Tale Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Stealing Mor's OP from the last thread. here Previous threads: first, second Quick summary of the topic, for those of you who unfamiliar with it to get you started: Why is Ukraine in turmoil? Ukraine economy: How bad is the mess and can it be fixed? Why Crimea is so dangerous? How the crisis unfolded - timeline summary. Ukraine: UN condemns Crimea vote Analysis: Could Russia absorb eastern Ukraine? A nice summary of issues from US presepective on Russian rhetoric pre invasion: (covers a lot of issues discussed in thread #1 ) US state department memo, so take it with a grain of salt, still it provide a good summary of the major point raised by the two side. I wouldn't say that Russia would necessarily pick those 10 points for its case, but its good enough and provide decent summary (I learned new details on two points) As Russia spins a false narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine, the world has not seen such startling Russian fiction since Dostoyevsky wrote, “The formula ‘two plus two equals five’ is not without its attractions.” Below are 10 of President Vladimir Putin’s recent claims justifying Russian aggression in the Ukraine, followed by the facts that his assertions ignore or distort: 1. Mr. Putin says: Russian forces in Crimea are only acting to protect Russian military assets. It is “citizens’ defense groups,” not Russian forces, who have seized infrastructure and military facilities in Crimea. The Facts: Strong evidence suggests that members of Russian security services are at the heart of the highly organized anti-Ukraine forces in Crimea. While these units wear uniforms without insignia, they drive vehicles with Russian military license plates and freely identify themselves as Russian security forces when asked by the international media and the Ukrainian military. Moreover, these individuals are armed with weapons not generally available to civilians. 2. Mr. Putin says Russia’s actions fall within the scope of the 1997 Friendship Treaty between Ukraine and the Russian Federation. The Facts: The 1997 agreement requires Russia to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Russia’s military actions in Ukraine, which have given them operational control of Crimea, are in clear violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty. 3. Mr. Putin says The opposition failed to implement the February 21 agreement with former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. The Facts: The February 21 agreement laid out a plan in which the Rada, or Parliament, would pass a bill to return Ukraine to its 2004 Constitution, thus returning the country to a constitutional system centered around its parliament. Under the terms of the agreement, Yanukovych was to sign the enacting legislation within 24 hours and bring the crisis to a peaceful conclusion. Yanukovych refused to keep his end of the bargain. Instead, he packed up his home and fled, leaving behind evidence of wide-scale corruption. 4. Mr. Putin says Ukraine’s government is illegitimate. Yanukovych is still the legitimate leader of Ukraine. The Facts: On March 4, President Putin himself acknowledged the reality that Yanukovych “has no political future.” After Yanukovych fled Ukraine, even his own Party of Regions turned against him, voting to confirm his withdrawal from office and to support the new government. Ukraine’s new government was approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament, with 371 votes – more than an 82% majority. The interim government of Ukraine is a government of the people, which will shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that will allow all Ukrainians to have a voice in the future of their country. 5. Mr. Putin says There is a humanitarian crisis and hundreds of thousands are fleeing Ukraine to Russia and seeking asylum. The Facts: To date, there is absolutely no evidence of a humanitarian crisis. Nor is there evidence of a flood of asylum-seekers fleeing Ukraine for Russia. International organizations on the ground have investigated by talking with Ukrainian border guards, who also refuted these claims. Independent journalists observing the border have also reported no such flood of refugees. 6. Mr. Putin says Ethnic Russians are under threat. The Facts: Outside of Russian press and Russian state television, there are no credible reports of any ethnic Russians being under threat. The new Ukrainian government placed a priority on peace and reconciliation from the outset. President Oleksandr Turchynov refused to sign legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers have filed petitions attesting that their communities have not experienced threats. Furthermore, since the new government was established, calm has returned to Kyiv. There has been no surge in crime, no looting, and no retribution against political opponents. 7. Mr. Putin says Russian bases are under threat. The Facts: Russian military facilities were and remain secure, and the new Ukrainian government has pledged to abide by all existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. It is Ukrainian bases in Crimea that are under threat from Russian military action. 8. Mr. Putin says There have been mass attacks on churches and synagogues in southern and eastern Ukraine. The Facts: Religious leaders in the country and international religious freedom advocates active in Ukraine have said there have been no incidents of attacks on churches. All of Ukraine’s church leaders, including representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, have expressed support for the new political leadership, calling for national unity and a period of healing. Jewish groups in southern and eastern Ukraine report that they have not seen an increase in anti-Semitic incidents. 9. Mr. Putin says Kyiv is trying to destabilize Crimea. The Facts: Ukraine’s interim government has acted with restraint and sought dialogue. Russian troops, on the other hand, have moved beyond their bases to seize political objectives and infrastructure in Crimea. The government in Kyiv immediately sent the former Chief of Defense to defuse the situation. Petro Poroshenko, the latest government emissary to pursue dialogue in Crimea, was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada. 10. Mr. Putin says The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists. The Facts: The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite. Link UK government's response to points made by President Putin in his address to the Russian Parliament on 17 March: (covers alot of issues in thread #2) President Putin: addressed a joint session of the Russian Parliament on 17 March. Here is Her Majesty’s Government’s response to some of the points he made in his speech. President Putin: On 17 March in the Crimea, there was a referendum in full correspondence with democratic procedures and international legal norms. More than 82% of the voters took part in the referendum; more than 96% spoke for reunification with Russia. These figures are more than convincing. Response: Not only did the referendum violate Ukraine’s constitution, it was not in line with internationally agreed democratic procedures and best practices. Russian armed forces have been in Crimea for several weeks, during which time they installed a pro-Russian puppet administration that voted through a referendum via a closed parliamentary session, under watch from armed, foreign gunmen, from which MPs opposed to Russia’s agenda were excluded. The referendum’s preparation – which was just 10 days – was characterised by a complete lack of transparency over the composition of local electoral commissions, voters’ lists, and the number of ballot papers issued - with no meaningful impartial observers. The wording of the two questions posed made it impossible for voters to express support for Crimea’s existing status within Ukraine – nor were the questions on the ballot explained, nor was there a free public debate in Crimea. There are credible reports of intimidation. The 96.7% result is wildly out of kilter with the results of a representative opinion poll, conducted by a reputable Ukrainian research institute, as recently as February 2014, which indicated that only 41% of Crimean voters supported the region’s incorporation into Russia. The turnout is also suspiciously high given wide opposition boycott. President Putin: I understand those who came out to Maidan, speaking against corruption, for peaceful protest, for just elections. Elections are there to change the power that is not good for people, but those who are behind the latest events in Ukraine were aiming a different objective. They were preparing coup d’état. They were planning to grab power without stopping before anything. Terror, murders, pogroms: everything was used. The main figures in the coup were antisemites, Russophobes, nationalists and neo-Nazis. And they determined a lot of what’s happening in Ukraine. Response: Since President Yanukovych’s departure, the Ukrainian Parliament and interim government’s actions have been in keeping with the Ukrainian Constitution. Numerous groups, including the United Nations, OSCE and the Ukrainian rabbinical association, have not seen widespread human rights violations, or anti-Semitic pogroms anywhere in Ukraine. Former President Yanukovych’s own party, the Party of the Regions, supported measures implementing the interim Ukrainian government and calling for new elections. The single greatest destabilizing force in Ukraine right now is Russia. Euromaidan was composed of a cross-spectrum of ordinary Ukrainians with a common agenda to demonstrate their opposition to abuses of power and their desire to see change. It was remarkably disciplined and self-restrained. They acted only in self-defence in response to violence initiated by the authorities under the direction of former President Yanukovych. President Putin: One of the first acts of the new authorities was scandalous revising of the law on languages. Response: Ukraine’s interim President refused to enact legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level, and Ukraine’s Prime Minister Yatseniuk has said that this proposed law will not be enacted. President Putin: It is also clear that there is no legal and executive power in Ukraine. Response: There is clear legal and executive authority in Ukraine. The abandonment of office by former President Yanukovych was confirmed by a constitutional vote in Parliament – which remained unchanged and was elected in a free vote of the people in Ukraine. The interim government was approved by an overwhelming majority in a free vote in the Ukrainian Parliament, including representatives of Yanukovych’s Party of the Regions. President Putin: Those who were resisting the putsch were threatened with repressions and punishment, and the first was Crimea – Russian-speaking Crimea. Therefore, citizens of Crimea and Sevastopol addressed themselves to Russian government to protect their lives: not to let happen in the Crimea what is happening in Kiev, Donetsk and other cities of Ukraine. Response: The OSCE High Commissioner said that she has found “no evidence of any violence or threats to the rights of Russian speakers” in Crimea. Ukrainian ombudsman Valeriya Lutkovska said that no residents of Crimea have contacted her regarding the violation of their rights. No credible/verifiable evidence has been presented to justify claims that Russian nationals are under threat in Crimea or elsewhere in Ukraine. We have seen no evidence of attacks on churches in Eastern Ukraine, as the Russians have claimed. Ukraine’s interim President refused to enact legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level. President Putin: Military forces of Russia have never entered Crimea: they were there in accordance with international agreement Response: Not true. Their equipment, armaments and training clearly mark them out as Russian troops – for example driving military vehicles with Russian licence plates. If they are local militias, why do they not openly identify themselves as such? Black Sea Fleet (BSF) personnel have operated outside their bases in contravention of BSF agreements. The General Staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces has reported that the 1st Motor Rifle Battalion Vostok of the 18th Separate Vehicle-Mounted Assault Brigade, which is stationed in Kalinovka in the Chechen Republic, is now deployed in the town of Dzhankoy in Crimea. Also servicemen of the 31st Separate Assault Brigade of the Airborne Troops, which is stationed in the Russian town of Ulyanovsk, and the 22nd Special-Purpose Brigade from the Krasnodar Territory are deployed in Crimea as well. There are a number of examples of these troops freely identifying themselves as Russian security forces – eg Military personnel at Belbeck and Simferopol airports. President Putin: Crimean authorities were also basing on Kosovo precedent that our… the precedent that was created by our Western partners with their own hands in a situation that was absolutely similar to Crimea, and they recognise Kosovo separatism… legal….The fact that, during the Kosovo… the conflict in Kosovo, there were many victims. Response: The situations in Crimea and Kosovo are not comparable. Kosovo’s eventual independence came about through a long, inclusive, internationally-sanctioned process, under the auspices of a UN Security Council Resolution, reaching an agreed political settlement. The referendum in Crimea is attempting retrospectively to legitimise the unilateral action of one state which, as last weekend’s Security Council showed, is acting in complete diplomatic isolation. Of course, Russia’s position on Kosovo does seem to be inconsistent. At a Security Council meeting on Kosovo on 18 February 2008, Ambassador Churkin for the Russian Federation said: “The unilateral declaration of independence and its recognition are incompatible with the provisions of the Helsinki Final Act, which clearly specify the principles of inviolability of frontiers and territorial integrity of States” Link Map of the area and list of previous conflict in the region involving Russian help: 6 "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Sarex Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 This thread should be renamed to global conflicts, Ukraine is not even in the spotlight anymore (if it ever was). It's more about the big players on the chessboard, that is currently Ukraine. 3 "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP
Orogun01 Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 I've been tuning in and out; what's the consensus, are we going to war or what? 2 I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
Mor Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 (edited) This thread should be renamed to global conflicts, Ukraine is not even in the spotlight anymore (if it ever was). It's more about the big players on the chessboard, that is currently Ukraine.Not really, we have modern wars thread, the usual rant thread about the guy in power who we love to hate thread(USA), while this was always about Ukraine crisis or rather the Russian involvement in it. Because lets be honest, if Russia haven't meddled in Ukraine escalating the situation for an easy real estate grab, no one would given this local protest against corruption\policy much thought(e.g. across the black sea Turkey protest against Erdogan) and if this wasn't just the most recent pretext used by Russia for a regional power grab no one would have been as alarmed.. Edited April 22, 2014 by Mor 2
Sarex Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 I've been tuning in and out; what's the consensus, are we going to war or what? Nah, pretty much no one gives enough of a **** about Ukraine to get in to a conflict with the Russians over it. 1 "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP
Orogun01 Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 I've been tuning in and out; what's the consensus, are we going to war or what? Nah, pretty much no one gives enough of a **** about Ukraine to get in to a conflict with the Russians over it. So how the hell the discussion has been over 3 threads already?...Oby's been here hasn't he/she? 1 I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
Sarex Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 So how the hell the discussion has been over 3 threads already?...Oby's been here hasn't he/she? That is pretty much why I said rename the thread. Yes it is about Ukraine but the discussion tangents a lot in to other conflicts around the world as people make comparisons. I mean half of the previous thread was about, what is modern warfare and what are the military capabilities of the US and Russia and then that tangents in to what are their economic capabilities, which it self leads to what type of economy does the US have vs what type Russia has. Yeah all that isn't about Ukraine, but it is important in understanding why no one is willing to directly help them. 1 "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP
Mor Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 (edited) @Orogun01, From the other thread something similar. In short the consensus was awlays that no direct action will be taken over this, the idea is to make sure that Russia don't get away with anything else igniting old animosities so that Tzat Putin can sit in his throne for another 8 years on top of his already ~15. Edited April 22, 2014 by Mor 1
Orogun01 Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 So it's a "My country can beat your country" thread. Kinda loses it's appeal when there are no superheroes involved, anyone minds if we pretend that we live in the Marvel universe? 1 I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
BruceVC Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 So it's a "My country can beat your country" thread. Kinda loses it's appeal when there are no superheroes involved, anyone minds if we pretend that we live in the Marvel universe? Maybe Orog is right, we have discussed most topics about Ukraine to death....oh wait Orog very little has been said about ......Ukrainian strippers !!!!. How would that suit you 2 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Agiel Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) Simon Ostrovsky of Vice News, famous for his reports from Ukraine called Russian Roulette, has been held since Monday by Pro-Russian militias after covering a press conference by the new self-styled mayor of Sloviansk. His last Tweet, dated April 21st, is (worryingly) as follows: "Now he's not letting reporters leave the press conference: "you'll go as you came in. In a group." That's one way to guarantee coverage." Edited April 23, 2014 by Agiel 2 Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling
Sarex Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 So it's a "My country can beat your country" thread. Kinda loses it's appeal when there are no superheroes involved, anyone minds if we pretend that we live in the Marvel universe? Russia ain't my country, neither is the US. I'm a DC guy. 1 "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP
obyknven Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Metropolitan vice president arrive in colonial government of Ukraine. He outraged by rebellion in colony. Rebellion in colonial army, officers use guns against soldiers. http://youtu.be/EvTcKnz9PBk Military Rules and Regulations of colonial army. Miners begin labor strike after series of arrests. http://youtu.be/rI15Di9MW6E "100 000-strong" pro-metropolitan demonstration in Eastern Ukraine. Ministry of Truth continue own work. Ukrainian patriot (aka "pro-Russian separatist" and "terrorist" from Eastern Ukraine). Such guys fight against colonial government for independence of Ukraine. Citizens of colony like them. 1
Hassat Hunter Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Likewise... actually... my country hasn't ever been mentioned in the old threats... just the overachieving EU. In that case, it was more a "my county/EU sucks more than your country" discussion... and we definitely won! ^ I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5. TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee
BruceVC Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Likewise... actually... my country hasn't ever been mentioned in the old threats... just the overachieving EU. In that case, it was more a "my county/EU sucks more than your country" discussion... and we definitely won! Hassat where do you live? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Hassat Hunter Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Netherlands 1 ^ I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5. TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee
Malcador Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 So how the hell the discussion has been over 3 threads already?...Oby's been here hasn't he/she? Well, you know how forums can be - people like to argue. Oddly Oby was pretty quiet in that thread, relatively anyway. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Gorgon Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Why is Khazakstan all smug. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all.
BruceVC Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Netherlands Nice, so you get to eat Old Amsterdam cheese all day and smoke weed...what a life "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Hassat Hunter Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Yup, while walking around tulips (wearing clomps!) and seeing mills everywhere. Since that's not a stereotype at all... 1 ^ I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5. TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee
BruceVC Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Yup, while walking around tulips (wearing clomps!) and seeing mills everywhere. Since that's not a stereotype at all... Exactly and you guys like to put your fingers in dykes for fun to stop water flooding your flat land right ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
BruceVC Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Why is Khazakstan all smug. They and Belarus are aligned to Russia through a customs union. Its the Russian equivalent to the EU...."snigger" "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
obyknven Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Why is Khazakstan all smug. Hint: South Ossetia and Abkhazia also.
obyknven Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 They and Belarus are aligned to Russia through a customs union. Its the Russian equivalent to the EU...."snigger" Wrong. Customs union is Russian equivalent to Holy Roman Empire of Maximilian I. EU is much more despotic thing.
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