you know, the US Army started development of body armor for females in 2011, after receiving numerous complaints about bruising etc. The first combat deployments of female-fitted body armor happened in 2012. However, the major changes are NOT in the breast area, but in the arms and the hip area. So that seems to prove that there's no need for bulged breastplates and such.

 

 

...

Any woman who has deployed to the combat zone can tell you what's wrong with wearing the improved outer tactical vest, or IOTV -- military-speak for body armor -- it's designed for a man's body.

"Women were having a real problem with the fit of the IOTV," said Lynn Hennessey, lead designer for the female body armor prototype being tested at Fort Campbell. "The size extra-small was too large for 85 percent of the females, so they weren't getting a good fit. It was too loose and too long."

That left vulnerabilities where the body armor left gaps, particularly under the arms. But it also made the vests uncomfortable enough to affect performance, Hennessey explained.

In some cases, women were reporting bruising on their hip bones because the side plates dragged down to their hips, she said. "And when they were sitting down, it was riding up to their chins, because the torso was so long."

This kind of feedback, both anecdotal and through a formal process of surveys and focus groups, led the Natick Soldier Research, Development and Engineering Center here to launch a program to design female-specific body armor.

...

 

This is the first half of the article, there's more beyond the link.

 

 

EDIT: This just in! Replaying BG1, and I encountered this conversation right now:

Right-o. When I encounter my close friend Boob, I turn into Dimwit, Brainless and Moron, all at the same time.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Endrosz

[Mor]

For those interested in realism, there some interesting tidbits in this thread concerning COA.

[Lephys]

At the very least, though, that goes to show that it would, indeed, be prudent to design armor for female torso proportions as well, were you to have had a lot of female fighters in medieval times, as opposed to the "Nah, they'd all just wear the same armor" notion.

 

Sure, the way the chest fits is still an exaggeration/abstraction from reality, but, I dare say even that isn't beyond the scope of some armor types. Look at the Roman breastplates sculpted like an entire male chest. They didn't really HAVE to do that. But they did. *shrug*

 

I dare say that, shy of just sculpting two large bosoms into the armor, it's not really preposterous to think that maybe someone decided to specifically shape the overall torso armor to a female torso. Probably not worth the trouble to figure out how to get a form like that into something like scale (with a narower waist and slightly curved scales on the chest, and figuring out how to fasten it onto the person, since just over the shoulders wouldn't work anymore, etc.), but probably not impossible. But, mostly it's just a suspension of disbelief, again, just like how the same suit of armor fits everyone in your party, or you can go around fighting "without your helmet" but still have the protection of your helmet, just because you opt to see your characters' heads the whole time, etc.

[Gromnir]

At the very least, though, that goes to show that it would, indeed, be prudent to design armor for female torso proportions as well, were you to have had a lot of female fighters in medieval times, as opposed to the "Nah, they'd all just wear the same armor" notion.

 

 

well... no. see, scale and chain is uncomfortable for men too. scale and chain armour is a formless metal "garment." you is making a complete non-analogous correlation. josh, whatever else his faults might be, were very candid in admitting that scale and chain armour does not accommodate b00b swell save for in computer games such as poe.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

well... no. see, scale and chain is uncomfortable for men too. scale and chain armour is a formless metal "garment." you is making a complete non-analogous correlation. josh, whatever else his faults might be, were very candid in admitting that scale and chain armour does not accommodate b00b swell save for in computer games such as poe.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

I didn't say it does. I said it probably could be made to. Hell, you even can sculpt boobs into a solid plate breastplate. It's just detrimental to the functioning of the armor. It's not physics-defying or anything.

 

Scales are rigid pieces of metal. If you curve them, they won't just straighten back out on their own.

 

I'm not saying it's practical. I'm saying it's possible.

[Gromnir]

 

well... no. see, scale and chain is uncomfortable for men too. scale and chain armour is a formless metal "garment." you is making a complete non-analogous correlation. josh, whatever else his faults might be, were very candid in admitting that scale and chain armour does not accommodate b00b swell save for in computer games such as poe.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

I didn't say it does. I said it probably could be made to. Hell, you even can sculpt boobs into a solid plate breastplate. It's just detrimental to the functioning of the armor. It's not physics-defying or anything.

 

Scales are rigid pieces of metal. If you curve them, they won't just straighten back out on their own.

 

I'm not saying it's practical. I'm saying it's possible.

 

it is physics defying. 

 

*sigh*

 

is actual easier to sculpt b00bs into real metal plate than to make scale or chain sexy.  sure, the b00b plate is not functional either, but it can be made to fit some hypothetical person. scale and chain is not tailored like fabric. is not stretchy. you ain't gonna be sewn into it like a model's dress. chain and scale is Necessarily formless... am seeing you ain't looking at this practical. is no freaking way to makes heavy metal scale/chain taper and gather to fit b00b swell... unless it is light and stretchy as is fabrics. josh discussed this a bit, but folks don't wanna remember that part.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

What it boils down to, though, is this: most players will probably want to be able to tell male and female characters apart.

 

This seems to be the main argument from the boob armour crowd that I've seen.

 

I had to boot up BG1 to see if I could distinguish between my female fighter and other characters due to titties, because honestly I couldn't remember if the 1 inch characters on the screen did have boob armour. To my surprise I could make out pixel boobs on my Female fighter's plate armour.

 

For some reason I could tell which was my female fighter and which was Minsc or Khalid or any other male/female character and the boob armour wasn't it. There were other ways to work out which character was my female fighter, but it seems for others, they need the boob pixels to help them. It certainly hasn't been something I ever noticed in the IE games when my party is walking around or in battles, and it's not an argument I would be using if I was for boob armour.

 

Btw, I do like the boob armour in Diablo 3. If the armour fits in its own game world, then I'm okay with it. If the dev's are going for a more realistic approach with some armour with revisions (Cadegund's armour) and then months later fly in the face of their own design decisions with other types, I find it a bit odd and inconsistent.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Hiro Protagonist II]

What it boils down to, though, is this: most players will probably want to be able to tell male and female characters apart.

 

 

Also, to add and I think Gromnir pointed this out in the other thread (I haven't read this thread entirely). Players for boob scale armour want to distinguish between their male and female characters and so this is the reason for boob scale. But when it comes to plate armour, those same players are okay without it. Presumably, plate armour will be better than scale armour so by the end of the game, all your characters (male and female) will probably have the same armour and that's OK, they're fine with not being able to distinguish between their party members with who has boobs and who don't with their plate armour. So why argue the point that you need to distinguish between your male and female characters when later in the game they'll presumably be wearing the same boobless plate armour anyway, and those players are happy with plate armour?

[Ineth]

For some reason I could tell which was my female fighter and which was Minsc or Khalid or any other male/female character

 

And that's all I'm asking for, to have that visual distinguishability of character class, race, and gender in PoE as well.

 

and the boob armour wasn't it.

 

How do you know?

 

Human brains are good at picking up subtle visual cues for the purposes of recognizing larger concepts, even when you don't actively focus on (or even consciously notice) them.

 

In any case, I can't speak for others from my "side" of the debate, but I for one am not arguing for "boob shaped armor" per se; if Obsidian chooses other visual cues (like shoulder/waist/hip/leg forms and sizes) to differentiate between male and female character models, and that turns out to be just as effective in the isometric perspective, then great!

[Ineth]

Presumably, plate armour will be better than scale armour so by the end of the game, all your characters (male and female) will probably have the same armour

 

No, each armour type has distinct advantages and disadvantages in this game; plate mail isn't necessarily best for every character.

At least that's what I got from Sawyer's past explanations on the PoE armor system.

 

they'll presumably be wearing the same boobless plate armour

 

The devs never said that plate armor will use identical 3D models for both genders; in fact from reading between the lines I'm pretty sure they won't, so they'll still be distinguishable.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

For some reason I could tell which was my female fighter and which was Minsc or Khalid or any other male/female character

 

And that's all I'm asking for, to have that visual distinguishability of character class, race, and gender in PoE as well.

 

 

Even if all your characters have the same plate armour?  Seriously, you can't tell which is your female and male fighter without boob plate?

 

 

 

and the boob armour wasn't it.

 

How do you know?

 

Human brains are good at picking up subtle visual cues for the purposes of recognizing larger concepts, even when you don't actively focus on (or even consciously notice) them.

 

In any case, I can't speak for others from my "side" of the debate, but I for one am not arguing for "boob shaped armor" per se; if Obsidian chooses other visual cues (like shoulder/waist/hip/leg forms and sizes) to differentiate between male and female character models, and that turns out to be just as effective in the isometric perspective, then great!

 

 

Because I couldn't remember ever seeing boob plate on my 0.78 of an inch character on my 22" screen. Even characters smaller on a 15" monitor when BG1 was released. Which is why I said I had to boot up BG1 to find out if there was or not. I do remember using other ways to pick out which character was which and it wasn't by looking at who had boobs and who didn't.

 

Also, when you have characters not facing you like in the below screenshots, I'm not all of a sudden. Gee, which is my female fighter? I better turn the character around so I can see her boob plate. It's the same in battles. And a lot of the time, your characters are facing away from you.

 

 

 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Presumably, plate armour will be better than scale armour so by the end of the game, all your characters (male and female) will probably have the same armour

 

No, each armour type has distinct advantages and disadvantages in this game; plate mail isn't necessarily best for every character.

At least that's what I got from Sawyer's past explanations on the PoE armor system.

 

So if you have a male Fighter and a female Paladin in your party, both will not be wearing plate? Even if it may turn out that it's better that both characters should be wearing plate than scale? You'll be using scale for your female character to distinguish between your male? Seems like a ridiculous thing to do.

 

Alternatively, you may have a male character that benefits from scale and a female that benefits from plate. There's many possibilities where you may not be using boob scale for a female character but using plate instead. But you need it for that time when you have a) female character and b) scale is better than plate.

 

 

 

they'll presumably be wearing the same boobless plate armour

 

The devs never said that plate armor will use identical 3D models for both genders; in fact from reading between the lines I'm pretty sure they won't, so they'll still be distinguishable.

 

 

Reading between the lines, it looks like the plate armour will be the same for both male and female. so they won't be distinguishable. Perhaps a dev can confirm this. What probably will be distinguishable is the female may be smaller than the male and other visual cues. The plate armour may well be the same and if it is, then the argument for having boob scale doesn't hold up if you do change to plate for your female characters.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[rjshae]

 

What it boils down to, though, is this: most players will probably want to be able to tell male and female characters apart.

 

This seems to be the main argument from the boob armour crowd that I've seen.

 

Regular use of ad hominem attacks simply makes the remainder of your argument completely irrelevant.

[Gromnir]

 

 

What it boils down to, though, is this: most players will probably want to be able to tell male and female characters apart.

 

This seems to be the main argument from the boob armour crowd that I've seen.

 

Regular use of ad hominem attacks simply makes the remainder of your argument completely irrelevant.

 

am not sure people know what ad hominem means and why it is a fallacy.

 

--Nietzsche? how can you take anything he said seriously? the rat bastard had syphilis.

 

--the main proponent of the new dam project is cheating on his wife. perhaps he should fix his marriage before he tries and fix our community.

 

as far as logic is concerned, is nothing wrong with being insulting. the aforementioned Nietzsche were less than gentle with his less gifted detractors and his barbs in no way diminished the validity o' his arguments. ad hom is problematic when the character insult replaces the argument, or when a person claims that an argument fails because o' the arguers's character flaw. destroy an argument And call opponent a "mouth-breathing troglodyte with delusions of consciousness" is not making argument fail 'cause o' use o' ad hominem.

 

...

 

in fact, 'cause it is ironic and all, claiming that argument fails just 'cause person X is insulting is an ad hominem fallacy.  isn't that funny? well, Gromnir sees the humor. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[rjshae]

 

 

 

What it boils down to, though, is this: most players will probably want to be able to tell male and female characters apart.

 

This seems to be the main argument from the boob armour crowd that I've seen.

 

Regular use of ad hominem attacks simply makes the remainder of your argument completely irrelevant.

 

am not sure people know what ad hominem means and why it is a fallacy.

 

--Nietzsche? how can you take anything he said seriously? the rat bastard had syphilis.

 

--the main proponent of the new dam project is cheating on his wife. perhaps he should fix his marriage before he tries and fix our community.

 

as far as logic is concerned, is nothing wrong with being insulting. the aforementioned Nietzsche were less than gentle with his less gifted detractors and his barbs in no way diminished the validity o' his arguments. ad hom is problematic when the character insult replaces the argument, or when a person claims that an argument fails because o' the arguers's character flaw. destroy an argument And call opponent a "mouth-breathing troglodyte with delusions of consciousness" is not making argument fail 'cause o' use o' ad hominem.

 

...

 

in fact, 'cause it is ironic and all, claiming that argument fails just 'cause person X is insulting is an ad hominem fallacy.  isn't that funny? well, Gromnir sees the humor. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Okay then, the posting is tying all messages in favor of distinctive female features in the armor to the more extreme viewpoint that is generally meant to be insulting, or is the result of poor application of logic. It's an irrelevant claim concerning the authors that is used to reject other arguments, and therefore can be perceived as ad hominem. It immediately biases my perception of credibility of the author, rendering the remainder of the post as so much irrelevant dishwater.

[Gromnir]

*shrug*

 

am doubting Copi is required reading at any high school save for tweedy prep schools... and who the heck takes intro to logic at university these days? doesn't matter, but am almost never seeing people correct identify ad hominem fallacy, so don't feel bad. 

 

am admitting we is perplexed by how frequently we sees people claim straw man and ad hominem. logic is a very blunt tool and seeing as how few people actually had to study it, am amazed that these logic fallacies has entered common usage on internet message boards covering a dizzying array o' subject matter. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[rjshae]

A reasonable counterargument to the idea that so-called "boob plate" may kill the wearer:

• Contrary to popular belief, "Boob Plate" armor won't kill you.

So, this idea may at least be considered suspect.

[Lephys]

Didn't say you could make it stretchy. I said you could shape it to a torso. Though, as I already said, fastening it would have to be done differently, and probably wouldn't be practical (from a "your enemy can now probably easily destroy the integrity of your armor's security upon your person" standpoint).

 

Plenty of fabrics aren't stretchy, and yet they still get fitted to people.

 

This isn't an "and therefore everyone would obviously, realistically, all-things-considered, make all their armor like that, 8D!" argument, or I'd say that. It is what it is.

 

One COULD physically make scale or chain links fit a given torso, instead of just being a drapey-type "garment." That's all I'm saying.

[Gromnir]

Didn't say you could make it stretchy. I said you could shape it to a torso. Though, as I already said, fastening it would have to be done differently, and probably wouldn't be practical (from a "your enemy can now probably easily destroy the integrity of your armor's security upon your person" standpoint).

 

Plenty of fabrics aren't stretchy, and yet they still get fitted to people.

 

This isn't an "and therefore everyone would obviously, realistically, all-things-considered, make all their armor like that, 8D!" argument, or I'd say that. It is what it is.

 

One COULD physically make scale or chain links fit a given torso, instead of just being a drapey-type "garment." That's all I'm saying.

again, is Not fabric. is metal. Heavy metal in links or plates. is no stitch or pleat in the world that is gonna make b00b swell show in chain or scale male. 

 

...

 

maybe a different visual is needed.

 

take chest plate, with or without b00bs, and hang on a hook on wall. what happens to the shape o' the plate armour? nothing? exactamundo. you can do the same thing with some dresses. given how little the fabric weighs, designers can build shapes into cloth/whatever that is retained even without a person supporting.

 

now, do same with chainmail or scale. what do you think happens? put a metal bustier backing into the chain, and have wearer don by being sealed in likes meat 'tween two pieces o' bread? am s'posing that would work... but can't you see just how ridiculous your example is needing to be?

 

HA! Good Fun!