Ukraine Redux

[Gorgon]

What people ?. I haven't noticed anyone denying the far right presence in the interim government.

[Fighter]

What people ?. I haven't noticed anyone denying the far right presence in the interim government.

 

Just in case then. If anyone still had any illusions.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Will be interesting to see if far-right influences cause any damage to Ukraine.

[Mor]

 

What people ?. I haven't noticed anyone denying the far right presence in the interim government.

Just in case then. If anyone still had any illusions.

 

I don't where you live but the issue of far right movements has always been a concern in the EU\Russia\etc. Concerning the situation here, the latest Ukrainian election have been covered, the current situation has been covered, including in the BBC faq summary I linked with indepth cover on the actors and we "discussed" ( I personally agreed with situation, when sarex(?) linked an article about it) - so no one is hiding anything.

 

The illusion here is not their presence, but their influence. Russian media tried to delegitimize the Euromaide by changing the topic from the reforms and police which wasn't inline with their interest, by changing the focus, turning radical margins into mainstream focusing on the clashes only (which iirc when the right sector first ~appeared, because certain types are drawn to such conflict, just as goons that was employed against them) downplaying government violent dispersal, turning on the fear mongering with pictures of violent clashes, talks of fascist and they come to get you build up - work every time and work especially well for Russian ethnic who mostly consume Russian state media. Later Russia implied that the votes that were taken by the unchanged Ukrainian house of representatives as the work of those fascist and its because those fascist goverment they can cancle their previous agreements with Ukraine ... you get the picture.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Mor

[AGX-17]

I actually spit out a drink laughing when oby presented Russia (as some sort of rat-human hybrid, as though that's some grandiose imagery,) as the liberator of Europe from itself (see: everything he's ever said about Western Europe/Europeans.) A country which has never really been considered part of Europe, with a culture that's never really been considered European, with no cultural/ethnic connections or heritage shared with western Europe prior to 40-30,000 BCE. 99.7% comedy gold.

 

If the U.S. government had half a brain it'd start brown-nosing China to create a trans-pacific anti-Soviet economic bloc. Not like America whinging about human rights violations in either the USSR or China has resulted in them changing anything, anyway.

 

 

Will be interesting to see if far-right influences cause any damage to Ukraine.

I wonder if Ukraine's proud STALKERs will step up to fight a guerrilla war against the Russkies after they eventually invade Ukraine proper.

[Cultist]

Will be interesting to see if far-right influences cause any damage to Ukraine.

They sure do. I'd say they cause more damage than all others combined. They discredit the government and coalition that is now in power. In that - they are the most precious asset of pro-russian propaganda. It's like a wet dream of all politicans - having your political opponent allied to a bunch of people who march in SS uniforms and proclaim ethnic cleansing or similar political suicides. Imagine a GOP politican, who will advocate reinstitution of the slavery but whom could not be expunged from GOP.

Just a several seconds of googling brought me this jewel:

http://youtu.be/1c6eYId4fPE

...a bunch of Svoboda party members violently forces general director of 1-st Ukranian TV channel to resign on basis of being non-ukrainian(which is not true) and accusation of allowing artists from Russia on his channels and broadcasting yesterday Putin's speech.

It's like if you are standing for strict gun control and suddenly some member of your pro-gun opponents go on a killing spree with assault rifles in both hands.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Cultist

[Agiel]

What people ?. I haven't noticed anyone denying the far right presence in the interim government.

 

I think how some Russians are so quick to denounce the entire pro-Ukrainian movement as "Fascists" to be a hilarious case of calling the kettle black given how many Russians think "Little Russia should be one with Big Russia again."

[obyknven]

 

What people ?. I haven't noticed anyone denying the far right presence in the interim government.

 

I think how some Russians are so quick to denounce the entire pro-Ukrainian movement as "Fascists" to be a hilarious case of calling the kettle black given how many Russians think "Little Russia should be one with Big Russia again."

 

Welcome to real world.

 

Svoboda was condemned in an official resolution voted and adopted by the European Parliament. The document, titled “European Parliament of 13 December, 2012 on the Situation in Ukraine,” is available online.

In section 8 of the resolution, the EU’s legislative body declares itself “concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada,” the Ukrainian parliament.

Stating that “racist, anti-Semitic, and xenophobic views go against the EU’s fundamental values,” the European Parliament “therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse, or form coalitions with this party.”

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&language=EN&reference=P7-TA-2012-507

[BruceVC]

 

Will be interesting to see if far-right influences cause any damage to Ukraine.

They sure do. I'd say they cause more damage than all others combined. They discredit the government and coalition that is now in power. In that - they are the most precious asset of pro-russian propaganda. It's like a wet dream of all politicans - having your political opponent allied to a bunch of people who march in SS uniforms and proclaim ethnic cleansing or similar political suicides. Imagine a GOP politican, who will advocate reinstitution of the slavery but whom could not be expunged from GOP.

Just a several seconds of googling brought me this jewel:

http://youtu.be/1c6eYId4fPE

...a bunch of Svoboda party members violently forces general director of 1-st Ukranian TV channel to resign on basis of being non-ukrainian(which is not true) and accusation of allowing artists from Russia on his channels and broadcasting yesterday Putin's speech.

It's like if you are standing for strict gun control and suddenly some member of your pro-gun opponents go on a killing spree with assault rifles in both hands.

 

 

I think this whole argument that the new Ukrainian government is influenced by Neo-Nazi's and right-wingers is grossly exaggerated. Russia is just using this as a another justification around the Crimean annexation. Where are all the credible examples of how pro-Russians in Ukraine have been killed and marginalized by these fascists?. I haven't seen  any serious discussion on any international news channel, except on RT, that highlights the perceived threat around these so-called right wing groups

 

@ Cultist

 

You are being manipulated by the Russian propaganda machine, it suprises me as I always considered you a free thinker .. 

[Mor]

There was news that Ukraine's military base in Crimea was stormed and one Ukraine's soldier was shot dead during that raid.

 

Attackers are unknown currently, but there is really only three possibilities, Russian's did it, so called Crimea's self defense forces did it or Ukraine's troop did it themselves (which is of course very unlikely, but probably something that Russian's media could try spin around as truth, giving that reason what I earlier mentioned)

 

EDIT:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/ukraine-crisis-putin-plan-crimea-annex-speech-russia-live

 

My prediction failed, Russian media's story is that dead soldier was not Ukraine's soldier, but member of "self defense" forces that was killed by sniper.

So what the news on this sniper?

 

One thing I've learned about RT from the Ukraine crisis is that it's like  the other Fox News. Their attempts at keeping a straight face while always sticking to the script is laughable.

I don't like Fox news but at least I cab say that they believe in what they say. I don't if that can be said about RT or any of the rest of Russian state media.

[Tagaziel]

I think this whole argument that the new Ukrainian government is influenced by Neo-Nazi's and right-wingers is grossly exaggerated. Russia is just using this as a another justification around the Crimean annexation. Where are all the credible examples of how pro-Russians in Ukraine have been killed and marginalized by these fascists?. I haven't seen  any serious discussion on any international news channel, except on RT, that highlights the perceived threat around these so-called right wing groups

 

Indeed. I find it amusing that people are focusing on the far right that might cause damage (currently limited to isolated incidents), but handwave Russian aggression comparable to the totalitarian actions of the Soviet Union and Third Reich, like the Anschluss or the occupation of the Baltic states. I wonder which nation with a significant Russian ethnic population will be next. Latvia? Estonia? Will Putin finish what Stalin started and dump the Tatars somewhere else, so that his "endangered Russians" can be safe?

 

In other news, an interesting point.

 

And a decent summary with sources:

 

http://www.nucleardiner.com/archive/item/ukraine-update-17-march-2014

Edited March 19, 2014 by Tagaziel

[obyknven]

It's funny how Polish guys trying advocate Ukrainian Nazi.  Meanwhile in Poland acts same Nazi and majority of Poles worship same ideology.

http://www.snafu-solomon.blogspot.ru/2014/03/russians-conduct-administrative-landing.html#comment-form

 

 

People are nervous, they try to live and work as always but you can see that they are disturbed. Ukraine is not the first country they invade and occupy, Poland was under Russians occupation for many years. Couple of times in our history Russians "liberate" us from our lives, our freedom, our land... they almost fracture the spirit of my nation. You can NEVER trust Russians, they understand only one argument, force. Strong, brutal force. If they know only force then you can speak with them with more force. Russians are simple people, easy to subjugate by strong leader. They have the old saying "Good Tsar, bad Tsar", they are a band of sheep's that need to lead by lion.

We know them well, we are the strongest enemy of Russian in EU. We ask for action, something, anything more then words, words, words... we learn that you don't speak with Russians, you take them by throat and hit the face with fist some many times that they bleed and lie under your feet. Then you can speak to them.

We are afraid Sol, afraid that Russia get back to it's imperialistic dream of great empire. We afraid of new war, we saw that... last time we saw exactly the same thing the dude was named Adolf Hitler and he want to "liberate" oppressed Germans minority in Czechoslovakia and then in Poland. We don't want to see in Kerry next Chamberlain.

In other hand we are happy that Germans show us the support, even if in words they are supporting. That whole word condemn this invasion and even, this is very, VERY important Sol, China stand opposed to Russia. First time, they don't speak one voice, this is very important thing. Those additional F-16 ( even if older gen then our own ) and NATO AWACS is also warm sight, more for morale then real military support but still. Maybe this time we will be not alone against aggression of Soviets.

Nice! Most funny thing. We predict:  when Liberator Russians come in future time  into Poland for punish of these small right-wing bastards - in same moment Poles begin whining about  bro Slavs friendship, liberal values and cosplay innocent victims of aggression as Ukrainians do now.

[obyknven]

Insider info. 

 

Kiev sell everything in Ukraine to corporations  Chevron (gas pipes system) and Ruhr ( metallurgy to  German and Finnish filial's).

Russia sign contracts for rebuild of Crimea  with German and Finnish corporations - Kone, Metso-Valmet, Pöyry, Lemminkainen Group.

 

Oh lol, participation of Ukraine IRL. As we known Chewron and BND create Maidan overthrow,  while Russia cover these actions by invasion treat and  Crimea annexation,  this is just good cop bad cop play while our capitalists rob Ukraine. 

 

[Fighter]

I don't where you live but the issue of far right movements has always been a concern in the EU\Russia\etc. Concerning the situation here, the latest Ukrainian election have been covered, the current situation has been covered, including in the BBC faq summary I linked with indepth cover on the actors and we "discussed" ( I personally agreed with situation, when sarex(?) linked an article about it) - so no one is hiding anything.

The illusion here is not their presence, but their influence. Russian media tried to delegitimize the Euromaide by changing the topic from the reforms and police which wasn't inline with their interest, by changing the focus, turning radical margins into mainstream focusing on the clashes only (which iirc when the right sector first ~appeared, because certain types are drawn to such conflict, just as goons that was employed against them) downplaying government violent dispersal, turning on the fear mongering with pictures of violent clashes, talks of fascist and they come to get you build up - work every time and work especially well for Russian ethnic who mostly consume Russian state media.

 

They have real influential sits in the government right now and they hate Russians. There is no government of national unity representing all sides. But keep telling yourselves these people have no influence when they hold such important posts and are literally Nazis.

 

You think I want to take over Ukraine? I actually don't support it at all. But Ukrainians have to deal with this ****.

 

Later Russia implied that the votes that were taken by the unchanged Ukrainian house of representatives as the work of those fascist and its because those fascist goverment they can cancle their previous agreements with Ukraine ... you get the picture.

 

 

 

Right... Exactly. The same exact parliament changing tune completely after the physical power in the streets changed hands and they are guarded not by trained police but by guys with clubs from Svoboda parties. People bring guns and hammers into official meetings, Svoboda party members force people to resign by beating them up. Nothing suspicious here at all. No duress and threat of lynch justice at all by those same fascists who do these things with impunity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2014 by Fighter

[Mor]

You think I want to take over Ukraine? I actually don't support it at all. But Ukrainians have to deal with this ****.

Unless you missed a step Ukrainian is dealing with a Financial crisis, national crisis, Russia aggression etc. If you know a better way to deal with "it" then calling for early election to re establish public confidence and deal with all the issues through the established measures I would love to hear it. Because as I said before Russia screaming "it" has nothing todo with Ukraine dealing with it, and everything todo with its selfish interests.

 

Btw, you might want to familiarize yourself with the other actors http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25910834

 

 

Later Russia implied that the votes that were taken by the unchanged Ukrainian house of representatives as the work of those fascist and its because those fascist government they can cancel their previous agreements with Ukraine ... you get the picture.

 

Right... Exactly. The same exact parliament changing tune completely after the physical power in the streets changed hands and they are guarded not by trained police but by guys with clubs from Svoboda parties. People bring guns and hammers into official meetings, Svoboda party members force people to resign by beating them up. Nothing suspicious here at all. No duress and threat of lynch justice at all by those same fascists who do these things with impunity.

 

kid you might want to watch something other than Russian news or whatever oby like conpiracy crap you have been consuming.

 

The parliament dealt with escalating national crisis, voting out the president who failed to deal with it and run away. Calling for early elections, it is pretty standard procedure in such circumstances.

 

 

They sure do. I'd say they cause more damage than all others combined. They discredit the government and coalition that is now in power.

..

Imagine a GOP politican, who will advocate reinstitution of the slavery but whom could not be expunged from GOP.

I think that Obama is a Muslim example would be far more appropriate example in this case..

 

Also I wish someone will make a comparison between Russian and Ukrainian far-right movements, to put things into perspective. i.e. all those movements that has been breading since Putin came to power with his soft nationalistic pitch, even if he plays whackemall as far as who get to be in charge.

[Malcador]

It is funny that it's either or for some people, one can be worried about Nazis or other whackos coming into power in Ukraine or just being off a leash there and that is separate from Russia's actions in Crimea.  

 

Western media has covered the rise of right wing groups in Ukraine, though the articles I've read are either "There is no problem, it is overblown!!" or the "Well, maybe, but who can tell for sure".  Former is suspicious, the latter's probably accurate but not all that handy.

[Mor]

 

I think this whole argument that the new Ukrainian government is influenced by Neo-Nazi's and right-wingers is grossly exaggerated. Russia is just using this as a another justification around the Crimean annexation. Where are all the credible examples of how pro-Russians in Ukraine have been killed and marginalized by these fascists?. I haven't seen  any serious discussion on any international news channel, except on RT, that highlights the perceived threat around these so-called right wing groups

 

Indeed. I find it amusing that people are focusing on the far right that might cause damage (currently limited to isolated incidents), but handwave Russian aggression comparable to the totalitarian actions of the Soviet Union and Third Reich, like the Anschluss or the occupation of the Baltic states. I wonder which nation with a significant Russian ethnic population will be next. Latvia? Estonia? Will Putin finish what Stalin started and dump the Tatars somewhere else, so that his "endangered Russians" can be safe?

 

In other news, an interesting point.

 

And a decent summary with sources:

 

http://www.nucleardiner.com/archive/item/ukraine-update-17-march-2014

 

Interesting, but I don't see this effecting anything. IMO it mostly show how Russia dealing with syria effected its standing with Turkey.

 

Also Alaska was Russian once, no

 

 

It is funny that it's either or for some people, one can be worried about Nazis or other whackos coming into power in Ukraine or just being off a leash there and that is separate from Russia's actions in Crimea.

That exactly it, we are worried about rise of nationalism in many places all round the world ( including Russia ), but our worries about the specific situation in Ukraine, doesn't translate in any way or form to an excuse Russian aggression in Ukraine, violation of its agreements and just plan simple excuse for quick real estate grab. Edited March 19, 2014 by Mor

[BruceVC]

It is funny that it's either or for some people, one can be worried about Nazis or other whackos coming into power in Ukraine or just being off a leash there and that is separate from Russia's actions in Crimea.  

 

Western media has covered the rise of right wing groups in Ukraine, though the articles I've read are either "There is no problem, it is overblown!!" or the "Well, maybe, but who can tell for sure".  Former is suspicious, the latter's probably accurate but not all that handy.

 

Malc I don't want you to worry, the influence of Neo-Nazi's in Ukraine is no problem and is overblown. Its just Russian propaganda, these are the facts

Edited March 19, 2014 by BruceVC

[Tagaziel]

Also Alaska was Russian once, no

Yeah, but it was transferred properly to the United States. Something the tsardom later regretted a great deal.

[Fighter]

 

Unless you missed a step Ukrainian is dealing with a Financial crisis, national crisis, Russia aggression etc. If you know a better way to deal with "it" then calling for early election to re establish public confidence and deal with all the issues through the established measures I would love to hear it. Because as I said before Russia screaming "it" has nothing todo with Ukraine dealing with it, and everything todo with its selfish interests.

 

 

It's nice that those things are a bigger priority to you and western world than ethnic Russian people and what it means for them when Nazis hold defense posts that would among other things potentially make them at this very moment participants in, for example, dealing with security control of parts of the country populated by people they don't like.

 

Yes this is our "selfish interests" not to have Nazis participate in that.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Fighter

[Malcador]

That exactly it, we are worried about rise of nationalism in many places all round the world ( including Russia ), but our worries about the specific situation in Ukraine, doesn't translate in any way or form to an excuse Russian aggression in Ukraine, violation of its agreements and just plan simple excuse for quick real estate grab.

Seems one side pretends it's a big deal whereas the other claims it is a non-issue. In any event, that's justification for, heh, regime change in Ukraine by Russia not just Crimea itself.

 

Kind of a crappy end to this, perhaps leaving Yanukovich there until elections was a better plan (hindsight, anyway).

[Tagaziel]

It's nice that those things are a bigger priority to you and western world than ethnic Russian people and what it means for them when Nazis hold defense posts that would among other things potentially make them at this very moment participants in, for example, dealing with security control of parts of the country populated by people they don't like.

 

Yes this is our "selfish interests" not to have Nazis participate in that.

Do you have a credible reference that those Neo-Nazis are on a rampage throughout Ukraine? That they are implementing "self defense" brigades that are targeting ethnic Russians? Preparing to commit genocide or ethnic cleansing?

 

Because so far, Crimea is the problem. And Tatars fear further problems.

 

Furthermore, if Russia really wanted to protect Russians, it would not invade and occupy Ukraine, pressing the berserk button of a nation long oppressed by Russia.

[BruceVC]

 

It's nice that those things are a bigger priority to you and western world than ethnic Russian people and what it means for them when Nazis hold defense posts that would among other things potentially make them at this very moment participants in, for example, dealing with security control of parts of the country populated by people they don't like.

 

Yes this is our "selfish interests" not to have Nazis participate in that.

Do you have a credible reference that those Neo-Nazis are on a rampage throughout Ukraine? That they are implementing "self defense" brigades that are targeting ethnic Russians? Preparing to commit genocide or ethnic cleansing?

 

Because so far, Crimea is the problem. And Tatars fear further problems.

 

Furthermore, if Russia really wanted to protect Russians, it would not invade and occupy Ukraine, pressing the berserk button of a nation long oppressed by Russia.

 

 

Also just to reiterate this point, even up to yesterday during Putin's speech the Russian stance has been about " needing to protect the Russian speaking Ukrainians from fascists and attacks and persecution"

 

Okay we get that, Russian speaking communities in the Crimea and Ukraine  are besieged by aggressive Neo-Nazi's. Now can we get some evidance....just one or two sources outside of RT.

[Fighter]

Oh so you want Russians to die or to be discriminated against first? Because a party with openly recorded Nazi ideology taking security posts is no cause for concern at all? Ethnic Russians should just sit quietly and shut-up when racist russophobes are in charge of defense posts? No potential problem from this at such a devise and volatile time?

 

Whatever. I have nothing more to say to you.

 

For the record I never said I approved of any invasion.

[BruceVC]

Oh so you want Russians to die or to be discriminated against first? Because a party with openly recorded Nazi ideology taking security posts is no cause for concern at all? Ethnic Russians should just sit quietly and shut-up when racist russophobes are in charge of defense posts? No potential problem from this at such a devise and volatile time?

 

Whatever. I have nothing more to say to you.

 

For the record I never said I approved of any invasion.

 

Yeah I thought as much, you won't be able to find evidence of fascist attacks against Russian speaking Ukrainians because its not true. I'm not attacking you personally Fighter, I'm just highlighting how ridiculous part of  the justification from Russia is around the annexing of Crimea. Lets just be honest, Russia wants a buffer zone between it and EU\NATO friendly countries and Crimea is part of that. This situation has NOTHING to do with a threat from fascists and persecution of Russian speaking Ukrainians