Dragon Age: Inquisition

[BruceVC]

uati

Hey, if women don't like how they are portrayed in video games, then why are they playing them?

 

Actually, I joke, but that's probably what Drowsy believes.

 

That's how many people see the situation

[Bryy]

So many people think so many things about women and video games, it's not even funny. There's really hardly any joke you could make that is not reality.

[Orogun01]

 

uati

Hey, if women don't like how they are portrayed in video games, then why are they playing them?

 

Actually, I joke, but that's probably what Drowsy believes.

 

That's how many people see the situation

 

Whereas how I see their argument is "Games made for male audience should cater more to women" Instead of asking more games targeted at them. Partly I believe the problem is that there isn't an idea of what a woman's game is. IMO cause feminist seem incapable of enjoying anything, which if they could they wouldn't be feminists in the first place.

[Bryy]

You were doing so well, then you wrote the second sentence.

[Volourn]

There are games targeted to and are popular with women but if you point them out you are sexist. Of course, men are stereotyped all the time. Big deal.

 

Plus, men are not the only perverts. Women are just as perverted if not more so. Just check in with all the Beiber/boy band fangirls. R00fles!

[BruceVC]

 

 

uati

Hey, if women don't like how they are portrayed in video games, then why are they playing them?

 

Actually, I joke, but that's probably what Drowsy believes.

 

That's how many people see the situation

 

Whereas how I see their argument is "Games made for male audience should cater more to women" Instead of asking more games targeted at them. Partly I believe the problem is that there isn't an idea of what a woman's game is. IMO cause feminist seem incapable of enjoying anything, which if they could they wouldn't be feminists in the first place.

 

 

But why do you think many games cater for a male audience, I agree with this by the way. It doesn't make it right but its the reality.

 

Do you remember that article Alan (I miss Alan, I wonder when he is going to come back) posted a while ago how Sony and other large software companies intentionally targeted the male fan base from the 1980's. So now we have situation where we need to be more inclusive around gaming design in some cases as there is a skewed perception around what consumers want. Do you think this would help around the objectification of women in games?

[Bryy]

There are games targeted to and are popular with women but if you point them out you are sexist. 

Only if the context is "look, you guys have games over there, just play in that corner".

Edited April 12, 2014 by Bryy

[BruceVC]

There are games targeted to and are popular with women but if you point them out you are sexist. Of course, men are stereotyped all the time. Big deal.

 

Plus, men are not the only perverts. Women are just as perverted if not more so. Just check in with all the Beiber/boy band fangirls. R00fles!

 

So this is really the problem as you see it Volo? Men are stereotyped in games and there are games that are designed only for women and this is sexist?

[Volourn]

"So this is really the problem as you see it Volo? Men are stereotyped in games and there are games that are designed only for women and this is sexist?"

 

No, the problem is the constant whining about how evil men are and how men are just rapists who only exist to rape, control, and destroy women. And, don't for a second, try to pretend that isn't what a sizeable amount of people - men and women - who claim to be 'feminist' think.

 

I have no issue with games 'designed for women' or games 'designed for men'. Heck, or movies. I'm not one of those crybaby males who whine about being 'dragged' to the latest romantic comedy either.

 

As for games, instead of worrying about what games are designed for which gender, how about developers jjust devlop games they think are good and potential customers can decide whether or not to buy it.

 

Another fact: Both men and women  (not counting gays obviously for obvious reasons) are attracted to the opposite sex. That doesn't make them perverts. As men go gag over pretty women, women will gaga over 'pretty boys'.  I don't cry about sexism every time I hear/read some woman talking about some guy's sexy ass so women (and their white knights whoa re often 10x worse) whining about guys talking about women's boobs are pathetic whiny little babies/ Get over yourself.

 

My main point is that stereotypes exist for both genders. NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.

[ShadySands]

So, when can I pre-order this?

[Malekith]

Volourn making sense.

What kind of bizzare universe i found myself in?

[Drowsy Emperor]

@Bryy

I don't have an argument, I don't care one bit for the whole discussion.  I've never a person who does and that includes the few gamer girls that I know.

 

If you have no cause in your life to rally around apart from witch-hunting in a very transitory medium that predominantly caters to teenagers, then your life is in serious trouble bro. 

 

 

 

...Volo the voice of reason, now I've seen it all.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[BruceVC]

"So this is really the problem as you see it Volo? Men are stereotyped in games and there are games that are designed only for women and this is sexist?"

 

No, the problem is the constant whining about how evil men are and how men are just rapists who only exist to rape, control, and destroy women. And, don't for a second, try to pretend that isn't what a sizeable amount of people - men and women - who claim to be 'feminist' think.

 

I have no issue with games 'designed for women' or games 'designed for men'. Heck, or movies. I'm not one of those crybaby males who whine about being 'dragged' to the latest romantic comedy either.

 

As for games, instead of worrying about what games are designed for which gender, how about developers jjust devlop games they think are good and potential customers can decide whether or not to buy it.

 

Another fact: Both men and women  (not counting gays obviously for obvious reasons) are attracted to the opposite sex. That doesn't make them perverts. As men go gag over pretty women, women will gaga over 'pretty boys'.  I don't cry about sexism every time I hear/read some woman talking about some guy's sexy ass so women (and their white knights whoa re often 10x worse) whining about guys talking about women's boobs are pathetic whiny little babies/ Get over yourself.

 

My main point is that stereotypes exist for both genders. NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.

 

You've raised some good points but I think  you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what feminism means. I am feminist and all it means is that you believe that  women have equal rights to men and I am opposed to cases where those rights aren't equal. Some of the examples you gave  have more to do with the objectification of women or sexual inappropriate comments

 

Feminism doesn't mean you hate men or think men are rapists. If that has been your experience you weren't dealing with feminists but people who clearly were discriminating against men.

Edited April 12, 2014 by BruceVC

[TheChris92]

The ironic thing is that game developers can't seem to grasp an accurate portrayal of your average gamer either, without resorting to stereotypes -- Heck in GTA V there is the son of Michael and then there's that one bloke from inFamous Second Son. You'd think if any medium wanted to avoid insulting stereotypes of videogamers it would be videogames, but there he is! In his big glasses and spots, and longing for the day he finally moves past pubescent bum-fluff so he can finally grow his first neckbeard.

Edited April 12, 2014 by TheChris92

[TheChris92]

 

 

Feminism doesn't mean you hate men or think men are rapists. If that has been your experience you weren't dealing with feminists but people who clearly were discriminating against men.

Must be the whole "ism" thing.

Edited April 12, 2014 by TheChris92

[Orogun01]

But why do you think many games cater for a male audience, I agree with this by the way. It doesn't make it right but its the reality.

 

Do you remember that article Alan (I miss Alan, I wonder when he is going to come back) posted a while ago how Sony and other large software companies intentionally targeted the male fan base from the 1980's. So now we have situation where we need to be more inclusive around gaming design in some cases as there is a skewed perception around what consumers want. Do you think this would help around the objectification of women in games?

One of the argument used to justify how video game violence doesn't translate into real world violence is that people have the ability to tell one from the other. Did we lose that capacity in the last decade? So why should objectifying be an issue since we know that it is not real?

 

Game companies cater to male audiences because male audiences have made the bulk of core gamers for the past 30 something years. Before you quote the now infamous "women make half of gamers" statistic, that is a misinterpretation of the data. The sample included social games played over Facebook, and IOS.

If you question is why that demographic hasn't made the jump then there is a number of factors at play that can be summed up as publishers don't want to invest capital on a gamble when they can have a safe bet.

Also I hate the use of the word inclusive as  if it were a virtue as if somehow it made something better. I frankly don't see how would a period piece be made better by being more inclusive to the point of anachronism and alienating the audience. Of course it might satisfy the SJW who are so far up their own asses that have come to believe that their metaphors are the same thing as real life.

On a semi-related note; it seems to me that you have a different idea of what feminism is than what is actually happening.

I don't know how you can say feminism doesn't think men are rapists and believe in rape culture without a massive cognitive dissonance. Its a bit concerning because I though you capable of critical thinking.

Also, there is a lot of quotes from leading feminists explicitly saying that men are rapists.

 

And dragons, darkspawn and stuff

[Drowsy Emperor]

You're one useful Cuban, saved me a ton of work there

[Malekith]

The reason i find the complains ridiculous, is because they use the word "inclusive" as if it's a worthy goal all by itself. What they miss is that this same attitude is actualy harming some of their goals. As Gaider said, having a transgendered main character (or even a forced female lead) would alienate most of the audience, so it won't happen. The market isn't ready. Quess what, it will never be ready. What should happen is games becoming more exclusive, instead of aiming for the mass appeal.

 

Some people want to play a gay/lesbian/furry/Alien character and see the game provide more that a token representation? Make a game that offers exactly that, and **** the haters.

Some people like seeing women just as sexual objects, and want a macho "white male" character collect sex cards? Make a game that offers exactly that, and **** the haters.

Some people want the middle road, or sidesteps the issue entirely? Make a game that offers exactly that, and **** the haters. etc.

 

This need to make the same game appealing to all kinds of audiences with completey different wants, makes games that offer no one what he wants completely, hence all the tension between the groups as far as this subject goes.

No one HAS TO like your game. just make the game you want, and **** the haters. But of course this would mean budgeting the games sensibly and stop chasing the Angy Birds audience as if all these people would play your game and it's not enough "inclusivity" that stops them.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Malekith

[tajerio]

On a semi-related note; it seems to me that you have a different idea of what feminism is than what is actually happening.

I don't know how you can say feminism doesn't think men are rapists and believe in rape culture without a massive cognitive dissonance. Its a bit concerning because I though you capable of critical thinking.

Also, there is a lot of quotes from leading feminists explicitly saying that men are rapists.

 

That's a classic case of an interpretive problem we often run into on these very fora.  There is certainly a small vocal minority of feminists that basically support the position you've articulated. But that doesn't therefore mean that the majority of people who consider themselves feminists also think that men are by nature rapists.  It would be nigh impossible to generate evidence for that viewpoint without simply generalizing from a small sample size, as you do there in that last sentence.  I mean, I can do exactly the opposite, and say that of all the feminists I've met, not one of them has that stereotypical man-hating attitude.  And that leaves us right back at square one.

 

Bruce's definition of feminism I think is actually spot on, hewing as it does closely to common sense and not instead to a dismissive wishful generalization. 

[TheChris92]

Gonna throw my 2 cents into the whole discussion about video games sexualizing women -- One notion I really can't fathom, whenever someone brings this topic up is how 'men are sexualized to the same degree" as women. But if we take the argument that video games are designed mainly by men and for men, even though that in itself would be a generalization of gaming industry as a whole --  Wouldn't that beckon the question  -- Why would they need to sexualize men if their main target audience are male hetero-sexual teens? Who would it cater to? I think it isn't as much about sexualizing as it is making them look tough to appeal to power fantasies, which is completely different. I doubt Solid Snake was designed in mind for a female audience as it hardly seems like they were the target audience for Hideo Kojima with Metal Gear Solid. What people complain about is the focus on selling sex and titillation through the advertising and gameplay itself. Nathan Drake isn't spontaneously losing his shirt so the camera can lovingly focus on his abs. Kratos doesn't have to strut around a pole mimicking 'Singing in the Rain' ala Bayonetta to use his moves, Male commander Shepard doesn't get random camera shots of his ass during cutscenes like Miranda, Master Chief isn't stuck into a skintight bodysuit for no reason other than to show off how good looking he may be, Ryu Hyabusa isn't jumping around in Ninja Gaiden with a lovingly rendered crotch bulge that shakes as he moves, hell men don't have an entire genre of games (ecchi) that are designed solely to sexualize them for female players enjoyment. Conclusion -- Sex sells.

 

I feel like i should probably thumbnail this little link here. Whether you like the whole self-congratulating stick of Jim Sterling or not, he does make some valid points.

Edited April 12, 2014 by TheChris92

[TheChris92]

On a completely different note, related to the game even -- Cullen is now a confirmed romance. Whoopti-****ing-Goldberg. I suppose it didn't need to end with Garrus & Tali in Mass Effect. But at the very least, he was one the most likeable characters from the shower that was Dragon Age 2.

[Orogun01]

 

On a semi-related note; it seems to me that you have a different idea of what feminism is than what is actually happening.

I don't know how you can say feminism doesn't think men are rapists and believe in rape culture without a massive cognitive dissonance. Its a bit concerning because I though you capable of critical thinking.

Also, there is a lot of quotes from leading feminists explicitly saying that men are rapists.

 

That's a classic case of an interpretive problem we often run into on these very fora.  There is certainly a small vocal minority of feminists that basically support the position you've articulated. But that doesn't therefore mean that the majority of people who consider themselves feminists also think that men are by nature rapists.  It would be nigh impossible to generate evidence for that viewpoint without simply generalizing from a small sample size, as you do there in that last sentence.  I mean, I can do exactly the opposite, and say that of all the feminists I've met, not one of them has that stereotypical man-hating attitude.  And that leaves us right back at square one.

 

Bruce's definition of feminism I think is actually spot on, hewing as it does closely to common sense and not instead to a dismissive wishful generalization. 

 

Anita Sarkeesian; who won an ambassador award on GDC, has certainly used the terms rape culture and patriarchy. Terms which seem to originate within that "small"(I have no real knowledge of their numbers) minority. So it has every argument made related to feminism and games its laden with the same tones that belies their origin withing that minority.

I'm not generalizing from a small sample, that small sample happens to be some of the leading feminists in what they call Third Wave feminism and it's being taught in Academia. Otherwise things like Patriarchy and Rape Culture wouldn't have come out from the fringe elements and into the mainstream. I have said before that rational feminism should either rebrand or come out against this insanity. In game culture it seems to have taken deep roots among a group of people who for some reason see it as reasonable or advantageous.

 

@Chris: I don't subscribe to the notion can be men are sexualized in the same overt manner as women, it seems to me that the eligibility of a male lies in his competence.(There was actually a study done on that) It just bears to mind that women think and have different tastes than men.

 

Also; I get the feeling that this is turning into its own discussion and we are still on the DA thread. Although feminism and BW seem to go hand in hand nowadays.

[Volourn]

"You've raised some good points but I think  you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what feminism means. I am feminist and all it means is that you believe that  women have equal rights to men and I am opposed to cases where those rights aren't equal. Some of the examples you gave  have more to do with the objectification of women or sexual inappropriate comments

 

Feminism doesn't mean you hate men or think men are rapists. If that has been your experience you weren't dealing with feminists but people who clearly were discriminating against men."

 

Maybe when feminism first started, it had such lofty goals like actual equality. That has changed over the eyars. It's why there is so many different types of feminism. There's the type you described, there is the type that sees sexism everywhere, and then there's the type that acts like I described.

 

That said, I detest the whole idea including the name 'feminism'. Why? The very name suggests that in order for one to desire equality they need to be 'feminine' which is a joke. I  believe in equality but I'm not feminin.  The very idea of feminism is rooted in sexism and suggests to be masculine is to want to keep the ancient order of 'unbalance between the genders' which simply isn't the case. Equality has NOTHING to do with feminism. In fact, those who want equality should be fighting feminism since it is an insult to equality.

 

Afterall, ask yourself this.. if a man hits a man and that man hits back people find that perfectly fine... but if a woman hits a man and that hits back people rage against the man and accuses him of deviant behaviour and anti woman. How is that sexist? Being sexist would mean NOT hitting the woman back after she hits you like you would a man because it is considered morally wrong for a man to hit a woman no matter what. Why is that? Even now, for even feminists, think women are weak willed creatures who have no power and need to be treated and protected liek children. That is a diservice to women to lump them in with little kiddies.

 

'Think of the women and children." is a very  backward sexist saying but all of us are guilty of thinking it.

[TheChris92]

 

@Chris: I don't subscribe to the notion can be men are sexualized in the same overt manner as women, it seems to me that the eligibility of a male lies in his competence.(There was actually a study done on that) It just bears to mind that women think and have different tastes than men.

 

Also; I get the feeling that this is turning into its own discussion and we are still on the DA thread. Although feminism and BW seem to go hand in hand nowadays.

 

My post wasn't referring to you specifically, but part of what you said was related to the same rather jarring counter-arguments people have brought up in the past so I just shared my thoughts on that. So how about that Cullen romance, eh?

Edited April 12, 2014 by TheChris92

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Anita Sarkeesian; who won an ambassador award on GDC, has certainly used the terms rape culture and patriarchy. 

 

 

Seriously now, for ****'s sake, what does rape culture have to do with "all men are rapists"? Or patriarchy? I've never met a single feminist who used these terms and thought "yupp, all men are rapists, no exceptions".  Quite the opposite, usually.