Playing other Kickstarter funded games makes me nervous

[Mor]

 

 

Well at least 3 according to Wiki: Windows PC, Macintosh OS X, and Linux[/size]

 

 

 

Those are all PC and then I don't understand what you meant by none of them is next gen.

 

Sarex is right, platforms are such things as PC, xBox, PlayStation etc.

While Windows, OSX and linux mostly run on PC, they are just as different development platforms as the consoles. The only difference is that PC has a similar control scheme and thus only need their code ported, while consoles will also requires some game mechanics adapted.

[Sarex]

You didn't argue if it's easy or easier. You actually described the process as pushing a magic button.

 

If you read what I wrote you will see that I did in fact say exactly that. As for the lighting, I described how it is done, no magic mentioned.

 

 

1. According to all known classifications those are 3 different platforms.

 

2. All of them are already out so they are by definition CURRENT generation, alongside with Xbox One, PS4 and others. If you can buy them it's current.

 

lol

[Ink Blot]

1. According to all known classifications those are 3 different platforms.

What 'known classifications' are you referring to?

 

The platform is PC. OS X and Linux are operating systems. Why they use 'PC' instead of Windows in that list is a bit strange, but in any case the three quoted are referring to PC operating systems, not different platforms.

[Caerdon]

 

1. According to all known classifications those are 3 different platforms.

What 'known classifications' are you referring to?

 

The platform is PC. OS X and Linux are operating systems. Why they use 'PC' instead of Windows in that list is a bit strange, but in any case the three quoted are referring to PC operating systems, not different platforms.

 

 

The word "platform" can mean many things. If you mean hardware platform specifically, then you're correct. But generally it refers to computing platform, which includes the operating system.

[Infinitron]

You guys are being trolled

[Elerond]

Why they use 'PC' instead of Windows in that list is a bit strange, but in any case the three quoted are referring to PC operating systems, not different platforms.

PC as platform references to IBM PC compatible computers and operating systems, but in 1990s "Wintel" combination had such dominance in markets that PC become synonym machines with such combination.

[Ink Blot]

PC as platform references to IBM PC compatible computers and operating systems, but in 1990s "Wintel" combination had such dominance in markets that PC become synonym machines with such combination.

 

Aye, I'm aware of that. I'm almost 50, so lived through pretty much the whole evolution of personal computers.

[Hassat Hunter]

Ok, so it's done in real time, but setting it up is the same. You select the source, type and if it's not static, axis movement, the engine does the rest. You are making it out to more complex then it really is.

No, it does not. Unity doesn't feature real-time lightning, the devs had to add their own tricks to the bag to make the engine do so, and work on pre-rendered generated backgrounds and 3D objects with an evolving day-night time progression lightning system.

You're making it sound like it's a magic button press, it's not. It took quite some time to implement and work out.

Sure, you're doing out of ignorance, but it's still majorly downplaying OE's part in making this game working as it is.

I was really talking about the amount of animation. PoE is on the low spectrum of quantity of animation in games.

Ehm, no. Again, you want to somehow make it seem like this game can be made by 10 year olds and the quality is the same. It's very insulting, if I may say so.

Yes but Obsidian didn't make Unity, that is the difference. They are using a made engine which comes with it's own support I would guess. They aren't inventing anything new. So if we were going to compare it I would say that it's even easier then it was in Infinity Engine.

Obsidian didn't make infinity either, it was a BioWare engine.

Infinity was pre-made for drawn backgrounds and to be used for RPG purposes.

UNITY? Not so much. So a lot of work was to made to make it act like infinity in the first place, something you would get pre-given with Infinity.

Yet you make it seem you need to do less work with UNITY for the same result than Infinity. Which is boggling me, cause even common sense could tell you using the engine used previously makes it easier to make an "infinity-like game" than using a brand new generic engine not specifically suited towards RPG's for years.

But apparently, it's not :/

 

Basically what you're saying is "Deus Ex was a easy to make. They used Unreal. So everything they needed was pre-delivered by Epic, nothing they needed to do to make it work entirely different than Unreal"...

And you couldn't be more wrong.

Meaning they can install infinite amount of copies in the network and depending on how many seats they bought they can use X (number of) computers at the same time.

I'm pretty sure that's almost what I said. Except the infinite, since that's BS. You buy a license PER PC. Sure, you can uninstall it from one PC and onto another, but there's an absolute limit on the amount of PC's it can be installed at the same time. They check it, and they will fine people for violating that.

It's not they can install it everywhere, and just use it on X PC's simulataniously, that's not how licensing works. Installed, not used.

And considering their budget is over 4 million the software is not that large a part of it.

True. Manpower (wages) are the largest part of it. Obviously. If the software is the largest part of it, well, that would be pretty stupid.

Still doesn't mean software (and hardware, and facilities) cost money. Outsourcing costs money. There are a LOT of things that cost money, a slice of that 4M. You were claiming that they need less without a license or "modern technology", I just wonder if that's the case. Infinity was an in-house Interplay engine, this time, there are licensing costs. Again, outsourcing costs money. The licenses for art-tools cost money. It's not unlikely overall that would be more than in the past with Infity games, especially keeping inflation in mind.

Unity is actually dirt-cheap as far as game engine licensing is concerned, and I've found nothing suggesting that Royalties are part of the Terms of use.

Check this out:

 

https://store.unity3d.com/

 

The full version, of the Latest Unity (Unity pro 4) is only $1500 or $75/month per 2 seats. And a Team license add-on (which I assume Obsidian is using?) is +$500 or +$20/Month per 2 seats

 

So....$2000 for 2 computers? The team working on PoE is not that big, so we're looking at, what? about $20,000 max? Is that even worth mentioning for a game that has $4 million+ in funding to work with?

Yes. But that price will probably raise near the end when QA gets involved (although probably the x per month rather than full for them). So say around... 25.000.

People vowed that not paying WoTC would save money. It really all depends now does it, on how much that license costs. Does it more than 25,000?

The licensing also was over several different games. Did they just bought it once and got an alloted years (like EA and Star Wars currently), or did they pay a license per game?

 

Unless someone knows all these details, we can hardly tell if they save money not using the license this time, or if it was just a drop in the 4million buck, as much waved away as you guys now try to do with UNITY licenses...

[Fatback]

U pay for a unity license and can produce as many games as you want with it and why when you QA would you need more licenses wouldn't you package it up and run it as opposed to doing it in the engine especially since I wouldn't want QA testers access to variables and numbers they could change all willy nilly

[Sarex]

No, it does not. Unity doesn't feature real-time lightning, the devs had to add their own tricks to the bag to make the engine do so, and work on pre-rendered generated backgrounds and 3D objects with an evolving day-night time progression lightning system.

You're making it sound like it's a magic button press, it's not. It took quite some time to implement and work out.

Sure, you're doing out of ignorance, but it's still majorly downplaying OE's part in making this game working as it is.

 

http://books.google.rs/books?id=i9JJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=does+unity+4+feature+real-time+lighting&source=bl&ots=xPhmDv5Zeu&sig=IK2UjtU8wsTLh8wMnJhV9jMYnzY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yW01U5yZO-n-ygO6_4GIDA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=does%20unity%204%20feature%20real-time%20lighting&f=false

 

Pretty sure it says real-time lighting. I am not downplaying Obsidian's work, I am only saying that PoE is not a big budget game and that there is nothing in it that would justify a big budget. Also while I may have downplayed the work, you are definitely exaggerating it.

 

 

Ehm, no. Again, you want to somehow make it seem like this game can be made by 10 year olds and the quality is the same. It's very insulting, if I may say so.

 

No, I am not saying it is easy, I am saying that it is easier. There is not that much animation in this game if we compare it to 3d games today.

 

 

Obsidian didn't make infinity either, it was a BioWare engine.

Infinity was pre-made for drawn backgrounds and to be used for RPG purposes.

UNITY? Not so much. So a lot of work was to made to make it act like infinity in the first place, something you would get pre-given with Infinity.

Yet you make it seem you need to do less work with UNITY for the same result than Infinity. Which is boggling me, cause even common sense could tell you using the engine used previously makes it easier to make an "infinity-like game" than using a brand new generic engine not specifically suited towards RPG's for years.

But apparently, it's not :/

 

Basically what you're saying is "Deus Ex was a easy to make. They used Unreal. So everything they needed was pre-delivered by Epic, nothing they needed to do to make it work entirely different than Unreal"...

And you couldn't be more wrong.

 

So what? We weren't talking about Obsidian. We were talking about games being harder to make 15 years ago(specifically about the budget for BG). They(Bioware) had to make IE and then remake it afterwards for the IE games we know today. Obsidian hasn't, in any update so far, told us that it was struggling to make Unity do what they want, in fact all I heard from them is praise for it.

 

You are making up tangents to the story in which I haven't participated.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's almost what I said. Except the infinite, since that's BS. You buy a license PER PC. Sure, you can uninstall it from one PC and onto another, but there's an absolute limit on the amount of PC's it can be installed at the same time. They check it, and they will fine people for violating that.

It's not they can install it everywhere, and just use it on X PC's simulataniously, that's not how licensing works. Installed, not used.

 

If they had infinite computers on their network, they could install infinite copies. The admin computer would hold x number licenses and they could work on the x number of computers at the same time. X being the number of seats they payed for.

 

 

True. Manpower (wages) are the largest part of it. Obviously. If the software is the largest part of it, well, that would be pretty stupid.

Still doesn't mean software (and hardware, and facilities) cost money. Outsourcing costs money. There are a LOT of things that cost money, a slice of that 4M. You were claiming that they need less without a license or "modern technology", I just wonder if that's the case. Infinity was an in-house Interplay engine, this time, there are licensing costs. Again, outsourcing costs money. The licenses for art-tools cost money. It's not unlikely overall that would be more than in the past with Infity games, especially keeping inflation in mind.

 

I am not claiming they need less then they have now, I am claiming that making games is easier today then it was 15 years ago, I am claiming that they have enough money and that there is no reason to worry about it.

 

You are somehow imagining that I am trying to belittle the work Obsidian is doing, which is far from true. The whole point was that it is easier for them to make the game now with the superior tools they have.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Sarex

[Lady Evenstar]

I would love to see Inexile and Obsidian (and Larian for that matter), create more kickstarters and gradually refine the fan input process, I genuinely enjoy posting my overly opinionated comments on these boards and occasionally getting a slap down from Sawyer

 

I've been surprised by the lack of Larian love in this discussion of kickstarted RPGs.    As for Obsidian, I'm cautiously optimistic that they've not exhausted too many resources darting down too many rabbit holes. Mostly I worry that they'll indulge quirkiness and the "make normal really hard" crowd at the expense of wider enjoyability. And that they may have over-priomised content and features. I'm sure, though, that I will find things in Pillars of Eternity to please me.

[Piccolo]

If they were able to produce a worthy Infinity Engine style RPG with the $1.1 million they initially asked for, they should be more than capable of producing something better than the Infinity Engine games in terms of both quantity of content and quality with nearly four times that amount of money.

 

Ample funds, no pressure from publishers to rush the game for a certain deadline, and a wealth of experience in making some of the highest rated RPGs of all time. There's really no reason for them to disappoint.

[Stun]

If they were able to produce a worthy Infinity Engine style RPG with the $1.1 million they initially asked for, they should be more than capable of producing something better than the Infinity Engine games in terms of both quantity of content and quality with nearly four times that amount of money.

Well, I don't know about better, as that's a measurement of taste. But with 4x what they initially asked for, they can certainly do bigger. Keep in mind that the initial $1.1 million was for a game with only 1 city, the core 4 classes, and only a small number of companions and races. Since that time they've literally doubled everything, as well as added huge time sink-stuff like a 15 level mega dungeon and a giant stronghold, both of which come across as games in themselves!

 

Yet a lot of people still seem to be getting this "vibe" or "hunch" or "worry" that PoE will be like the IE games but will lack their length and gameplay scope. That is one fear I stopped having sometime after October of 2012. Everything about this game, as described since the end of the kickstarter has pointed to a massive thing, seemingly designed to compete with the Longer IE games, like BG2.

 

And this is what has me excited. I just hope we don't get 80 hours of mediocrity.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Stun

[forgottenlor]

If they were able to produce a worthy Infinity Engine style RPG with the $1.1 million they initially asked for, they should be more than capable of producing something better than the Infinity Engine games in terms of both quantity of content and quality with nearly four times that amount of money.

 

Ample funds, no pressure from publishers to rush the game for a certain deadline, and a wealth of experience in making some of the highest rated RPGs of all time. There's really no reason for them to disappoint.

Let's not forget they have expanded from 4 to 11 classes, added a mega dungeon and a second city. If wages are their highest expense (paying around 20 people's salaries for 2 years.), then all those added features cost a lot more time. 7 classes need animations, character pixels, extra portraits, and playtesting for balance. The city requires a lot more dialogue, quests, and playtesting, all of which cost a lot of time. I suspect the mega dungeon is probably the least taxing, assuming (perhaps falsely) that it is mostly combat oriented and reusing tile sets. I also suspect that the game may actually cost more than 4 million to make, but that Obsidian will east part of the development cost, knowing that they get a huge portion of sales, and the prospect of being to make sequals with their own IP.

Edited March 28, 2014 by forgottenlor

[600lbpanther]

Hit 'em in the feelers

     When people have gut feelings.... it’s really just gas.

 

Hoping that it seems that you might suspect that I assume it's most likely.....probably

     You can never defeat the "what if" argument. 

 

 

[Hassat Hunter]

Ehm, tile sets?

That would be a waste of a 15-layer dungeon, if it's tiled AND combat-only.

Actually, that's my fear, it's a complete and utter waste of time.

Diablo should stay in Diablo, not be part of Baldur's Gate.

http://books.google.rs/books?id=i9JJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=does+unity+4+feature+real-time+lighting&source=bl&ots=xPhmDv5Zeu&sig=IK2UjtU8wsTLh8wMnJhV9jMYnzY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yW01U5yZO-n-ygO6_4GIDA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=does%20unity%204%20feature%20real-time%20lighting&f=false

Pretty sure it says real-time lighting. I am not downplaying Obsidian's work, I am only saying that PoE is not a big budget game and that there is nothing in it that would justify a big budget. Also while I may have downplayed the work, you are definitely exaggerating it.

Can't say I've seen it before in UNITY. Must be new for 4. Even so, it only seems to talk about fixed real-time lightning sources, not variable like the day-night transition PoE will have.

Just cause it's 2D doesn't mean it's automatically 'cheap' or 'inferior' to 3D games. Or, you know, less expensive.

No, I am not saying it is easy, I am saying that it is easier. There is not that much animation in this game if we compare it to 3d games today.

Most "animating" in modern games is rigging. A lot of hit-stuff is dealt with with physics. I'm not sure how many animations a modern 3D game even has. But PoE will definitely be needing them. It's not because it's 2D and isometric walking takes less animation time. Hit/miss/flank will require animations, while 3D games can use ragdolls with impact (if gunfire gameplay), etc. etc.

So what? We weren't talking about Obsidian. We were talking about games being harder to make 15 years ago(specifically about the budget for BG). They(Bioware) had to make IE and then remake it afterwards for the IE games we know today. Obsidian hasn't, in any update so far, told us that it was struggling to make Unity do what they want, in fact all I heard from them is praise for it.

Because, it is. 15 year ago you didn't need to make normal maps, bump maps, 3D layers, real-time lightning, 3D setpieces that realistically move with the wind, higher resolution backgrounds, widescreen and 4:3 HUDs, and who knows what else.

Yup, BioWare made IE. But now Obsidian needs to do somewhat the same for PoE. That it has an Unity base doesn't necessarily make it easier or cheaper. 

Maybe a good question for the Devs would be how much stuff couldn't be done now that was wanted, similar to the IWD(2) story from Josh using IE.

If they had infinite computers on their network, they could install infinite copies. The admin computer would hold x number licenses and they could work on the x number of computers at the same time. X being the number of seats they payed for.

I'm pretty sure it works for installed, rather than actively in use. Re-installing constantly would be a big hassle to save just some money, but is possible.

Maybe in the modern streaming world it's changed to X at the same time, but I doubt that very much myself. Not in the least since it would cost corperations a lot of money

I am not claiming they need less then they have now, I am claiming that making games is easier today then it was 15 years ago, I am claiming that they have enough money and that there is no reason to worry about it.

And I am disagreeing, saying gamemaking is far more demanding now than 15 years ago. Mostly due to raised expectations of graphics.

Making an UE1 level is much faster (and thus cheaper) than making an UE4 level. There's still much progress made to make it easier and more efficient to do various things, but all the required additions for graphical fluff don't make up for that.

Similarly, making an PoE map would be far more timeconsuming, "harder" and thus more expansive than a BG2 map. Simply because it needs to be bigger, more detailed, have all kinds of special layers and particle effects, all which a BG2 map could do without.

You are somehow imagining that I am trying to belittle the work Obsidian is doing, which is far from true. The whole point was that it is easier for them to make the game now with the superior tools they have.

A point, which I am trying to prove through various means, that is false.

[Caerdon]

Ehm, tile sets?

That would be a waste of a 15-layer dungeon, if it's tiled AND combat-only.

 

Dungeons in IE games have always been built largely from tile sets. That's not going to change and anyone shouldn't expect that to change.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Guys, guys, have I ever told you how incredibly awesome Dragonfall was? From half the budget PoE has? After that game, I'm fairly certain the guys at Obsidian will be able to accomplish everything they've promised.

[Infinitron]

Guys, guys, have I ever told you how incredibly awesome Dragonfall was? From half the budget PoE has? After that game, I'm fairly certain the guys at Obsidian will be able to accomplish everything they've promised.

 

Dragonfall had all the budget of Shadowrun Returns' sales proceeds, which were probably considerable.

 

Apples and oranges, really. They already had a working platform, Obsidian is making things from scratch.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Infinitron

[Karkarov]

 

Guys, guys, have I ever told you how incredibly awesome Dragonfall was? From half the budget PoE has? After that game, I'm fairly certain the guys at Obsidian will be able to accomplish everything they've promised.

 

Dragonfall had all the budget of Shadowrun Returns' sales proceeds, which were probably considerable.

Uh I doubt it.  Shadowrun sold okay but it wasn't some run away success topping charts and was not very high price to begin with.  Don't get me wrong though, when people ask me if Kickstarter can work for games Shadowrun is actually the game I point at.  That out of the way... Dragonfall (while great) is still only about 20 hours long.  I don't expect Eternity to be a 80 hour game, but I would like to see something around 40... which is about 5 hours more than it took me to very thoroughly beat both campaigns of Shadowrun.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Eternity also had some outside funding from private individuals, not to mention Obsidian putting in some of their own money.

[Infinitron]

 

Uh I doubt it.  Shadowrun sold okay but it wasn't some run away success topping charts and was not very high price to begin with.

 

 

20,000 concurrent players is a very impressive number, even if it includes Kickstarter backers. Compare that with some other RPGs that have been released recently and you'll see. Considering how low the game's initial budget was, I think they at least made an impressive return on their investment.

 

As for Eternity's playtime, you might be surprised. Consider that there are people who have played Wasteland 2's beta for timespans of around 20 hours. That's said to be about 30% of the final game. Do the math!

Edited March 29, 2014 by Infinitron

[Karkarov]

20,000 concurrent players is a very impressive number, even if it includes Kickstarter backers. Compare that with some other RPGs that have been released recently and you'll see. Considering how low the game's initial budget was, I think they at least made an impressive return on their investment.

 

As for Eternity's playtime, you might be surprised. Consider that there are people who have played Wasteland 2's beta for timespans of around 20 hours. That's said to be about 30% of the final game. Do the math!

That proves nothing.  That just means someone has played it for 20 hours, not that the current content took 20 hours to clear.  20k concurrent players was also it's all time high, not it's average, not what it got last night, that is what it got that one time.  It's average in the last 30 days (aka the release of dragonfall) is 1.4 thousand.

 

Again I am sure it sold fine, but I seriously doubt hairbrain has gone Scrooge McDuck from their Shadowrun profits, or that they spent more than 4 million dollars on Dragonfall.

 

As for recent RPG's if you like I could compare it to say Dark Souls 2.  That won't be a very favorable comparison for Shadowrun though.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Karkarov

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Let's not forget they have expanded from 4 to 11 classes, added a mega dungeon and a second city. If wages are their highest expense (paying around 20 people's salaries for 2 years.), then all those added features cost a lot more time. 7 classes need animations, character pixels, extra portraits, and playtesting for balance.

 

I found myself at certain points actually hoping that the stretch goals wouldn't be met when they started introducing classes. While I'm very glad for Obsidian and look forward to all of the stretch material, I was deeply concerned with them getting the "core 4" correct first. All things are a variation of these, and I wanted both the focus and a chance for retrospection before going beyond them. Again, I don't regret the kick starter successes, but there are more than a few people nervous about the amount of work on Obsidian's plate.

[BrainMuncher]

 

http://books.google.rs/books?id=i9JJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=does+unity+4+feature+real-time+lighting&source=bl&ots=xPhmDv5Zeu&sig=IK2UjtU8wsTLh8wMnJhV9jMYnzY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yW01U5yZO-n-ygO6_4GIDA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=does%20unity%204%20feature%20real-time%20lighting&f=false

Pretty sure it says real-time lighting. I am not downplaying Obsidian's work, I am only saying that PoE is not a big budget game and that there is nothing in it that would justify a big budget. Also while I may have downplayed the work, you are definitely exaggerating it.

Can't say I've seen it before in UNITY. Must be new for 4. Even so, it only seems to talk about fixed real-time lightning sources, not variable like the day-night transition PoE will have.

Just cause it's 2D doesn't mean it's automatically 'cheap' or 'inferior' to 3D games. Or, you know, less expensive.

 

lol, not new in 4. Every 3D engine since the late 90s has had dynamic real time lighting. Usually just vertex lighting with no shadows at first, then a slow move towards per-pixel with shadows as hardware performance improved.

[Aqaba]

what i hope PE is: a quite big game, solid, with good story and lore, something new in the game concepts. The first step to an arc of games that can create a new epic saga like BG