Update #71: The Heavy Hitters: Rogues and Rangers

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Can't say I'm totally impressed with this. The entire update could have been replaced with simply "We're copying WoW". Why not try to come up with something original? Or at the very least stick closer to the D&D style this game is supposed to be a call-back to. Rogues were never meant to be amazing fighters who do more than actual fighters, they were deliberately weak in a fight because the game wasn't all about fighting and they had other things to do instead. And as already mentioned by others, the whole point of ranger pets is that they do exactly what a party is supposed to do, so having them in a party-based single player game is just pointless. Even ignoring that, rangers again were supposed to have skills applicable outside of just fighting, not just be "pet to tank while I use a bow". While I wouldn't expect this game to be identical to the games of old, I at least hoped it wouldn't be identical to every other game currently on the market.

 

This is copying WoW and asking the dev's to stick closer to D&D?

 

This has 4th Edition D&D written all over it. And I'm really happy to see so much D&D stuff in it.

[Johs]

Can you apply an option for Rangers to "ditch" their animal companion in exchange for some other benefit? Even if it's ultimately less effective than the range of utility provided by the Animal, it seems strange to require that all heroes built around ranged combat (for instance, if you wanted a gun fighter) to have a pet. It would allow the player a real divergent option in how they wanted to build a ranger.

[moth]

I have a support issue in the context of this update.

 

This update says 

 

 

 

First things first: if you have backed Pillars of Eternity but not yet completed your order on our website, please do so as soon as possible.

 

But... I cannot create an account under the email address I backed kickstarter with, because my email address is already in use. But I also cannot recover my password because my email address is unknown.

 

Gotta love denormalized databases.

 

Anyways, in my pledge summary email message I was told:

 

 

 

When your reward is ready, Obsidian Entertainment will send you a survey via email to request any info needed to deliver your reward (mailing address, t-shirt size, etc).

 

So I suppose I need to be waiting for that survey or something?

 

(For what it is worth, you can find my kickstarter email address by removing the dots to the left of the @ sign in the email address on this account that I am posting from.)

 

Thanks!

[Lambor]

Sounds great, While I have always loved dirty fighting rogues, the ranger is sounding pretty cool. Add me to the list of people wanting to know which animals. I'd like a big tiger preferably. Also being able to change the colours of it would be amazing.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

First I'm glad this game has animal companions for the ranger class. I would have liked the opportunity to have some way of making the animal more of a story driven thing so one of the main objectives in the rangers arc is finding his animal companion. Partly because of what was said that the animal already seems to do what the party should already be doing, but if you plan on having many enemy's on screen at once, I could see that extra crowd control as vital. I'd like it if he had to earn the right to have a cooler pet, even a rare pet. Possibly there would be a skill that allows the Ranger to develop animal bonding the more he's around them for a chance to entrap a special pet type. Will we gain more than one pet over the course of the game? How will the pet change over the course of the game and can it use upgrades like collars? It seems wonky to me that the pet shares your health and stamina as you level up. I'm guessing the current plan is the more you level up the pets damage mitigation increases a wee bit? 

Just a question regarding battles, on average what is the current plan for how long a battle should last for a single person vs a full party?

 

Cool art, looks wonderful, but the scale seems off based upon the trees, the stairs and the well wall seems like a tiny hole with really obnoxious stairs, and arches seem only barely wide enough to fit one person through tightly. However maybe this is way zoomed out. Looks pretty though.

I'd like to know more about the chanter and priest next time. 

[eldilibra]

Such a great update. I love any and all info on mechanics, even if they're not final. I'd like to hear about the Frontline next, for comparing/contrasting with the Heavy Hitters.

[Aeorlas]

Can you apply an option for Rangers to "ditch" their animal companion in exchange for some other benefit? Even if it's ultimately less effective than the range of utility provided by the Animal, it seems strange to require that all heroes built around ranged combat (for instance, if you wanted a gun fighter) to have a pet. It would allow the player a real divergent option in how they wanted to build a ranger.

 

Seconded. I can't remember if subclasses have been confirmed or denied yet, but if they are in, a ranger further specialized in archery but with no animal companion might be an obvious choice for a subclass?

[morrow1nd]

Great update guys, would love to play with a rogue

 

So whos the heavy hitter of casters ? Does that mean heavy magical damage oriented IE games shifted to heavy pyhsical damage ? :/ 

 

Reminds me online RPG  games somehow

 

( not counting cipher because its hybrid and they cant target ground )

Edited January 29, 2014 by morrow1nd

[Greensleeve]

Lovely update. The Rogue is looking great. I could also absolutely see myself having a ranger with a nice musket in my party. I'd love that type of ranged DPS. 

 

For next class update I'd like to see the front-line. Particularly, I want to see how Barbarians hold up as strikers by comparison to the Rogue, and what damage capability the Fighter might have. Those three are after all the classes I'm most interested in. 

[StrangeCat]

Here's hoping your going to have amazing death animations.  And Gore.  Your pictures of the game look very realistic does this mean your going to have some crazy Gore going on.  Characters, Monsters get maimed, heads, fly, blood flies everywhere from Critical hits?

[morrow1nd]

Lovely update. The Rogue is looking great. I could also absolutely see myself having a ranger with a nice musket in my party. I'd love that type of ranged DPS. 

 

For next class update I'd like to see the front-line. Particularly, I want to see how Barbarians hold up as strikers by comparison to the Rogue, and what damage capability the Fighter might have. Those three are after all the classes I'm most interested in. 

 

Lovely update. The Rogue is looking great. I could also absolutely see myself having a ranger with a nice musket in my party. I'd love that type of ranged DPS. 

 

 

I'd love that type of ranged DPS. 

 

 

 

 

 

ranged DPS. 

 

 

 

 

 

quick call The Urquhart, i remember listening to his radio interview and he was talking about IE games =)

 

BTW I'd love to see how you guys doing with animations  

 

Lastly,  my vote goes to 'The Frontliners' for the next update

Edited January 29, 2014 by morrow1nd

[rjshae]

Good update, thank you. I'd like to read more about the druid and chanter classes, but any of the three pairs would do nicely.

[MasterPrudent]

I set up a poll for the next class update.

[Hoodlumman]

ETA Update: Not soon enough

[ZornWO]

Eye candies, yay ^^

Love the foliage - wonder if you tinkered with it since the last tree-heavy update, because somehow I feel they changed for the better. Especially those spruces. And that dome skeleton? It feels right, fitting, it's arcs on the right angle and such. Just the way I like it - between believable and unbelievable. Though I wouldn't mind an explanation of sorts (from a region lore or maybe some local npc) who and why cleared all the rubles from the structure interiors.

I don't trust that rogue, at all. That smirk and look he gives, like he's calculating is it worthwhile to prowl in my pockets

 

As for the combat mechanics - I'll have to play the game first. Stopped worrying about them thanks to some folks out there. They seemed varied and that's always good in my book.

 

Yeah, I too noticed the collapsed roof/rubble etc. was missing from the ground, like the ruins from last time.

 

 

 

Can't say I'm totally impressed with this. The entire update could have been replaced with simply "We're copying WoW". Why not try to come up with something original? Or at the very least stick closer to the D&D style this game is supposed to be a call-back to. Rogues were never meant to be amazing fighters who do more than actual fighters, they were deliberately weak in a fight because the game wasn't all about fighting and they had other things to do instead. And as already mentioned by others, the whole point of ranger pets is that they do exactly what a party is supposed to do, so having them in a party-based single player game is just pointless. Even ignoring that, rangers again were supposed to have skills applicable outside of just fighting, not just be "pet to tank while I use a bow". While I wouldn't expect this game to be identical to the games of old, I at least hoped it wouldn't be identical to every other game currently on the market.

 

This is copying WoW and asking the dev's to stick closer to D&D?

 

This has 4th Edition D&D written all over it. And I'm really happy to see so much D&D stuff in it.

 

 

I've never played WoW or 4E, so I can't say whether or not Kahani's concerns are well-grounded, but on many of the BG boards, 4E gets a lot of hate.  Does it play that much differently than the 2nd and 3rd editions?

[smudboy]

About 10 times better than the Torment update, though that's not saying much (hah! Considering they're using part of PoE's conversation engine.)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Awesome update, but Paladins are still better. Chanters and Priests next please.

[DCParry]

While I am not a big, personal fan of the direction they went in for the ranger, it seems a lot of people like it so that is cool. Like a few others I am curious if you can build an archer/musketeer character without an animal companion (either a some trade-off for the ranger, like say a "Wilderness Betrayer" perk where you sacrificed your companion to save your own life in the past and while you don't get the advantages of the companion you get other boni [to defense, or stamina regen or some such], or a warrior who specializes in ranged combat). 

 

But aside from my personal preferences everything is looking awesome. Can't wait for more info!

 

 

OH - As an aside, for those of us in the digital tier with the free copy of Wasteland 2, how are going to receive that? 

[Tamerlane]

 

Eye candies, yay ^^

Love the foliage - wonder if you tinkered with it since the last tree-heavy update, because somehow I feel they changed for the better. Especially those spruces. And that dome skeleton? It feels right, fitting, it's arcs on the right angle and such. Just the way I like it - between believable and unbelievable. Though I wouldn't mind an explanation of sorts (from a region lore or maybe some local npc) who and why cleared all the rubles from the structure interiors.

I don't trust that rogue, at all. That smirk and look he gives, like he's calculating is it worthwhile to prowl in my pockets

 

As for the combat mechanics - I'll have to play the game first. Stopped worrying about them thanks to some folks out there. They seemed varied and that's always good in my book.

 

Yeah, I too noticed the collapsed roof/rubble etc. was missing from the ground, like the ruins from last time.

 

 

 

Can't say I'm totally impressed with this. The entire update could have been replaced with simply "We're copying WoW". Why not try to come up with something original? Or at the very least stick closer to the D&D style this game is supposed to be a call-back to. Rogues were never meant to be amazing fighters who do more than actual fighters, they were deliberately weak in a fight because the game wasn't all about fighting and they had other things to do instead. And as already mentioned by others, the whole point of ranger pets is that they do exactly what a party is supposed to do, so having them in a party-based single player game is just pointless. Even ignoring that, rangers again were supposed to have skills applicable outside of just fighting, not just be "pet to tank while I use a bow". While I wouldn't expect this game to be identical to the games of old, I at least hoped it wouldn't be identical to every other game currently on the market.

 

This is copying WoW and asking the dev's to stick closer to D&D?

 

This has 4th Edition D&D written all over it. And I'm really happy to see so much D&D stuff in it.

 

 

I've never played WoW or 4E, so I can't say whether or not Kahani's concerns are well-grounded, but on many of the BG boards, 4E gets a lot of hate.  Does it play that much differently than the 2nd and 3rd editions?

 

It's considerably different, yes, and a lot of people got their start on 3.X, so (while there are many legitimate flaws in 4e), a lot of it comes down to "it's different, now it's terrible". Same thing happened in the switch from second to third, which Gygax and a great legion of grogs held/hold in rather low regard.

 

 

What parts PoE is taking from 4e - unified defence mechanics, a focus on class combat roles, etc. - are the right parts.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Tamerlane

[Greensleeve]

 

Eye candies, yay ^^

Love the foliage - wonder if you tinkered with it since the last tree-heavy update, because somehow I feel they changed for the better. Especially those spruces. And that dome skeleton? It feels right, fitting, it's arcs on the right angle and such. Just the way I like it - between believable and unbelievable. Though I wouldn't mind an explanation of sorts (from a region lore or maybe some local npc) who and why cleared all the rubles from the structure interiors.

I don't trust that rogue, at all. That smirk and look he gives, like he's calculating is it worthwhile to prowl in my pockets

 

As for the combat mechanics - I'll have to play the game first. Stopped worrying about them thanks to some folks out there. They seemed varied and that's always good in my book.

 

Yeah, I too noticed the collapsed roof/rubble etc. was missing from the ground, like the ruins from last time.

 

 

 

Can't say I'm totally impressed with this. The entire update could have been replaced with simply "We're copying WoW". Why not try to come up with something original? Or at the very least stick closer to the D&D style this game is supposed to be a call-back to. Rogues were never meant to be amazing fighters who do more than actual fighters, they were deliberately weak in a fight because the game wasn't all about fighting and they had other things to do instead. And as already mentioned by others, the whole point of ranger pets is that they do exactly what a party is supposed to do, so having them in a party-based single player game is just pointless. Even ignoring that, rangers again were supposed to have skills applicable outside of just fighting, not just be "pet to tank while I use a bow". While I wouldn't expect this game to be identical to the games of old, I at least hoped it wouldn't be identical to every other game currently on the market.

 

This is copying WoW and asking the dev's to stick closer to D&D?

 

This has 4th Edition D&D written all over it. And I'm really happy to see so much D&D stuff in it.

 

 

I've never played WoW or 4E, so I can't say whether or not Kahani's concerns are well-grounded, but on many of the BG boards, 4E gets a lot of hate.  Does it play that much differently than the 2nd and 3rd editions?

 

 

It does play quite differently. For one, tactical combat is actually good in it. The main limitation is that there are few rules designed and explicitly there just to endorse role-playing. Many of the mechanics are focussed on combat, and it does do combat incredibly well (if not necessarily with great speed). So comparing the combat mechanics of PoE with 4E should very much be taken as a good thing. 

[ManifestedISO]

My paladin will require the aid of a Rottweiler-esque companion much more than some silly, nerf-herding ranger. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I've never played WoW or 4E, so I can't say whether or not Kahani's concerns are well-grounded, but on many of the BG boards, 4E gets a lot of hate.  Does it play that much differently than the 2nd and 3rd editions?

 

 

I feel 4E is more like 2E and not really like 3E with classes. It's either single class or multi-class like in 2E but doesn't have Dual-class. So it's very similar to the IE games (without dual-class). In 4E, you can't have something like a Barbarian/Paladin/Wizard/Rogue/Cleric/Druid Halfling. But you can have any race for any class in 4E which 2E didn't allow. eg. Must have Human Paladin in 2E whereas 4E allows any race to be a paladin. Multi-class in 4E is similar to 2E with only two classes. eg.Fighter/Mage.

 

It also concentrates on combat on tiles similar to chess. There's no abstract, like I shoot an arrow. Roll and hits. So the DM needs to have rooms/areas planned out. A lot of the time the DM can use a blank tile sheet and draw the area. Certain classes can only move so many squares, some classes can do things that other classes can't, similar to chess pieces. So it's quite tactical in that regard. A rogue needs to flank an enemy (be on the opposite side of the enemy) to a party member to use their sneak attack and you see that in operation. You also have to take into account what you're party members are doing and what squares they're on. A lot of people don't like the combat style but I think it's great. I'm a visual person, so I like to see the areas set out.

 

I know I'm in the minority and prefer both 2E and 4E and wasn't a fan of 3E, whereas it seems the majority favour 3E over the other editions. For example in IWD2, one of the reasons my dislike for 3E is the ability to have a Rogue at level 1 at the start of the game, and still be able to open every lock, search and disarm every trap in the game and when you finish, you're still a Rogue at Level 1. I had a Drow Rogue(1)/Conjurer(14) by the end. It doesn't make sense to me but for others, it makes perfect sense. Because you could level up the skills and not level up the Rogue character. A bit like dual classing Imoen as a Thief (6)/ Mage(24) and increase her thieving skills with her Mage skills every time you level up your Mage levels without actually levelling up her Thief level. That's 3E. shrugs.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Silent Winter]

Well, other than being initially disturbed by the repainting of the Sagani portrait

I have to say that I love this update.

It's great to get some info on the classes (and Rangers and Rogues are 2 of my faves     )

Sounds like Rangers and Rogues could compliment each other too - Rangers causing some status effects that Rogues can take advantage of (Hobbled, Flanked, etc)

 

I'd like to hear more about Druids next

[Krusnik]

Why not have an update talking about the Monk and Paladin?

[buzbey]

Firstly I am sorry for my didactic tone;but i don't know any other way to say my thoughts...i am sure that you have the knowledge the problems that i am going to show and you should have the experience how to prevent them. But i fear that you may forget some of the point that i am going to mention. Just in case

 

With "enough Awareness" everyone should be able counter  ranger and rogue. Make every classes to have a counter chance to their "heavy hitting chance" which levels up with awareness skill. If you don't give that kind of balancing; then they can become really popular...

Do you know the Warlords Battlecry 3? That game has that problem. In that game after i make make archmage hero level 360; i saw that i can't kill melee class heroes even with an entire army of 250. They are becoming godlikely and only melee heroes could kill eachother after certain levels; because other classes are totally debuffed. 

So just don't forget to make "counters" for every skill and power for every class. As long as you do this and it won't be a problem even if you don't add a level cap. And i really hope that you won't add a level cap, i really hate it; because it feels despotic. We need more freedom. And it won't help us about learning that how much we are wasting our time... I hope you will let us learn more about virtue