Poland uber alles

[obyknven]

Historic event happened now. Russia launch first Polish  satellite into space! Poland can into space!

http://youtu.be/jaa0ExFSw2s

[obyknven]

Many people wondering why DDR so small in comparision with FRG.

 

Some think it's because small zone of Soviet occupation.

 

But territory of Germany looks like this

 

and IRL Soviet zone of occupation looks like this.

 

And half of this territory Evil Stalin give to Poland as gift.

 

He make this because Pro-soviet Poles who participiate in WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Polish_Army_(1944-1945)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Second_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_1st_Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko_Infantry_Division

 

But Modern pro-West Poles hated them so much  (becuase Soviet Poles are successfull liberators) .

 

I think if Poles have so  much hate to Stalin and Soviet Poles - they must firstly return all  given by Stalin lands to Germany.

[milczyciel]

Pink - Poland today (312,679 km²)

Red borders - Poland territory between 1918-1939 or '45 depending on point of reference (388 634 km² without taking disputable Zaolzie into account)

Blue borders - irrelevant here, but to satiate someone's curiosity it's just one of the many border drafts, that was discussed between Allies and Stalin after (or maybe even before, not sure) the WWII ended.

 

As you can see, thanks to the uncle Stalin generosity Poland lost over 70 000 km², but in my opinion it simply fades to obscurity in comparison to repressions and deportations from Kresy. Calling that "a gift" aimed to honor pro-Soviet Polish army (or armies, or just combatants) is naive at best. And I hope I'm wrong, but somehow I don't believe that's the case.

 

You are the very first Russian (I assume you are) with which I am discussing that topic, so I'll try to make it as clear as possible without being a-hole. Russia (or Soviet Union if you wish) invaded* Poland alongside Germany (or Third Reich if you wish). And both of them treated Poland citizens, territory and resources as nothing else than spoils of war. Remember a secret addendum to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact? They knew what they were doing from the very start and there's not point denying that.

Therefore please, don't be surprised that Poles are not that happy about USSR "assistance mission" (or however it is called in Russia's textbooks), nor that they felt that great about leaving their cities, villages, cemeteries, culture and history behind, so they could settle in "Recovered Territories" that most of them (according to my grandparents, and my grand-grandmother who died last year aged 105) didn't cared that much before they were forced to settle in.

 

And to address that last sentence of yours: I was born and lived all my life in Wroclaw (called Breslau before the WWII), just like my parents did, so I don't make nor do I have any legal or illegal claims over the Kresy. Wroclaw is where my life is happening, that's what important to me and I bet it's the similar deal for equally aged Germans, Ukrainians and Belarusians living in cities like Lviv (Lwow before the war) that happened once to be on the other side of the line (i.e. border). Furthermore it's none of my business how do you, or any other Russia citizen feel about Stalin, nor do I ask you to keep that Stalin imbued pride to yourself. It's also not my place to decide about things like whether or not it's totally fine to have Josef Stalin in Civilization game (at least I -a Pole- have a villain I can relate to**) and so on and so forth. I believe those are the issues only you and your fellow-countryman should discuss, because he was your leader and if you think and believe that he did great for his country, then by all means, continue... It's all cool and withing your boundaries.

Understand though, that I will not stand idly when someone is bragging about "how awesome of Comrade Stalin was, to rescue those poor, ungrateful Poles" from Nazis and how we should all praise his name.

I will not stand this, If only for my grandparents sake.

 

Goodbye

 

* If you don't like the word invasion, you may find some solace in that you're not alone - many Poles still do not consider Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia as an invasion per se, even though Czech-spoken wikipedia article called it that way as far as (more or less) 10 years ago, when I decided to learn about my homeland's faults. Faults we all have.

** as "understand", not as "feel sympathy towards"

Edited February 6, 2014 by milczyciel

[Hurlshort]

Thanks for the post milczyciel.  Oby is just a troll, so I hope you don't let his racist drivel keep you from enjoying the rest of the forums.  He's not even from Russia.

[milczyciel]

Yeah, I noticed after reading some of his post, but decided I'll try to deal with this thread "on a level" anyway.

I bet most he get is bashing, so maybe my arguing will give him at least a glimpse inside other's universes.

 

There's always that ignore feature

Thanks for cheering up

[Guard Dog]

Yeah, I noticed after reading some of his post, but decided I'll try to deal with this thread "on a level" anyway.

I bet most he get is bashing, so maybe my arguing will give him at least a glimpse inside other's universes.

 

There's always that ignore feature

Thanks for cheering up

Trading posts with Oby is like wrestling a pig. All you get is dirty and the pig likes it!

[BruceVC]

Thanks for the post milczyciel.  Oby is just a troll, so I hope you don't let his racist drivel keep you from enjoying the rest of the forums.  He's not even from Russia.

 

 

Yeah, I noticed after reading some of his post, but decided I'll try to deal with this thread "on a level" anyway.

I bet most he get is bashing, so maybe my arguing will give him at least a glimpse inside other's universes.

 

There's always that ignore feature

Thanks for cheering up

 

I've said this before but I don't think he is a troll, I genuinely believe he believes what he posts and he is trying to give us another perspective. The problem being this alternative view is either factually incorrect, biased or people just don't agree with the sentiment.

 

So I'm glad you responded with your view

[BruceVC]

 

Yeah, I noticed after reading some of his post, but decided I'll try to deal with this thread "on a level" anyway.

I bet most he get is bashing, so maybe my arguing will give him at least a glimpse inside other's universes.

 

There's always that ignore feature

Thanks for cheering up

Trading posts with Oby is like wrestling a pig. All you get is dirty and the pig likes it!

 

 

"wrestling with a pig" ..that cracked me up

[obyknven]

Pink - Poland today (312,679 km²)

Red borders - Poland territory between 1918-1939 or '45 depending on point of reference (388 634 km² without taking disputable Zaolzie into account)

Blue borders - irrelevant here, but to satiate someone's curiosity it's just one of the many border drafts, that was discussed between Allies and Stalin after (or maybe even before, not sure) the WWII ended.

Tiny Polish imperialist detected

Explain please why Belorussian and Ukrainian lands must be belongs to Poland?

Because of Polish conquests during Civil war, because right of conqueror? Ok, but because of epic fail in 1939 year Poles completely lose  this right, sorry. Stalin just return these lands to Ukraine and Belorusia ( who IRL make much more for Victory in WW2 than all Western allies (and Poles) together).

 

Edited February 6, 2014 by obyknven

[Gorgon]

I don't envy Poland during the war. Betrayed by Hitler once and Stalin twice. During the insurrection the red army even took a break from pursuing the Nazis to allow them to wipe out as many Polish loyalists as possible. The way they looked at it the Nazis were doing their job for them. 

[Walsingham]

I've said this before but I don't think he is a troll, I genuinely believe he believes what he posts and he is trying to give us another perspective. The problem being this alternative view is either factually incorrect, biased or people just don't agree with the sentiment.

 

So I'm glad you responded with your view

 

 

So you accept that oby's a he, when he used to claim to be a she. But you think the posts are pure truth?

 

FFS, man.

 

Also, hi milczyciel. From my small exposure I'd say that only a nation as awesome as Poland could have survived Communism with so much energy still in reserve.

[Zoraptor]

I don't envy Poland during the war. Betrayed by Hitler once and Stalin twice. During the insurrection the red army even took a break from pursuing the Nazis to allow them to wipe out as many Polish loyalists as possible. The way they looked at it the Nazis were doing their job for them.

 

 

That's the accusation, certainly, though the actual proof of it amounts to "but it was Stalin!".

 

The original objective of Bagration was Minsk, you can see from the map how much further Warsaw was from there. The Red Army's logistical tail was always problematic and their offensives always ran out of steam after around six weeks- and it was the entire front that stopped during early August not just the part opposite Warsaw. That's simply the way the Red Army worked, they'd build up supplies, roll forward until those supplies ran out, then stop for a couple of months. In order for the stop in front of Warsaw to be nefarious in nature it has to be shown that in this case they could have pressed on (preferably without the usual "their tanks ran out of fuel... Aha! Stalin must have ordered no fuel deliveries!) when they didn't on occasions in which they had no reason not to, and they would have benefited if they could.

 

I'd have more sympathy for Poland if they hadn't been... well, apart from the war with the soviets they also attacked Lithuania, tried to get France to attack Germany at least twice ('33 and '36, iirc), plus took part in the partition of Czechosolvakia. I'm not entirely unsympathetic, but in terms of honourable conduct they certainly were no Finland.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Zoraptor

[Walsingham]

I have to agree with Zor. I've not seen any convincing evidence the delay was deliberate.

[Tagaziel]

The original objective of Bagration was Minsk, you can see from the map how much further Warsaw was from there. The Red Army's logistical tail was always problematic and their offensives always ran out of steam after around six weeks- and it was the entire front that stopped during early August not just the part opposite Warsaw. That's simply the way the Red Army worked, they'd build up supplies, roll forward until those supplies ran out, then stop for a couple of months. In order for the stop in front of Warsaw to be nefarious in nature it has to be shown that in this case they could have pressed on (preferably without the usual "their tanks ran out of fuel... Aha! Stalin must have ordered no fuel deliveries!) when they didn't on occasions in which they had no reason not to, and they would have benefited if they could.

I wouldn't say the logistics were the problem, but rather that the military situation encouraged exceeding original operational goals to prevent the Germans from rallying. Pushing the retreating Germans beyond the Wisła river was a logical step. However, the sticky point is not so much that the Red Army didn't relieve the Warsaw Uprising, but that the Soviet command actively obstructed help. Stalin refused to allow allied planes delivering help for the uprising to land in Soviet territory for refueling and repairs, something that would have costed the Soviets very little. Except, of course, for the fact that it'd strengthen the legitimate Polish army subordinated to the legitimate Polish government in London. It was motivated by politics.

 

I'd have more sympathy for Poland if they hadn't been... well, apart from the war with the soviets they also attacked Lithuania, tried to get France to attack Germany at least twice ('33 and '36, iirc), plus took part in the partition of Czechosolvakia. I'm not entirely unsympathetic, but in terms of honourable conduct they certainly were no Finland.

"I'd have more sympathy for them" is kind of a ****ty way to put it. It's one step away from saying "The Third Reich legitimately invaded Poland because of Gliwice." You're ignoring the reality of the situation following the restoration of the independent Polish state and other countries in the region. After more than a century of enslavement by the Russian Empire (and occupation by other foreign powers in Poland's state), the new borders had to be created from scratch. It would have been impossible to recreate the first Republic, for a variety of reasons. The war with the Soviet Union and Lithuania were the unfortunate effects of the disaster that was World War I and the partitioning of the Commonwealth in 1795.

 

As for Zaolzie, it's rather worrying to see you subscribe to Reich propaganda. Czechoslovakia was annexed by the Third Reich after it was given to it by the West. Poland did not participate in the partitioning and did not sanction the move. What it did was occupy a vital strategic region in Zaolzie to protect its interests. You can claim moral absolutism and say it was wrong, but the fact are that the Third Reich was an increasingly hostile foreign power. If you're in danger, do you ignore it or do you take whatever precautions are necessary? Czechoslovakia would've been a German colony either way, its fate was sealed. But the logical Polish move allowed Hitler's propaganda department to distribute the blame and slander Poland as a partner of the Reich in the partitioning.

 

Last, the pre-emptive war. Do you honestly believe that a preventive war was unwarranted, considering numerous hostile actions by Germany aiming at the revision of the borders, undermining the Polish state, and rearmament? Both in context and in hindsight, it would have been the lesser evil. You're basically claiming that the Polish state should've taken it up the ass, because everyone except Poland has the right to self-defense.

 

The comparison to Finland is also unwarranted, as unlike Finland, Poland never had the advantage of rough terrain that would be wondrous in a defensive war. We're a corridor on the Great European Plain, with no natural borders west or east. Decrying Polish foreign policy as aggressive while ignoring the context is ridiculous.

[213374U]

Trading posts with Oby is like wrestling a pig. All you get is dirty and the pig likes it!

 

Well, there's always the ignore/report buttons. However Oby's threads are always popular (as lof's were) and foster some rather interesting discussions. I've been gone for a while, but it's not oby I see trolling...

[Malcador]

He's largely harmless, I find.  And I always learn something interesting from the historical posts people make, or at least find something I can look up.

[HoonDing]

[Agiel]

Comintern had also liquidated the existing Polish Communist party during the purges in the run-up to the Second World War, replacing it with one far more amiable to the Soviet Union's interests. From that we can glean that Stalin's plans for Poland had been on the cards for as long as Hitler's.

 

And, you know, Katyn.

[Rosbjerg]

I see there's no real point for this other than antagonism.