Ukraine burns

[Valsuelm]

Other than Hastings' convenient car crash, not much in the way of press oppression in the US.

 

 

Press oppression doesn't just come in the form of dead bodies, though Gary Webb was likely suicided, but not before he was definitely put under extreme pressure. Michael Rupert has spoken of the pressure he was put under and he backed far away of some of the things he had been reporting on as a result as he's aware of folks who get suicided like Webb (likely), Colonel Sabow (definitely), and others. Another somewhat mainstream example would be to look up and watch the documentary 'The Corporation', which is a good documentary for a variety of reasons, but it does give other examples of press oppression in the U.S..

 

Keep in mind that if the oppression is successful, you likely either don't know anything about it and/or what you know is misinformation.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Valsuelm

[213374U]

 

The line would be where the subject brings to light illegal (or even simply immoral) activities, government or corporate. If a person is aware that a crime is being committed and doesn't report it, he can be charged as accessory. The government doesn't (shouldn't) get exemption on that just because they claim to be doing it "for the common good", "for the people" or "for reasons".

 

And yes, I feel everyone should know what their government is doing. Reason #1 is because they are doing it with my taxes' money. I don't get to choose whether I pay taxes or not. Reason #2 is that I'm a distrustful and cynical **** and cannot think of a single use of secrecy that cannot (and therefore will not) be abused and subverted. Doesn't mean everyone needs to know everything immediately though. But secrecy destroys accountability. And there can be no true democracy without accountability.

Im inclined to agree with your first paragraph but disagree with your second. Imo, paying my taxes doesn't buy me the right to classified weapons system / intelligence gathering / etc... I feel those type programs must stay secret or basically lose all effectiveness.

 

Thanks for the answer.

 

 

Right, I think I should clarify that.

 

It's not that paying taxes buys me anything. Knowing what exactly has been done with the money ensures that it's not being pocketed by sleazy officials and that it's not being used for illegal purposes. And in a more practical sense, it may also serve to press for reasonable spending. It'd be closer to auditing than to having any rights over what the taxes money is buying.

 

I mean, read the Washington Post link I pasted. $75bn for intelligence (article was written in 2010), not including "some military activities and domestic counterterrorism programs". And the people running it can't tell whether it's actually working at making the country more secure!

Edited February 25, 2014 by 213374U

[Mor]

We need a Thunderthread. Two posters enter, one poster leaves.

Not really... there is no point wasting time on trolls certain immature people tend to look for arguments to prove something in some grand battle ad nauseam, or get a rise out of you. For example:

 

 

 

 

You see I know first hand how the Western media out right lies about things, that I can only imagine it's government tells it to do.

No need for wild imagination, you just described good ol' system in most Eastren countries(including Russia) where the government tells the press what is ok through harsh censorship. As demonstrated by the data I linked, so that we can avoid any statements based on our own beliefs or biases...

 

Speaking of censorship, that film you linked to make your point about america was produced in and acted by Americans. In fact many films and other media in the

"west" are openly critical of its various governments and policies. Which brings me back to Russia, when was last time that anyone was allowed to make a truly critical about Russia\Putin (in fact, some of the bigger fishes have been jailed on tramped up charges, so that others get the hint that you either with or against the "party" line ).

 

So before we continue, you need to understand that from day one you have been exposed(brainwashed) to only one point of view i.e. "Putin daily". This is particularly hard to understand to people in the east where censorship is most brutal, thus their initial experience to global media is usually WTF?! LIES! this is usually passes once you expand your foundation and figure out that the world doesn't revolve around you.

 

 

I really love how you get all high and mighty at the drop of a hat and accuse other people you know nothing about of being "brainwashed", "lazy", "complacent" and anything else you need to feel good about yourself. Compensating for something, are we?

 

The link you posted is of questionable value, for reasons I already discussed. Clearly, an unbiased analysis and discussion is much harder and effort-intensive than copypasta of the first WP page that supports your view. Here is the post where I pre-emptively discussed the WP "data":

 

 

Okay then, you know what else is funny? The Press Freedom Index (one commonly cited figure when examining this issue) does not focus only on actual dissident journalist persecution, but rather on how easy it is for journalists to go about their work—including, but not limited to, public media independence, self-censorship and legislation. The questionnaire from which this index is derived also takes into consideration other factors influencing professional journalists, as in basically bribes and also how many really independent privately owned media companies exist, if any. This aggregate index puts Venezuela at roughly the same level as Israel and ahead of faithful western ally Turkey. For exactly what reasons? Impossible to know! Amusing, huh?

 

bushthatsheetididntreaditlol.gif

 

Now, I'm not an expert on Russian media, I know very little of the actual hurdles journalists have to overcome to do their job over there. And unless you are Russian, I'm not going to take your word for it, either.

 

But what I do know is that western mainstream media are so under the control of private interests that there is no functional difference between a central government censorship agency and "editorial lines" that journalists have to follow or face sacking.

 

What good is a right if it's not exercised? Heh.

 

 

 

First paragraph is an attempt to get a rise, a personal attack hocked to tangibly related term "brainwashed". (used as an analog to describe, the long time standing harsh censorship in Russia, which limit available points of view to its citizen)

 

Then he tries to dismiss the data complied on print, broadcast, and internet freedom(free Press index) and analysed by experts, by making assertion about its validity and attributing it to some questioner about an unrelated index about journalists. (plus some BS about Israel and turkey, and amusing himself)

 

Then after agreeing with himself about the above, he dismiss criticism about censorship in Russia media since: he is not "an expert on Russian media" and knows "very little of..journalists..there" and that "unless you are Russian" he isn't going to take your word for it.

 

While making a parallel sweeping statement about western mainstream media, so presumably he he is "an expert" on all western countries mainstream media, knows enough about journalists in those countries, and native to them otherwise why would should we take his word for it...

 

Finally, flushed with yet again unrelated BS that going further from the topic which no one can prove.

 

 

To sum it up, he dismiss data by experts, so he can turn this into he said she said diarrhea. Which is why you don't argue with a troll. They tend hang on some BS or quote out of context so they can jump to some BS tangible topic within their comfort zone, so they can win some BS point...

Edited February 25, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

Well, he could actually be trying to argue with you rather than trolling you.

[Zoraptor]

 

First 2 are whistle blowers not journalist, the rest are dead and it speculation who killed them, because nothing has been proven. Not one was put in jail by the government. But the point stands there is no free press in Russia. But does that mean that because there are no dead reporters that we know of in America, they have free press?

 

Actually... there are dead reporters in America. A recent one is Michael Hastings.

 

 

And you can add a bunch killed in military actions by the US, too. That was of course the thing that really prompted Collateral Murder to be a big thing. Not the death of Iraqi civilians, not chaingunning a father and his children who stopped to help, but the fact that the previous people killed included journalists.

 

And, of course, it illustrates another factor in terms of their not being press freedom. There's the practice of embedding, where favourable journalists get rewarded with exclusive access that "tells the true story"- it doesn't, of course, there are multiple restrictions and the journalists picked are already sympathetic, and made more so by being in very stressful situations with the people they're reporting on. There's also the practice of outright lying, and denying reporters access. There's no reason at all to have blocked Collateral Murder except for PR reasons. The US knew what had happened pretty much from the get go, but lied about it because it would make bad domestic copy. The argument always was that it would provoke anti US reactions like the Abu Ghraib photos did- but if you were in Iraq you knew about multiple such events because they happened there.

 

In the more general sense you can see the acritical streak in western journalism very easily in the gaming media, and it is reflected in the more serious media as well. A very large proportion of both involves mindlessly regurgitating stuff given to them by interested parties- specified talking points etc. There's basically zero investigative stuff in either, because it takes work, doesn't give a guaranteed result and the people you're investigating will push back, hard. Maybe not push back in the sense that you'll end up at the bottom of the Potomac wearing concrete boots, but they'll certainly make your life as difficult as they can. A gaming journalist who cannot interview or get information from games companies is near useless, similar a political reporter who politicians and political entities refuse to talk to.

 

A more relevant case in point is the Ukrainian 'parliament' decision to remove Russian- spoken by the 50% of Ukraine it doesn't represent- as an accepted language. There's been effectively no coverage of that, or of suggestions that the two democratically elected government parties (also representing the other 50%) be banned. Take for example this from the Beeb, no mention in the article of why separatism is now popular, or suggestion that it might be reasonable. Indeed the only mentions of such things come occasionally from people they interview, and from channels like RT. It's obvious that the BBC knows about it, and any balanced coverage might suggest that, perhaps, maybe, the actions of the new 'government' may have a slight influence on the attitudes of the other 50%.

[213374U]

Then he tries to dismiss the data complied on print, broadcast, and internet freedom(free Press index) and analysed by experts, by making assertion about its validity and attributing it to some questioner about an unrelated index about journalists. (plus some BS about Israel and turkey, and amusing himself)

 

"Some questioner[sic]" is actually the survey tool used by RWB to gather the data they later collate into the Press Freedom Index. You would have figured this out this if you a) actually read the Wikipedia articles you regurgitate, b) read the posts other people make to graciously explain why the stupid **** you post is baseless/irrelevant/outright wrong and c) put some thought into the discussion instead of saving all your available brainpower to make prepubescent jokes about other posters' aliases.

 

But keep quoting me and talking about me. It's clear that you care. 

Edited February 25, 2014 by 213374U

[Zoraptor]

Actually, from that Beeb article, comes some unsurprising news.

 

Ukraine's interim President Olexander Turchynov has warned of the dangers of separatism following the ousting of President Viktor Yanukovych.

His comments came amid continuing opposition in Ukraine's Russian-speaking regions to the new administration in Kiev.

 

Ah, an excellent opportunity to put "following the parliament's decision to repeal Russian language laws in favour of the Ukrainian language", or "following the ouster of the democratically elected President largely supported in the east", you know, some sort of reason for this movement, I'm sure they'll take it...

 

The formation of a unity government has been delayed until Thursday.

 

Oh, they didn't. Still, unity government coming Real Soon Now, no doubt following implementation of more restrictive laws on people they don't like and won't vote for them, and including select Uncle Toms to give a veneer of legitimacy.

 

Hmm, actually not reporting that isn't really surprising, is it. Can't make it look like their grievances might have some basis, can we, or that the old set of protesters and the new 'government' ain't doing legitimate stuff?

 

Anyway, actual unsurprising news below...

 

Addressing parliament, Mr Turchynov said he would meet law enforcement agencies to discuss the risk of separatism in regions with large ethnic Russian populations. Separatism was a "serious threat", he said.

 

 

Ah, yes, those law enforcement agencies. Thank goodness he's making plans to send the Berkut (no doubt those nice western units though) into SE Ukraine to break up their protests. Still, at least there'll no doubt be more tolerance from the nice western Ukrainians. No doubt

 

Anyone held responsible for separatist moves should be punished, his press service quoted Mr Turchynov as saying in a later statement, Reuters news agency reports.

 

Oh, seems not. Just a nice, unthreatening comment about 'punishing' people who disagree with the new regime. I'm sure that will get some comment though... oh.

 

Parliament has now voted in favour of trying Mr Yanukovych at the International Criminal Court (ICC).

 

Ah, that would be the parliament whose security is currently provided by Right Sector Svoboda militias, yes, with an artificial quorum/ the remaining government members voting under duress? Well, I'm sure you'll mention... no, not a word? 

 

Utterly asterisking useless, designed with a veneer of balance but sfa actual balance.

 

(Of course I don't expect them to post half the stuff I do, in the way I do. I'm not a journalist, I can present the info any way I want with any slant I want, and my info is presented in this case to make the Beeb look stupid. But really, how on earth can you claim you're informing people when you- and it can only be deliberate- don't give any context to the complaints in the SE beyond a one line "Yanukovich had support in Kharkov".)

[Mor]

A more relevant case in point is the Ukrainian 'parliament' decision to remove Russian- spoken by the 50% of Ukraine it doesn't represent- as an accepted language. There's been effectively no coverage of that, or of suggestions that the two democratically elected government parties (also representing the other 50%) be banned. Take for example this from the Beeb, no mention in the article of why separatism is now popular, or suggestion that it might be reasonable. Indeed the only mentions of such things come occasionally from people they interview, and from channels like RT. It's obvious that the BBC knows about it, and any balanced coverage might suggest that, perhaps, maybe, the actions of the new 'government' may have a slight influence on the attitudes of the other 50%.

As I understand that decision was to revert a recent regional year old law by the deposed president, that allowed second language status to minorities that constitute more 10% of regions population. I understand that in yout opinion the BBC coverage is unbalanced, IMO this is just really not that important right now and or our business. while what is important is that:

 

"This is not a zero-sum game, it is not West versus East, it should not be, it is not Russia or the United States or other choices. This is about the people of Ukraine and Ukrainians making a choice about their future. We want to work with Russia, with other countries, with everybody available to make sure this is a peaceful from this day forward."(BBC)

 

Basically Ukraine is in crisis, it needs to form a unity government, go to election and find away that everyone can work together(including external powers). Then if they want that minor law they can put to a standard vote.... jeesh

 

I suppose that if you are watching Russian news, which has about double the "air" time on this than the BBC, then the BBC coverage might seem unbalanced to you... Keep in mind that it was mentioned in couple of hours later article when Russia pulled its ambassador(which is important for a peaceful and speedy resolution of this)... so before you cry bias, maybe you should consider all povs...

 

Also I ignored the previous 3 paragraphs, because I am not certain what was your point other than trying to set the tone for this ( especially since changing west to east in each, well net you the same result )

 

 

Well, he could actually be trying to argue with you rather than trolling you.

It's not the first time.. and if I wanted to such arguments, i'd go somewhere were there is a religious sub-forum.

 

Also I hope that Tagaziel return to offer some more insights on the topic.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

As I understand that decision was to revert a recent regional year old law by the deposed president, that allowed second language status to minorities that constitute more 10% of regions population. I understand that in yout opinion the BBC coverage is unbalanced, IMO this is just really not that important right now and or our business. while what is important is that:

 

"This is not a zero-sum game, it is not West versus East, it should not be, it is not Russia or the United States or other choices. This is about the people of Ukraine and Ukrainians making a choice about their future. We want to work with Russia, with other countries, with everybody available to make sure this is a peaceful from this day forward."(BBC)

 

Basically Ukraine is in crisis, it needs to form a unity government, go to election and find away that everyone can work together(including external powers). Then if they want that minor law they can put to a standard vote.... jeesh

It most certainly is the people who speak Russian's business though, isn't it? And that's the point, not whether I personally care about it but whether they do, and whether the repeal of the law gives them legitimate grounds to be either upset or afraid of what else may come forth from the parliament. That is what the BBC should represent, if they were doing their jobs properly, because the why gives the context. If you don't provide the why then you are implying that there aren't any reasons- and they provide the context for the pro west protests every single time they're mentioned. Every. Single. Time. Repression of a people's language is usually taken as reasonable grounds for dissent, after all. And if you're really trying to do some sort of national unity thing instead of crude indulgent triumphalism then doing something that deliberately antagonises the people you're supposed to be uniting with is at very best counter productive. Funnily enough when it's joining Europe it's horribly, horribly undemocratic for that decision to be made- by the democratically elected President, on the basis of his winning an election- but when it's the other 50% making decisions- without a President and with a much reduced parliament- on things that effect the other lot then that is fine and dandy and won't even warrant a mention.

 

My personal view? Maori is spoken by less than 10% of our population yet has official status, let alone being spoken by about half the population. And if a language is spoken by roughly half the population then why isn't it OK as an official language? In this case it's because the other roughly half want everyone else to speak their language, Ukrainian, plain and simple, and what those others want can go hang.

 

And of course, it only became 'an issue for the Ukrainian people to decide' in US minds once the pro western people were in power, not before. The EU agreement wasn't such a matter, now was it, despite that effecting the Ukrainian people, that got a heap of outside interference from the west.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I see no evidence US press is intimidated (except in Chicago), it's just incredibly ignorant and biased.

Kirsten Powers - Even if CO2 does not cause global warming, it's still a pollutant that harms people's health
Bill O'Reilly -  [something irrelevant as usual]

[BruceVC]

 

The line would be where the subject brings to light illegal (or even simply immoral) activities, government or corporate. If a person is aware that a crime is being committed and doesn't report it, he can be charged as accessory. The government doesn't (shouldn't) get exemption on that just because they claim to be doing it "for the common good", "for the people" or "for reasons".

 

And yes, I feel everyone should know what their government is doing. Reason #1 is because they are doing it with my taxes' money. I don't get to choose whether I pay taxes or not. Reason #2 is that I'm a distrustful and cynical **** and cannot think of a single use of secrecy that cannot (and therefore will not) be abused and subverted. Doesn't mean everyone needs to know everything immediately though. But secrecy destroys accountability. And there can be no true democracy without accountability.

Im inclined to agree with your first paragraph but disagree with your second. Imo, paying my taxes doesn't buy me the right to classified weapons system / intelligence gathering / etc... I feel those type programs must stay secret or basically lose all effectiveness.

 

Thanks for the answer.

 

 

Gfted1 where are you going?? Please don't leave, stay and participate in this deep conversation

 

 

I'll be completely honest, Snowden is a traitor. There is no other way to describe him. I know people like Zora think he is some kind of modern day  "Robin Hood ", stealing information from the powerful to disseminate to the rest of the world. There is absolutely no country in the world that would accept his behaviour and consider him a whistle-blower. It also appears that the Russians were far more involved in orchestrating this whole debacle than it first appeared.

 

I'm not sure who I dislike more, Snowden or Julian Assange?

[obyknven]

Some info about situation in Ukraine.

 

1.The Putsch happened. Government non-legitimate, they break numerous Ukrainian laws

2. Real power belongs to extremists (nazi, ultras, criminals).
3. Some regions begin riots against Euromaidan and non-legitimate Government.
4. Police and  army completely destroyed.
5. Chaos everywhere.

 

It's looks as good time for small invasion really. Ukraine just dont have forces for protect yourself, these rioting beggars can't stop us. Such weakness is best invite.

Meanwhile in Crimea... Yeah, Masters are returned.

 

http://youtu.be/TRFwMKYyDr0

 

http://youtu.be/ecJQSk6E5wM

 

[213374U]

Western-style nation-building proceeding at full speed:

 

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/thirteen-more-party-of-regions-members-leave-parliamentary-faction-337356.html

 

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yefremov-complains-to-ashton-his-faction-mps-working-at-gunpoint-337587.html

 

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140224/187857643/Ukraine-Parliament-Sacks-Constitutional-Court-Judges.html

 

Yay "democracy".

 

And because we have such short memories:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 

 

Also, it appears the new cabinet has issued a decree disbanding the Berkut riot police—a demand put forth by Svoboda. I wonder who's going to stand up to the Right Sector nazi militias now? The recently-appointed-by-Russian-mobs mayor of Sevastopol has already declared himself in defiance of this and will apparently continue to finance Berkut regardless, even though Berkut units are outside of the normal police hierarchy and answer to the senior Interior Ministry official for the region. Interesting that these are the same police units that were deployed from Eastern Ukraine to crack down on protesters as Yanukovych wasn't too sure about the loyalties of western-based Berkut units, and the same that were cheered on by the people at Donetsk upon their return.

 

All in all, it's increasingly looking like a major strategic defeat for Russia. Nice timing, too.

 

 

 

 

Well, he could actually be trying to argue with you rather than trolling you.

It's not the first time.. and if I wanted to such arguments, i'd go somewhere were there is a religious sub-forum.

 

Aww, poor boy. He so butthurt. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. You don't get to choose the arguments other people make.

Edited February 26, 2014 by 213374U

[obyknven]

Russia begin military exercises near Ukrainian border. It's begin.

http://top.rbc.ru/politics/26/02/2014/907362.shtml

[Sarex]

Russia begin military exercises near Ukrainian border. It's begin.

http://top.rbc.ru/politics/26/02/2014/907362.shtml

 

Wait for the East Ukrainians to start protesting, that is when it begins.

[TrashMan]

FYI, that some news outlets are ctiticizing the president means little.

 

The president is not the real power-structure in the US anyway.

[BruceVC]

FYI, that some news outlets are ctiticizing the president means little.

 

The president is not the real power-structure in the US anyway.

 

Do tell, who is the real power-structure in the US?

[213374U]

I see no evidence US press is intimidated (except in Chicago), it's just incredibly ignorant and biased.

 

It's not even "US press", as it's not homogeneous—just the big names that enjoy a reputation earned in times past and consequently get the most following and exposure. There is quite a bit of independent critical stuff, but for lack of means and what Zoraptor explained, the effectiveness of their efforts is limited.

 

 

 

 

FYI, that some news outlets are ctiticizing the president means little.

 

The president is not the real power-structure in the US anyway.

 

Do tell, who is the real power-structure in the US?

 

 

http://billmoyers.com/episode/the-deep-state-hiding-in-plain-sight/

 

Enjoy.

[Malcador]

 

FYI, that some news outlets are ctiticizing the president means little.

 

The president is not the real power-structure in the US anyway.

 

Do tell, who is the real power-structure in the US?

 

The Zionist cabal.  

 

Well or Congress and the MIC.

[obyknven]

Meanwhile Chechens want go to Ukraine and protect property and lives of own clan members. They want protect Russians in Crimea also.

http://youtu.be/KA47nZNmcUI

 

They have quite cool own army (around 50 000 perfect trained warriors), and they can pacify entire Ukraine even without our help.

http://youtu.be/QxHomwMcT4c

 

Also Gazprom plan use own private army for protect pipelines and property in Ukraine.

[Gorgon]

More killing, sounds like a splendid idea 

[HoonDing]

 

 

They want protect Russians in Crimea also.

lulz

[Mor]

The Zionist cabal.

Yeah.. well Grasshopper you might learn something from those ants. Actually one of their idioms just came to mind about the "robbed Cossack" i.e. the abuser who plays the abusee or the Offender who acts as the victim. It perfectly fit all the cries from before about Western propaganda by Russian trolls such oby with this post being the cheery on top

 

 

 

Some info about situation in Ukraine. 

 

1.The Putsch happened. Government non-legitimate, they break numerous Ukrainian laws

2. Real power belongs to extremists (nazi, ultras, criminals).

3. Some regions begin riots against Euromaidan and non-legitimate Government.

4. Police and  army completely destroyed.

5. Chaos everywhere. 

 

It's looks as good time for small invasion really. Ukraine just dont have forces for protect yourself, these rioting beggars can't stop us. Such weakness is best invite.Meanwhile in Crimea... Yeah, Masters are returned.

 

 

More killing, sounds like a splendid idea 

Yeah the vultures are out... Edited February 26, 2014 by Mor

[obyknven]

 

They want protect Russians in Crimea also.

lulz

 

 What wrong?

[obyknven]

 

Yeah.. well Grasshopper you might learn something from those ants. Actually one of their idioms just came to mind about the "robbed Cossack" i.e. the abuser who plays the abusee or the Offender who acts as the victim. It perfectly fit all the cries from before about Western propaganda by Russian trolls such oby with this post being the cheery on top

 

We just copypaste behaviour of Western people. Who keeps company with the wolf, will learn to howl.