Stamina Regeneration POLL (Merge?)

[Osvir]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64680-stamina-regeneration/?p=1394253

From that post in that thread. Merge or seperate topics?

1. Instantly after battle. Lose 100%. Gain 100%.

EASY-CASUAL-MODE

 

2. Regenerate Slowly. Lose 20%, gain 5% within X in-game hour.

HARD-NORMAL-MODE

3. Regenerate Fast. Lose 20%, gain 10% within X in-game hour.

NORMAL-EASY-CASUAL-MODE

4. No regeneration. Lose 20% in battle, stay at 80% until next rest.
HARDCORE-HARD-MODE

Elaboration:
- Lose 20% in ONE battle, stay at 80% until next rest.
- Lose 10% in NEXT battle, stay at 70% until next rest
etc.etc.

5. Depletes over time and no regeneration. 5% every in-game hour.
HARDCORE-MODE

The capital letters underneath each are simply how I envision these various poll answers in comparison to each other. I reflect "Which seems easier and which seems harder?" mainly. I realize it also depends lots on how hard combat is to begin with, and a very important factor to the equation. But regardless how I bend and twist it and look at it at different angles, 5 is the hardest option (if combat is already hard as it is, then 5 would make combat even harder).

I like challenge, "If the challenge does not exist, then no one can ever overcome it".

Why are older games hard and difficult? Because they were designed to be hard and difficult in many ways. You had to overcome something to beat many of them. The difficulty existed and was created by the developers. If it isn't created, then it isn't there. This is why I promote any and all suggestions or discussions for harder & challenging options.

I want Eternity to be as difficult as it can be. Maybe even so difficult that the devs themselves have trouble to defeat it.

"If God exists, can he create a mountain that he can not lift?" type of philosophical question.

In a sense: Developers of Eternity = Gods/Creators of that world. Well... can you?

Edited December 5, 2013 by Osvir

[Jarmo]

Very fast.

A minute after fight everybody should be at least 50% up already, the remainder a bit slower.

But not quite so fast that if the party is attacked again 5 seconds after the first fight they're already back to 100%.

[Osvir]

That's a good method too that I didn't think of Jarmo. Fast recovery up to a point (say, 50%) then slow regen afterwards. Perhaps even slower and slower.

Say you spend 70% Stamina in a fight, you're down at 30%, it goes fast up to a certain set %. For instance, say a Fighter has a 30% Regen Rate. That'd mean he'd get up to 60% fast after the fight, but afterwards it'd regenerate slowly.

Another example to shed more color to the idea. You lose 60%, down at 40%, as a Fighter you'd get 70% quick, but then it'd go slow.

Fast Regen Rate and Slow Regen Rate are two "mechanics" I can think of.

Fighter Example:
A) Fast Regen Rate: 30%
B) Slow Regen Rate: 15%

Example:
1. You lose 60%. Now at 40%
2. Fast Regen to 70%.
3. Slow Regen to 85%.

So you wouldn't get 100%, but enough to be "fresh". Next fight, you'd be at 85%, lose another 60%, down at 25%. Fast Regen to 55%. Slow to 70%.

etc.etc. just throwing a ball here.

[Sabotin]

Considering stamina is supposed to be the short term resource (as far as I understand it) I'd make it instantly recoverable after an encounter. For long term management we've got health.

For a more hardcore experience I'd make it regen after fights really slowly at first but faster as time passes, but that might result in just waiting around. As would in my opinion any kind of positive regen other than instant.

Going negative would be interesting as long as it's somewhat balanced with how much stamina you need/lose per encounter under various circumstances and with healing abilities.

[Gfted1]

I voted option 1. Its already going to be a hassle to manage Health, Id rather not two mechanics like that.

[Infinitron]

Stamina is supposed to be per-battle, so the only point of making it not recharge immediately is if you want to add a little bit of tension when one battle is immediately followed by another. Which might be cool.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Infinitron

[Sensuki]

I voted option 1. Its already going to be a hassle to manage Health, Id rather not two mechanics like that.

 

lol

[SophosTheWise]

Stamina is supposed to be per-battle, so the only point of making it not recharge immediately is if you want to add a little bit of tension when one battle is immediately followed by another. Which might be cool.

 

Still, that won't work for most people because they can just wait after a fight.

[Sensuki]

Screw most people. If devs listened to most people every game would have automatic win buttons and sh1t.

 

Health Regen speed could be something tied to difficulty or modes. Slower Health Regen could be an Expert mode feature or something, then Gfted1 can just chuck on his dontwannamanageanything mode and be happy.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Sensuki

[coffeetable]

pretty sure it's instant-regen. the whole point of the stamina mechanism and per-encounter abilities is so devs only need to calibrate fights against a fully-functional party

[Sensuki]

pretty sure it's instant-regen. the whole point of the stamina mechanism and per-encounter abilities is so devs only need to calibrate fights against a fully-functional party

Well some abilities and spells will be per-rest, and I think I recall Josh saying that some encounters will be balanced against the party being fully rested, even though they might not be.

[Mor]

I voted option 1. Its already going to be a hassle to manage Health, Id rather not two mechanics like that.

Same here. I think stamina is part of the new combat design, tied with per battle abilities and possibly used for those attacks (as I suggested before) In that I don't think Osvir understand the designers goals by creating health and stamina, or at least his suggestion doesn't appear play to either strength.

 

If the intent is to encourage people rest more, then going by BG like system, it should be a timer based drain on max stamina i.e. after several hours start to lower max stamina by % down to 80%.

[Osvir]

 

I voted option 1. Its already going to be a hassle to manage Health, Id rather not two mechanics like that.

Same here. I think stamina is part of the new combat design, tied with per battle abilities and possibly used for those attacks (as I suggested before) In that I don't think Osvir understand the designers goals by creating health and stamina, or at least his suggestion doesn't appear play to either strength.

 

If the intent is to encourage people rest more, then going by BG like system, it should be a timer based drain on max stamina i.e. after several hours start to lower max stamina by % down to 80%.

The intent I have is simply to make resting make "sense". In any of the Infinity Engine games it doesn't "Rest for 40000 days if you'd like. Go ahead". In any of the TES games it doesn't either for that matter. What I am proposing is simply a Stamina that lasts for about a day. Realism. Immersion.

 

I also want to get away from the "Rest as much as you like" deal, and have a "Rest Cooldown", that's just my personal opinion. Basically the idea is you can only rest once every in-game day. Now, the mechanics I am proposing would be that you'd have to rest early game, every in-game day. But as the game progresses you'd have to worry less and less about it and perhaps not even rest until every 3rd day, or even 4th day. But you'd only be able to rest once that 3rd or 4th day.

 

As you'd level you'd get more Stamina, or Stamina would last longer and abilities and attacks wouldn't cost as much. Diablo 2 is a prime example, you can barely run at all early game, but later as you progress you never have to worry about Stamina.

 

Another idea that pops up is a sort of "Insomnia" mechanic. Stay up for too many days in a row, you'd get penalties.

 

Did I mention I want challenge and difficulty? Bring it on!

 

Level 1 Character:

- Enough Stamina for 1 day AND combat encounters

- Rest, can't rest again when getting up

 

Level 3 Character:

- Enough Stamina for 2 days AND combat encounters

- Rest, can't rest for a full day after getting up

- Rest on Day 1, can't rest more on Day 1.

- Choose to rest on Day 2 instead, can't rest more on Day 2.

 

Level 8 Character:

- Enough Stamina for 4 days AND combat encounters

- See Level 3 Character

 

Level 12 Character:

- Enough Stamina for 7 days AND combat encounters

- See Level 3 Character

- Insomnia Penalties kick in after 4 days

 

All numbers are just conceptual~

 

I also know what the design intention is of Obsidian, but I'm trying to rattle a cage and explore potential harder and more challenging methods. Something to spice up difficulty. Some of these ideas are also something I'm reflecting on myself for potential future mods, and this community is a great ballpark of people to juggle ideas with.

[teknoman2]

i'd go for 1+5. for hardcore

every in game hour, your max stamina decreases by 3%, but the stamina after a battle regenerates at 100% of your current max. so if someone has 100 stamina and fights, his stamina will go back to 100 after the fight. after 10h from rest he has 70 max. if he fights and loses some, at the end of the fight his stamna will go back to 70. if you stay without rest long enough, you will eventually go around with 1 stamina

[Sensuki]

Oh yeah, by the way - Strength affects Stamina Regeneration rate, so it may not be *as* instant as you think.

[Gfted1]

Health Regen speed could be something tied to difficulty or modes. Slower Health Regen could be an Expert mode feature or something, then Gfted1 can just chuck on his dontwannamanageanything mode and be happy.

Link? Afaik, Health can only be replenished by resting in the dedicated rest spots. And yes, Id happily watch that mechanic die an inglorious death.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

If it's not option 1, then it looks like I'll be making a cup of tea and watching a TV show on my second monitor while my stamina eventually comes back..

Edited December 6, 2013 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Sensuki]

 

Health Regen speed could be something tied to difficulty or modes. Slower Health Regen could be an Expert mode feature or something, then Gfted1 can just chuck on his dontwannamanageanything mode and be happy.

Link? Afaik, Health can only be replenished by resting in the dedicated rest spots. And yes, Id happily watch that mechanic die an inglorious death.

 

 

Sorry I meant Stamina Regeneration not Health Regen

 

And I was partially confused. I hadn't read the link for a while and I confused bonus healing with bonus Stamina Regeneration

 

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9059

 

Healing in Project Eternity is Stamina Regeneration though, so this might include passive Stamina Regeneration and Active Stamina Regeneration.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Sensuki

[rjshae]

The only time you'd not want regeneration after a battle is when there is going to be another battle immediately afterward. In that case, the developers can just stage the two. Otherwise, I'd prefer the recovery to be abstracted and take just long enough for the player to notice the process taking place.

[Sensuki]

From what we know Stamina Regen outside of combat will be relatively quick, what that means I am not sure. But it does seem likely that it is possible to walk into the next encounter without having regained full health on a character that was KO'd in the previous one. I'd say it would be worth looking at previous games, such as Knights of the Old Republic 2 to get some of an idea of Health Regen speed, although it will likely be faster than KotOR 2 as it took longer to get places in that game without Force Speed on.

 

I'd also like to add to Gfted1 - you won't really manage Health in this game. From what I've read of your posts you aren't really concerned about difficulty and generally prefer things to be pretty easy going. If you play on a lower difficulty (such as Easy) then you probably won't need to manage your "Health" very often at all.

 

The Health system is actually very simple.

 

You do not need to worry about your Health until you are down to 25% or less.

 

This is the only time you will need to be careful, and even then if you do not have Permanent Death on, it's not a huge deal unless you get multiple characters down below 25% Health, you can always micro low HP characters to the back and have them use long range weapons to stay out of the fight (at a marginal efficacy cost).

 

From the sounds of it, the area designers are going to be putting in regular exits back to the surface/previous levels in dungeons and probably more resting sites than are found in the game "Knights of the Chalice" which was one of the games that inspired this resting mechanic (and even in that game, apart from the areas where you do not get to rest for a while because there is no campsite, you can abuse rest roughtly as easy as in the IE games).

 

If you rest at every opportunity you get, then you will likely very rarely run into trouble with your Health unless the area designer makes a specific area that is meant to test your resource management by not offering a rest for a while, or limiting the amount of rests at a campsite in a dungeon. This might frustrate you, but that is the point, and it probably won't happen very often.

 

As long as you remember those few basic things, you will be fine.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Sensuki

[neo6874]

I'd like it to be kind of a mix, and after poking around it kinda seems they're going that way.

 

Fighters (apparently) have a high "in combat" passive stamina regen -- maybe the only class that actually has one, whereas the rest of the party has to kinda hide behind the fighters, and kill off the mooks, while burning some part of their stamina for the "2 minutes" that are actually played out over the 20 rounds that happened. 2 minutes of "strenuous exercise" for otherwise really fit people is taxing -- they'll be a little winded for a minute or so, but not overly tired.  Take a few hits during the fight, and you'll be more tired (but still "uninjured").

 

Thinking about it, it's pretty well thought out, and slips into "real world" thinking a little better than the D&D-style "you have 50 HP".  What I mean is:

 

• PE - a L1 fighter might have 5 HP, and 100 stamina.  You'll burn stamina just by fighting, and the losses from getting hit are more representative of the cuts, scrapes, and bruises you get as the other guy's attacks connect ... but you don't actually lose "1HP" til you're outta stamina and the bad guy can get a square hit on your jaw ... or stab you in the leg with his dagger, etc... 
• D&D - a L1 fighter has 12 HP, and really as long as you're >0, you don't lose anything (you might be a little more careful at 2-3 than you were at 10-12 ... but PCs are "generally" better fit than equivalent mooks at low levels ... well, unless the DM throws you into a pit with a vampire or something ... 

Edited December 6, 2013 by neo6874

[Mor]

You do not need to worry about your Health until you are down to 25% or less.

 

This is the only time you will need to be careful, and even then if you do not have Permanent Death on, it's not a huge deal unless you get multiple characters down below 25% Health, you can always micro low HP characters to the back and have them use long range weapons to stay out of the fight (at a marginal efficacy cost).

25% ? I assume its an arbitrary number. As for the last, I like the barbarian ability that allows him to ignore moving penalties and rush at your undefended weak behind.

[Sensuki]

25% ? I assume its an arbitrary number. As for the last, I like the barbarian ability that allows him to ignore moving penalties and rush at your undefended weak behind.

Stamina Damage is converted to Health Damage at a ratio of 4:1.

 

If you have 100 Health and 100 Stamina, you can take 400 points of damage over an adventuring day before your character runs out of Health Points (not counting spells or abilities or whatever that alter this ratio).

 

A character can be the equivalent of KO'd 3 times in an adventuring day (using the above example, take 100 damage per encounter over three consecutive encounters and drop in battle in each one) before they run the risk of becoming maimed (standard difficulty) or permanent death (standard, permadeath on - or expert mode ticked).

 

You don't have to start worrying about that state until you've taken 75% Health Damage, which in my example would have been equivalent to 300 damage. That's when it becomes a concern.

 

You will need to be more mindful of your health as a resource on higher difficulties. Eg. you might perform averagely in an encounter and lose more health points than 'expected' and find yourself low on Health with a string of encounters to go to complete a quest. This likely won't be too much of a problem due to the ability to back track to the nearest resting place or your Stronghold but I would assume that there will be some points of the game where you are 'locked' in the level you are on until you progress through it, like the Cult of the Unseeing Eye in Baldur's Gate 2 (it's been 6 or so years since I last played BG2 so I forget if you can rest there).

 

Hardest/Path of the Damned will probably require you to rest a lot more often.

 

EDIT:

 

 

• PE - a L1 fighter might have 5 HP, and 100 stamina. You'll burn stamina just by fighting, and the losses from getting hit are more representative of the cuts, scrapes, and bruises you get as the other guy's attacks connect ... but you don't actually lose "1HP" til you're outta stamina and the bad guy can get a square hit on your jaw ... or stab you in the leg with his dagger, etc...

 

No, that L1 Fighter will drop in one or two hits, because after taking 20 damage, he will be at 0HP.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Sensuki

[Osvir]

Hardest/Path of the Damned will probably require you to rest a lot more often.

I think the opposite. Hardest should limit you to rest less, and easiest should allow you to rest as much as you like. In the former you've got to survive the day, so it progressively gets harder. A goblin or two that you smacked in the face earlier with a good laugh might later towards the night not look very fun when they are three or even four.

 

In the latter it wouldn't matter because you could rest as much as you'd like and smack some goblins around as you please. 

[Sensuki]

I think you're missing the point. Hardest/Path of the Damned requires you to manage your resources and is more taxing on your resources. Health is a resource and on higher difficulties, you will run out of it more quickly.

 

The difficulty will be higher on a per-encounter basis, where you will take more Health Damage.

 

The situation you describe will arise _WHEN_ the designers intend them to, such as areas with limited to no resting that you are trapped in for the duration of a quest objective, or when you mis-manage your resources.

 

Easier difficulties require less resource management, and thus will probably not REQUIRE resting as often. There may also be instances where on harder difficulties resting spots are limited inside dungeons (until you complete the quest objective) and on easier difficulties they are not.