Ukraine burns

[Tagaziel]

I hardly think any Russian can cry about Polish aggression...

oby cries himself to sleep every night reading this article.

 

Merkel apparently said that Putin is out of touch with reality. Maybe he has brain damage and that's why he's behaving like a retard.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Tagaziel

[obyknven]

Moar butthurt for god of butthurt.

Actually in Russia everyone celebrate Crimean crisis. Putin do everything right, he is just genius. Other world leaders looks so pathetic.

[obyknven]

 

I hardly think any Russian can cry about Polish aggression...

oby cries himself to sleep every night reading this article.

 

Merkel apparently said that Putin is out of touch with reality. Maybe he has brain damage and that's why he's behaving like a retard.

 

NATO = No Actions Talk Only. When weak one's can only barking.  In case of West such whining make  us optimistic - i'ts means we do everything right.

 

Also 1999 year, NATO invade Serbia. 35 000 airstrikes, 2000 killed, 10000 wounded, part of Serbia are separated.

http://youtu.be/Cn3yWfLupv8

 

Can we say now?

 

Clinton is out of touch with reality. Maybe he has brain damage and that's why he's behaving like a retard.

 

West yet not understand, but Putin just send all Western politicans GTFO. He decide, while they can only produce useless words..

 

P.S. Poland? Where it this? Do you mean Vistula Land?

[Sarex]

-snip-

 

Exactly what the Americans did to the Native American population, but I don't see how that relates to this thread.

[213374U]

 

I don't think New Mexico wants to be part of Mexico, but if they wanted to, there would be no reason to stop them. Do you know what ruling over foreign peoples against their will is called? Imperialism. And it's not a good thing.

Fighting secessionists is imperialism ?

 

 

Oh, come on. You know there is no single answer to that and that it's a matter of historical perspective—and history is written by the winners. Were the British being imperialists by fighting the armies raised by the Continental Congress? Were the French being imperialists by fighting the Algerians? etc.

 

 

 

Watch this space for the announcement that Merkel and Putin has decided to split Ukraine in "spheres of interest"

 

The secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia. — Otto von Bismarck

 

Won't be surprised to find that she's a fan.

[Chilloutman]

 

-snip-

 

Exactly what the Americans did to the Native American population, but I don't see how that relates to this thread.

 

Put in Russia instead of Germany and it will then make you sense, its funny that there were Olympic games that year in Germany as well - however Its hard to find you relation to colonisation of America, note that I dont approve what they did there

[Sarex]

Put in Russia instead of Germany and it will then make you sense, its funny that there were Olympic games that year in Germany as well - however Its hard to find you relation to colonisation of America, note that I dont approve what they did there

 

It makes as much sense to put America there as it does Russia. Right now Russia has only prepared Crimea against any aggression, like that in Kiev and I seriously doubt they will want to make it part of the Russian federation. What will happen is that it will most likely declare independence.

 

You comparing Russia with the Nazis is just cheap propaganda and doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

[Elerond]

If Crimea declares itself independent it is pretty much same as if it joins in Russia, because Crimea don't have economical or military power to keep itself independent and by separating from Ukraine, Russia will be only country that can offer economical and military aid for it as Russia will block any help from other countries as controlling black sea is too important thing for Russia to lose. And to ensure their control in black sea Russia will make sure that its naval bases in Crimea will not be touched and they probably will add some civilian ports in their control zone and remove any traveling restrictions and tolls considering Russian citizens.

 

And Russian military will probably take permanent residency in Crimea to protect it against all foreign aggressions. So I don't see that Crimea has any real option for independence. And for Ukraine it could be very costly in its current state let Crimea declare itself independent as people of Ukraine are currently divined and Crimea's separation would throw more gas in those problems and could easily lead in civil war.

[Malcador]

Oh, come on. You know there is no single answer to that and that it's a matter of historical perspective—and history is written by the winners. Were the British being imperialists by fighting the armies raised by the Continental Congress? Were the French being imperialists by fighting the Algerians? etc.

True enough, I just always associate imperialism with stepping out of your borders to add to your state rather than just preventing some of your own from leaving (granted, what's defined as your own is dependent on the history and time they've spent as part of your whole).

[Volourn]

"Exactly what the Americans did to the Native American population, but I don't see how that relates to this thread."

 

Nope. That was the British.

[Chilloutman]

 

Put in Russia instead of Germany and it will then make you sense, its funny that there were Olympic games that year in Germany as well - however Its hard to find you relation to colonisation of America, note that I dont approve what they did there

 

It makes as much sense to put America there as it does Russia. Right now Russia has only prepared Crimea against any aggression, like that in Kiev and I seriously doubt they will want to make it part of the Russian federation. What will happen is that it will most likely declare independence.

 

You comparing Russia with the Nazis is just cheap propaganda and doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

 

Its not cheap, its exactly what is happening, Russia invaded Ukraine becaus 'Russans living there might be oppresed' wouldnt be easier to just invite them back to Russia and helping them there instead of invading other country? People there are just excuse how to lock down access to black sea and their military power in region

[Tagaziel]

Nope. That was the British.

Totally.

[obyknven]

It's become Circus now.

http://youtu.be/t8X956vsgvM

 

During 20 years of democratic reforms Ukrainians completely destroy own army. Nobody can protect Ukraine, they want diplomatic solution with Russia now. I hope they join to TC peacefully.

[Sarex]

Nope. That was the British.

 

Damn dude, you are uneducated.

 

Its not cheap, its exactly what is happening, Russia invaded Ukraine becaus 'Russans living there might be oppresed' wouldnt be easier to just invite them back to Russia and helping them there instead of invading other country? People there are just excuse how to lock down access to black sea and their military power in region

 

Ah, so we should get those pesky Russians, who have been living there their whole lives, out of their homes and in to Russia (careful now Chilloutman your true colors are showing). I guess we should do that for anyone in Ukraine who isn't pro west. It wasn't east Ukraine or the Russians who started all this ****.

[Chilloutman]

 

Nope. That was the British.

 

Damn dude, you are uneducated.

 

Its not cheap, its exactly what is happening, Russia invaded Ukraine becaus 'Russans living there might be oppresed' wouldnt be easier to just invite them back to Russia and helping them there instead of invading other country? People there are just excuse how to lock down access to black sea and their military power in region

 

Ah, so we should get those pesky Russians, who have been living there their whole lives, out of their homes and in to Russia (careful now Chilloutman your true colors are showing). I guess we should do that for anyone in Ukraine who isn't pro west. It wasn't east Ukraine or the Russians who started all this ****.

 

You should do your research about why there is so many Russians and so little natives, then you would understand. Hint - Stalin, I am sure you can search on that

[Sarex]

You should do your research about why there is so many Russians and so little natives, then you would understand. Hint - Stalin, I am sure you can search on that

 

So Crimeas history starts with Stalin? Also that doesn't excuse the ethnic cleansing you are proposing.

[Chilloutman]

 

You should do your research about why there is so many Russians and so little natives, then you would understand. Hint - Stalin, I am sure you can search on that

 

So Crimeas history starts with Stalin? Also that doesn't excuse the ethnic cleansing you are proposing.

 

 

I just loled, deportation to home country is something different then ethnic cleansing, in fact, thats reason why there is more Russians then natives. Well I have to say it sound similiar, because Stalin deported them as well, problem is that their destination was concentration camps :/ What did they teach you at schools these days....

 

During the 1930s, categorisation of so-called enemies of the people shifted from the usual Marxist-Leninist, class-based terms, such as kulak, to ethnic-based ones.[8] The partial removal of potentially trouble-making ethnic groups was a technique used consistently by Joseph Stalin during his career;[9] between 1935 and 1938 alone, at least nine different nationalities were deported.[10] Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union led to a massive escalation in Soviet ethnic cleansing.[11]

Looking at the entire period of Stalin's rule, one can list: Poles (1939–1941 and 1944–1945), Romanians (1941 and 1944–1953), Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians (1941 and 1945–1949), Volga Germans (1941–1945), Ingrian Finns (1929–1931 and 1935–1939), Finnish people in Karelia (1940–1941, 1944), Crimean Tatars, Crimean Greeks(1944) and Caucasus Greeks (1949-50),[12] Kalmyks, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Karapapaks, Far East Koreans (1937), Chechens and Ingushs (1944). Shortly before, during and immediately after World War II, Stalin conducted a series of deportations on a huge scale which profoundly affected the ethnic map of the Soviet Union.[2] It is estimated that between 1941 and 1949 nearly 3.3 million were deported to Siberia and the Central Asian republics.[13] By some estimates up to 43% of the resettled population died of diseases and malnutrition.[14]

Edited March 3, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Sarex]

I just loled, deportation to home country is something different then ethnic cleansing, in fact, thats reason why there is more Russians then natives. Well I have to say it sound similiar, because Stalin deported them as well, problem is that their destination was concentration camps :/ What did they teach you at schools these days....

 

During the 1930s, categorisation of so-called enemies of the people shifted from the usual Marxist-Leninist, class-based terms, such as kulak, to ethnic-based ones.[8] The partial removal of potentially trouble-making ethnic groups was a technique used consistently by Joseph Stalin during his career;[9] between 1935 and 1938 alone, at least nine different nationalities were deported.[10] Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union led to a massive escalation in Soviet ethnic cleansing.[11]

Looking at the entire period of Stalin's rule, one can list: Poles (1939–1941 and 1944–1945), Romanians (1941 and 1944–1953), Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians (1941 and 1945–1949), Volga Germans (1941–1945), Ingrian Finns (1929–1931 and 1935–1939), Finnish people in Karelia (1940–1941, 1944), Crimean Tatars, Crimean Greeks(1944) and Caucasus Greeks (1949-50),[12] Kalmyks, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Karapapaks, Far East Koreans (1937), Chechens and Ingushs (1944). Shortly before, during and immediately after World War II, Stalin conducted a series of deportations on a huge scale which profoundly affected the ethnic map of the Soviet Union.[2] It is estimated that between 1941 and 1949 nearly 3.3 million were deported to Siberia and the Central Asian republics.[13] By some estimates up to 43% of the resettled population died of diseases and malnutrition.[14]

 

Am I writing in Chinese or what. I know what Stalin did, but how does that make what you are suggesting right? You obviously don't know what ethnic cleansing is, here educate your self (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing). It doesn't matter that you are banishing them to Russia, the fact is you are moving people from their homes and property because of their ethnicity. Those people are not there on a vacation, they live there.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Sarex

[Chilloutman]

Ehm no, I would not suggest to move them because ethnicity, but because they invited occupation army into sovereign country. eg - traitors. IF pro-west part of populatin win elections, then there will be ethnical cleansing - I dont approve it, but what can you expect if you invite army to take away their country, not to mention how many declaration Russia now breaking (even nuclear pack, in which Ukraine get rid of nuclear arsenal in favor for promise that Russia will not even set foot into Ukraine)

 

There is strong chinese ethnicity in russia, how would you feel if they call Chinese army to take over part of russia for them? You would run over them with tanks - Russia style

 

Example of 'bad' and 'good' deportation (expulsion) (note i dont say its good to expulsion someone, but its better for that people to leave then have to end up in hands of people who they oppresed)

 

Soviet deportations

 

The Soviet Union used deportation of populations, as well as instituting the Russian language as the only working language and other such tactics, to achieve Russification of its occupied territories (such as the Baltic nations and Bessarabia). In this way, it removed the historical ethnic populations and repopulated the areas with Russian nationals. The deported people were sent to remote, scarcely populated areas or to GULAG labour camps. It has been estimated that, in their entirety, internal forced migrations affected some 6 million people.[22][23] Of these, some 1 to 1.5 million perished.[24][25]

 

and

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

Edited March 3, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Rostere]

 

Watch this space for the announcement that Merkel and Putin has decided to split Ukraine in "spheres of interest"

So far it nothing, they agreed to talk.. i.e. this the usual jerk off smile and shakes to the camera announcing procedural triumph as progress

 

Do you know what ruling over foreign peoples against their will is called? Imperialism. And it's not a good thing.

Yeah those cheeky Russian bastards in the Caucasus playing Imperialist! actually everyone are .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

 

 

Actually I am critical of Russian imperialism, but what I was criticizing right now was Ukrainian imperialism. If Crimea wants to be independent, Ukraine should not stop them since they have no sensible claim on that territory.

 

But this is fundamentally a question of how many people support secession, and on what grounds. I think there are several parts of Europe which have some reasonable claim for independence: Basque Country, Catalonia, Scotland, Wales, North Ireland might reasonably be governed by Ireland and I'm sure there are several places I forget. Anyway, it all boils down to holding a referendum on independence. Ultimately, this decision should be made by the people. And it looks like Scotland will hold a referendum soon, with a likely "no" to independence - which is well and good in my mind since I think people are better off in general staying together (as long as - crucially - there is support in the public opinion for that). Additionally, from my personal point of view Sweden needs a strong British voice in the EU because of our similar views on economic policies.

 

 

I don't think New Mexico wants to be part of Mexico, but if they wanted to, there would be no reason to stop them. Do you know what ruling over foreign peoples against their will is called? Imperialism. And it's not a good thing.

Fighting secessionists is imperialism ?

 

 

Ask Gandhi, I guess?

[Malcador]

Not sure that's akin to New Mexico now, but decent enough shot, heh.

[Rostere]

 

 

_{Yes. let's just split every country up along ethnic lines, I'm sure that won't cause any problems. Most of New Mexico is of Mexican descent, I guess we should either give it back to Mexico or make them independent. Btw, that was hitler's reasoning, any area that was predominantly (or more or less) German should be part of Germany.}

 

Yes, and it was also the reasoning of Garibaldi, Bismarck, Michael Collins, and every national hero there ever was. Just because Hitler said something doesn't mean it was wrong. Hitler was also a vegetarian. Do you use that as an (so-called I guess) argument against vegetarianism?

 

I don't think New Mexico wants to be part of Mexico, but if they wanted to, there would be no reason to stop them. Do you know what ruling over foreign peoples against their will is called? Imperialism. And it's not a good thing.

 

EDIT: Oh, I found a page for you: http://www.vegetariansareevil.com/hitler.html

 

 

 

 

Er... what he ate may be unrelated to his politics. But I think it's safe to say that how he wanted States to be defined was, you know, somehow a bit political.

 

 

It was just a case of pointing out that an individual may be wrong on one issue and right on another. That German territories should be ruled over by Germans makes as much sense as American territories should be rules over by Americans, et cetera (if you don't agree to this general principle, maybe you should cede the Falkland Islands to Argentina?). That was not the part of his ideology which caused trouble. Just because Hitler was an awful person in general does not mean that he was wrong on every point. That is a logical fallacy.

 

If Crimea declares itself independent it is pretty much same as if it joins in Russia, because Crimea don't have economical or military power to keep itself independent and by separating from Ukraine, Russia will be only country that can offer economical and military aid for it as Russia will block any help from other countries as controlling black sea is too important thing for Russia to lose. And to ensure their control in black sea Russia will make sure that its naval bases in Crimea will not be touched and they probably will add some civilian ports in their control zone and remove any traveling restrictions and tolls considering Russian citizens.

 

And Russian military will probably take permanent residency in Crimea to protect it against all foreign aggressions. So I don't see that Crimea has any real option for independence. And for Ukraine it could be very costly in its current state let Crimea declare itself independent as people of Ukraine are currently divined and Crimea's separation would throw more gas in those problems and could easily lead in civil war.

 

Derp, no. By supporting Crimean independence, Russia is betting that Crimea will side with them instead of the EU. They have already lost Ukraine or otherwise they wouldn't be doing this, which will upset Ukraine to the point where no immediate reconciliation is possible.

 

If Russia subjects Crimea to a military regime against their will, then that would be awful - but not them allowing the Crimeans a chance at independence. These are two different things.

 

It is very unrealistic and disrespectful to say that Crimea cannot be a viable independent country. A counter-example would be the Baltic countries - both Estonia and Latvia have a far lower population than Crimea, but they are still viable independent countries. Or would you argue that "Russia will be only country that can offer economical and military aid for Latvia/Estonia, as Russia will block any help from other countries"?

 

 

 

Put in Russia instead of Germany and it will then make you sense, its funny that there were Olympic games that year in Germany as well - however Its hard to find you relation to colonisation of America, note that I dont approve what they did there

 

It makes as much sense to put America there as it does Russia. Right now Russia has only prepared Crimea against any aggression, like that in Kiev and I seriously doubt they will want to make it part of the Russian federation. What will happen is that it will most likely declare independence.

 

You comparing Russia with the Nazis is just cheap propaganda and doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

 

Its not cheap, its exactly what is happening, Russia invaded Ukraine becaus 'Russans living there might be oppresed' wouldnt be easier to just invite them back to Russia and helping them there instead of invading other country? People there are just excuse how to lock down access to black sea and their military power in region

 

 

You can't "invite Crimean Russians back to Russia". That's a nonsensical statement. Ukrainians have never been living in Crimea in any large numbers. Crimea has never been part of Ukraine until the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev, himself a half-Ukrainian, gave it to Ukraine. Crimean Russians shouldn't go back to Russia from Ukraine because Crimea is not a natural part of Ukraine any more than Brittany belongs to the UK or Poland to Germany. The Russians certainly did not displace any Ukrainians when they moved there. The "native" population of Crimea were the Crimean Tatars, which by the way the provisional Crimean government have promised resettlement plans (the ones who were moved to Russia during the Soviet times, that is).

 

I think it's hilariously funny and ironic when people's Machiavellian plans force them into doing good. In this case, the Crimean provisional government wooing Crimean Tatars before the referendum on March 30 will in effect heal an old wound caused by Soviet-era ethnic cleansing.

[Sarex]

Ehm no, I would not suggest to move them because ethnicity, but because they invited occupation army into sovereign country. eg - traitors. IF pro-west part of populatin win elections, then there will be ethnical cleansing - I dont approve it, but what can you expect if you invite army to take away their country, not to mention how many declaration Russia now breaking (even nuclear pack, in which Ukraine get rid of nuclear arsenal in favor for promise that Russia will not even set foot into Ukraine)

 

There is strong chinese ethnicity in russia, how would you feel if they call Chinese army to take over part of russia for them? You would run over them with tanks - Russia style

 

Haha, dude there is no nice way to say this, but you are full of it. That was exactly what you were saying and now you are calling them traitors because your previous point fell flat. If the pro west part of the population wins the elections, which I am still not sure will happen(the election, not them winning), east Ukraine will do what the west did in Kiev and their allies are much closer. What will most likely happen is that Ukraine will split in half, there are too many people for any kind of ethnic cleansing to happen. What you are saying is just wishful thinking.

 

The sad thing is that after all of this is over, Ukraine will be worse off then before the "protests" happened.

[Chilloutman]

Rostere, you will have to do better research on native population of Crimean and why there is much more Russians now. And please dont call what Russians did there 'resettlement' few milions of people died in concentration camps during these 'resettlements'

[Chilloutman]

 

Ehm no, I would not suggest to move them because ethnicity, but because they invited occupation army into sovereign country. eg - traitors. IF pro-west part of populatin win elections, then there will be ethnical cleansing - I dont approve it, but what can you expect if you invite army to take away their country, not to mention how many declaration Russia now breaking (even nuclear pack, in which Ukraine get rid of nuclear arsenal in favor for promise that Russia will not even set foot into Ukraine)

 

There is strong chinese ethnicity in russia, how would you feel if they call Chinese army to take over part of russia for them? You would run over them with tanks - Russia style

 

Haha, dude there is no nice way to say this, but you are full of it. That was exactly what you were saying and now you are calling them traitors because your previous point fell flat. If the pro west part of the population wins the elections, which I am still not sure will happen(the election, not them winning), east Ukraine will do what the west did in Kiev and their allies are much closer. What will most likely happen is that Ukraine will split in half, there are too many people for any kind of ethnic cleansing to happen. What you are saying is just wishful thinking.

 

The sad thing is that after all of this is over, Ukraine will be worse off then before the "protests" happened.

 

Not sure what are you refering to 'full of it' however east of ukraine is where most of industry is, if they split up they can just kill those people now before they die from hunger and povetry. Its exatly what would Russia like, take Crimean (military base, economy, access to black sea) and put rest on shouldrs of EU and then laught that they are unnable to stabilise its economics.

 

BTW which of my point is flat?

Edited March 3, 2014 by Chilloutman