Kingdom Come: Deliverance Kickstarter

[Lord of Lost Socks]

 

If it wasn't Czech, I would've backed it. Have zero trust in Eastern European game devs.

 

Flashpoint, Mount&Blade, Arma, Witcher? Really?

 

Nevermind Stalker, Metro, King's Bounty, IL-2, Men of War, Shadow Warrior, Hard Reset, Machinarium. Pretty sure Heroes of Might and Magic V was also developed in Russia or something.

 

Although eastern european is a pretty odd term since it's applied strangely usually referring to slavic countries. Poland is considered eastern Europe, even though it's around as far west as Sweden. And if we take Sweden in to this equation we have Paradox games, DICE and the odd Finnish game.

[Elerond]

and the odd Finnish game.

 

Like Angry Birds and Clash of Clans

[Lord of Lost Socks]

Yeah, those are bad examples

 

Was thinking more the lines of Alan Wake, Max Payne, Trine and Legend of Grimrock.

[Nonek]

Very glad to see this funded so promptly, it's a shame there's to be no female protagonist option but making a set character is valid one supposes. There seems to be a little video game renaissance occuring in Europe currently, one i'm very much enjoying.

[HoonDing]

Playing as a female character would be as realistic as a blacksmith apprentice with zero combat training rising up and saving the kingdom.

 

Why not play as son of a nobleman murdered by Hungarian invaders?

[Humanoid]

It is somewhat interesting that the story can survive the player character being a fighter, thief or bard, as long as it's not a female fighter, thief or bard.

 

 

I'm picturing in my head a game where you can play a dockworker, a chef, or an accountant, with a supposed story that would be perfectly fine with any of those roles, as long as you're a guy. It's just a bit weird to be flexible in one area but immutable in the other. Static protagonists are nothing new, but there's generally a *lot* more that's static about them other than their gender.

[Zoraptor]

Well, it is meant to be realistic medieval, which was not exactly renowned for its enlightened attitudes to much at all. And you do have examples of set protagonists where the 'class' doesn't matter except peripherally to the story- in PST class is basically irrelevant to the story for example.

 

Having said that I have seen it said that there were far more women soldiers in medieval times than people think because the attitude was that any soldier wearing trousers was a man by definition. But playing one of them wouldn't really be playing a woman anyway, it'd be playing a woman pretending to be a man.

[Keyrock]

It is somewhat interesting that the story can survive the player character being a fighter, thief or bard, as long as it's not a female fighter, thief or bard.

 

 

I'm picturing in my head a game where you can play a dockworker, a chef, or an accountant, with a supposed story that would be perfectly fine with any of those roles, as long as you're a guy. It's just a bit weird to be flexible in one area but immutable in the other. Static protagonists are nothing new, but there's generally a *lot* more that's static about them other than their gender.

It seems like, much like the Witcher games, the protagonists look is set in stone.  This would obviously make much of the development much easier, not having to allow for different body shapes, sizes, and looks in equipment design, cutscenes, etc.  Also, as Zoraptor stated, medieval Europe was a very mesculine dominated society.  Allowing you to play a female character would force extra work for the programmers and designers in tailoring equipment to different body shapes and changing the responses of NPCs to the gender of the character (if you're not going to have different responses depending on gender, what difference does it make whether you play a male or female character?).  You can get away with gender choice in fantasy games because you can always just say that in this world genders are treated more or less equally, but if you're going for something historically accurate from the medieval period, then males and females would need to play differently.  So the question becomes, is the extra work in allowing gender choice in the budget?  Also, is it worth the extra work involved?

[Bester]

Pretty sure Heroes of Might and Magic V was also developed in Russia or something.

 

Yup, my point exactly.

[SophosTheWise]

If there's anyone interested, I did an Interview with Lead Designer Dan Vavrá  

http://combobreaker.ch/?panorama=warhorses-konigreich-komme

[BruceVC]

It is somewhat interesting that the story can survive the player character being a fighter, thief or bard, as long as it's not a female fighter, thief or bard.

 

 

I'm picturing in my head a game where you can play a dockworker, a chef, or an accountant, with a supposed story that would be perfectly fine with any of those roles, as long as you're a guy. It's just a bit weird to be flexible in one area but immutable in the other. Static protagonists are nothing new, but there's generally a *lot* more that's static about them other than their gender.

 

 

 

It is somewhat interesting that the story can survive the player character being a fighter, thief or bard, as long as it's not a female fighter, thief or bard.

 

 

I'm picturing in my head a game where you can play a dockworker, a chef, or an accountant, with a supposed story that would be perfectly fine with any of those roles, as long as you're a guy. It's just a bit weird to be flexible in one area but immutable in the other. Static protagonists are nothing new, but there's generally a *lot* more that's static about them other than their gender.

It seems like, much like the Witcher games, the protagonists look is set in stone.  This would obviously make much of the development much easier, not having to allow for different body shapes, sizes, and looks in equipment design, cutscenes, etc.  Also, as Zoraptor stated, medieval Europe was a very mesculine dominated society.  Allowing you to play a female character would force extra work for the programmers and designers in tailoring equipment to different body shapes and changing the responses of NPCs to the gender of the character (if you're not going to have different responses depending on gender, what difference does it make whether you play a male or female character?).  You can get away with gender choice in fantasy games because you can always just say that in this world genders are treated more or less equally, but if you're going for something historically accurate from the medieval period, then males and females would need to play differently.  So the question becomes, is the extra work in allowing gender choice in the budget?  Also, is it worth the extra work involved?

 

 

I absolutely think the extra work would be worth the effort in the interests of inclusivity, artistic license and historical accuracy. Come on guys, those pesky female characters won't bite

 

I'm sure most of you have read this link. But it discusses how the contribution  of women and other minority groups  has not been represented accurately around fiction and general writing about historical events. Please take the time to read it

 

http://fozmeadows.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/psa-your-default-narrative-settings-are-not-apolitical/

[Humanoid]

The Witcher is a nice example because Geralt is static in much greater of a fashion than simply being a guy. I mean, he's a Witcher, not a spice merchant or a doctor (or, y'know, a thief or a bard). And despite the huge choice you make in The Witcher 2, both choices reflect the same personality, and are pragmatic in very similar ways, as opposed to when other games have completely divergent (in terms of character personality) good vs evil choice, or paragon vs renegade choice, or whatever. So apart from relatively minor alterations to fighting style, your Geralt in the end is the same Geralt everyone else who plays the game gets, for better or worse. This is a static character. Being the child of a blacksmith, then being able to do whatever you want, and be whoever you choose, is not a static character.

 

Now I'm not saying their decision is the wrong one. It is a lot of hard work to add the option, making sure the game world reacts in a believable way. But it's also hard to make the game world react differently to a popular bard than to a decorated soldier - or are they going to handwave that away and have everyone treat you like a generic commoner?

 

So perhaps yes, those resources are better spent elsewhere. But don't try to play the Bioware-esque 'artistic integrity' card, because the honest answer is just a matter of resourcing.

[BruceVC]

Some good news, I see if the game reaches its 600K mark there will be a female character. So its looking much better

[Humanoid]

Yeah, but in the manner of the small Nico parts in the various Broken Sword games and no more. I'm actually not a fan of playing stories from multiple sides, as it tends to break up one's sense of character ownership. The Banner Saga had this problem recently, as do many strategy games where the campaign consists of playing one side up to a point in the story, then playing the other - indeed it's much worse in those situations where the different parties you play are enemies because you're then actively undermining yourself. But I digress - I just want to say I'm not sure that this stretch goal would be a positive development. Smarter perhaps would be to establish the character and have them be the player character of an independent second game in the series.

[BruceVC]

Yeah, but in the manner of the small Nico parts in the various Broken Sword games and no more. I'm actually not a fan of playing stories from multiple sides, as it tends to break up one's sense of character ownership. The Banner Saga had this problem recently, as do many strategy games where the campaign consists of playing one side up to a point in the story, then playing the other - indeed it's much worse in those situations where the different parties you play are enemies because you're then actively undermining yourself. But I digress - I just want to say I'm not sure that this stretch goal would be a positive development. Smarter perhaps would be to establish the character and have them be the player character of an independent second game in the series.

 

You've raised some good points around the story and focus being split. I can see you mean. And that could dilute overall gaming experience

 

I would prefer then that they let you choose male or female right from the beginning and they use that extra money to change certain aspects of the story and the reaction you get from people.

Edited January 30, 2014 by BruceVC

[Chilloutman]

Women thing again even here? Really? Yeah you are all right, women in 15th century in central Europe were equal to man, right. Now lets talk about unicorns in space

Edited January 30, 2014 by Chilloutman

[IndiraLightfoot]

Women thing again even here? Really? Yeah you are all right, women in 15th century in central Europe were equal to man, right. Now lets talk about unicorns in space

Which thawed permafrost cave did you just crawl out of? They describe it as an RPG that is not a medieval simulator. So, a female pc is an obvious choice. They have already acknowledged this themselves. However, they are making the game around a male character, much like the Witcher games. I think that is unfortunate, but referring to medieval reality in a game produced beyond the year 2000, really? It's yet a fantasy game, for goodness sake. Should we exclude female characters from all medieval inspired games while we're at it? Then we'll have that cosy, sweaty locker room feeling, where boys will be boys, and women are from Venus. Medieval views of women are best kept medieval.

[HoonDing]

The protagonist is already a very special snowflake at any rate, so why not.

 

 

 

[Nonek]

As I see it a simple way of dealing with the matter is to simply set a realistic stretch goal reflecting all of the extra work and resources that they'll need to implement a female protagonist, voice actress, meshes, different areas, writing and content changes that an accurate portrayal of a female character would need in the extremely sexist and repressed world that they're trying to simulate. Say £2-3 million, and let the market decide.

[IndiraLightfoot]

As I see it a simple way of dealing with the matter is to simply set a realistic stretch goal reflecting all of the extra work and resources that they'll need to implement a female protagonist, voice actress, meshes, different areas, writing and content changes that an accurate portrayal of a female character would need in the extremely sexist and repressed world that they're trying to simulate. Say £0.5-1 million, and let the market decide.

Heh, I just adjusted the amount for you, but that would of course be optimal. I just find that prequel far too little for my taste.

[Chilloutman]

 

Women thing again even here? Really? Yeah you are all right, women in 15th century in central Europe were equal to man, right. Now lets talk about unicorns in space

Which thawed permafrost cave did you just crawl out of? They describe it as an RPG that is not a medieval simulator. So, a female pc is an obvious choice. They have already acknowledged this themselves. However, they are making the game around a male character, much like the Witcher games. I think that is unfortunate, but referring to medieval reality in a game produced beyond the year 2000, really? It's yet a fantasy game, for goodness sake. Should we exclude female characters from all medieval inspired games while we're at it? Then we'll have that cosy, sweaty locker room feeling, where boys will be boys, and women are from Venus. Medieval views of women are best kept medieval.

 

 

Ehm no, its not fantasy game, it have accurate historical setting. Yes its true that some blacksmith guy would probably doesnt become king (as it will not happend in game) I dont know how would you like to loose combat as women character and then get raped. Watch Joan de Arc movie and its still flavored fiction. In fact Joan didnt ever fight, she was just icon to boost morale.

[Nonek]

Yes I can understand why the change of amount Ms Lighfoot, but i'd prefer if they'd make unique content for both genders, to face head on womens struggles in this period and the strength they showed when even the good book castigated them as sinners and fonts of evil. I think that to have a woman arise such as Eleanor of Aquataine, who shook and molded kingdoms at her whim, would be a worthwhile thing and a good statement of equality in the most prejudiced of times.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Women thing again even here? Really? Yeah you are all right, women in 15th century in central Europe were equal to man, right. Now lets talk about unicorns in space

Which thawed permafrost cave did you just crawl out of? They describe it as an RPG that is not a medieval simulator. So, a female pc is an obvious choice. They have already acknowledged this themselves. However, they are making the game around a male character, much like the Witcher games. I think that is unfortunate, but referring to medieval reality in a game produced beyond the year 2000, really? It's yet a fantasy game, for goodness sake. Should we exclude female characters from all medieval inspired games while we're at it? Then we'll have that cosy, sweaty locker room feeling, where boys will be boys, and women are from Venus. Medieval views of women are best kept medieval.

 

 

Ehm no, its not fantasy game, it have accurate historical setting. Yes its true that some blacksmith guy would probably doesnt become king (as it will not happend in game) I dont know how would you like to loose combat as women character and then get raped. Watch Joan de Arc movie and its still flavored fiction. In fact Joan didnt ever fight, she was just icon to boost morale.

 

Wrong: They have stated this many times over.

1) It's a game

2) It's an RPG

3) It's not a medieval simulator

4) And they have no agenda per se vs female characters in that setting

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yes I can understand why the change of amount Ms Lighfoot, but i'd prefer if they'd make unique content for both genders, to face head on womens struggles in this period and the strength they showed when even the good book castigated them as sinners and fonts of evil. I think that to have a woman arise such as Eleanor of Aquataine, who shook and molded kingdoms at her whim, would be a worthwhile thing and a good statement of equality in the most prejudiced of times.

I'd love to see something like that. It would be a great game!

And historical figures like Queen Victoria or Boudica show that you can rule as a woman in quite different ways.

Chilloutman: If every woman just was a pushover and someone to rape, how on earth did a woman come to rule one fourth of the world in the 19th century?

Edited January 30, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Chilloutman]

19th century is not 15th. What is so shocking about it? You want to rewrite history because its now 2000+ and womens are equal now? And someone mentioned Boudica - well she was not living in catholic culture. Dont get me wrong - I am for equality but this is historical fiction and in these times women were threat badly. If setting would be set between amazon warriors I would not shout at dev that I want to play as man. I dont get why someone cant grasp on that fact. Political correctess all around again?

Edited January 30, 2014 by Chilloutman