Why Did Isometric 3D Rpgs Fall Out Of Vogue?

[Hassat Hunter]

Don't say that... Bethesda might sue you too!

[Lephys]

Don't say that... Bethesda might sue you too!

Crap! What have I DONE?! Next I'll say "elder" or some-

 

*claps hands over mouth* O_O

 

I'm doomed!

 

Wait, I didn't say "the" yet...

 

-______-.......

[curryinahurry]

 

I wouldn't call that "panning", simply "moving"...

Hey... that's just how he scrolls...

 

 

Lovely.

 

Ok, the point I was trying to make still stands, I really would like to be able to drag the view with my mouse while in a zoomed frame.  I would prefer this to screen edge scrolling, but that would suffice in a pinch.  It would likely have to be done in a paused state with an Alt or Ctrl + Mouse button command.  NWN2 tried this with the camera patch, but it was a bit of a mess.  

 

I'm wondering if any other isometric games have this type of function.  

[Hassat Hunter]

Ehm, all IE games allowed you to move the camera over the map. I doubt PE would be different, zoomed or not.

[Lephys]

Ok, the point I was trying to make still stands, I really would like to be able to drag the view with my mouse while in a zoomed frame.  I would prefer this to screen edge scrolling, but that would suffice in a pinch.  It would likely have to be done in a paused state with an Alt or Ctrl + Mouse button command.  NWN2 tried this with the camera patch, but it was a bit of a mess.  

 

I'm wondering if any other isometric games have this type of function.

I hear ya. I'm also not very fond of edge-scrolling. Which is weird, 'cause I used to do it all the time (and be fine with it) in all the old, old strategy games. Then one day, I discovered things like right-click-drag scrolling (a la Black and White 2), and arrow-key (or W A S D) scrolling. And wow... SO convenient and intuitive. You're mainly interacting with things with the mouse, so either a mouse function allows to move the whole field of view instead of just the cursor OR the keyboard (which you've most likely already got your other hand situated upon) can perform that function while your mouse is free to interact to its heart's content.

[Zeckul]

Hey everybody

 

I am SO hyped to discover that Obsidian are working on a new rpg especially one that ISN'T first person which leads me to wonder...just why did isometric 3D rpgs fall out of vogue?

Darklands, Wasteland, Ultima, Dungeon Seige, Fallout, Planetscape: Torment all had one thing in common; they were isometric.

 

I suppose you could argue that as technology improved it was a natural progression to move to first person; however, I disagree, why weren't the advances in technology  applied to isometric 3D?

 

This article indicates that the genre is back in a big way, so why exactly did it fall out of favour?

I would attribute this to the move towards console and cross-platform titles. This itself was motivated by gamer expectations requiring bigger budgets which in return required bigger markets. PC-only games became much more rare, and with them, controls that required a mouse and keyboard. A gamepad is a clumsy device to manipulate a group of characters, so party-based RPGs didn't make sense. But if you're controlling a single character, then you can simply attach the camera to that character and simplify controls even more that way.

 

The only reason games like Project Eternity and Tides of Numenera are possible today is crowdfunding, which allows a developer like Obsidian to target a more limited market and make the game they truly want to make rather than try to please a theoretical mass market.

 

Ultima was in part first-person by the way; I think it was the main inspiration behind Elder Scrolls.

[curryinahurry]

Ehm, all IE games allowed you to move the camera over the map. I doubt PE would be different, zoomed or not.

 

Different engine; you're right in that I doubt there will be much problem with screen edge scrolling, but its a fairly crappy solution for 2014.  Direct dragging with the mouse cursor would be best, but I'm not sure if there are re-draw issues with Unity-generated graphics when zoomed in.  This could make the game choppy on some machines.

Edited November 8, 2013 by curryinahurry

[Silent Winter]

 

Ok, the point I was trying to make still stands, I really would like to be able to drag the view with my mouse while in a zoomed frame.  I would prefer this to screen edge scrolling, but that would suffice in a pinch.  It would likely have to be done in a paused state with an Alt or Ctrl + Mouse button command.  NWN2 tried this with the camera patch, but it was a bit of a mess.  

 

I'm wondering if any other isometric games have this type of function.

I hear ya. I'm also not very fond of edge-scrolling. Which is weird, 'cause I used to do it all the time (and be fine with it) in all the old, old strategy games. Then one day, I discovered things like right-click-drag scrolling (a la Black and White 2), and arrow-key (or W A S D) scrolling. And wow... SO convenient and intuitive. You're mainly interacting with things with the mouse, so either a mouse function allows to move the whole field of view instead of just the cursor OR the keyboard (which you've most likely already got your other hand situated upon) can perform that function while your mouse is free to interact to its heart's content.

 

I always use cursors to scroll around  when playing BG (via BGT mod - not sure if that makes a difference) - that way I can keep my mouse ready to click - I'm hoping PE has a similar ability

[ShadowTiger]

Having played a bunch of isometric games, I have never once felt the need to rotate the camera. I think it is a huge waste of time and resources creating a 3D world if you can get away with a 2D one. 

 

I certainly don't want to be required to rotate the camera to know where everything is, that is the beauty of a well designed isometric game. 

 

I like being able to use the arrow keys to scroll around instead of the mouse, not every game supports multiple monitors.

Edited November 8, 2013 by ShadowTiger

[JFSOCC]

Having played a bunch of isometric games, I have never once felt the need to rotate the camera.

it was a big relief to me when I found out I could do it in the Commandos games. But then, it was rather essential for solving the encounters there.

[Hassat Hunter]

Different engine; you're right in that I doubt there will be much problem with screen edge scrolling, but its a fairly crappy solution for 2014. Direct dragging with the mouse cursor would be best, but I'm not sure if there are re-draw issues with Unity-generated graphics when zoomed in. This could make the game choppy on some machines.

Different engine, sure... but they're trying to replicate IE as best as possible.

Why is this a crappy solution in 2014? Because all other games in 2014 have fixed cameras on their PC and thus scrolling is made extra difficult, since usually the camera is locked on them? If so, that's not a very good reason IMO.

While dragging with the mouse seems reasonable (and I assume will be in) I have no reason not to believe simple mouse scrolling like in the BG's would feel absolutely fine in PE, rather than in other modern game with their PC-locked cameras.

[Karkarov]

 

Different engine; you're right in that I doubt there will be much problem with screen edge scrolling, but its a fairly crappy solution for 2014. Direct dragging with the mouse cursor would be best, but I'm not sure if there are re-draw issues with Unity-generated graphics when zoomed in. This could make the game choppy on some machines.

Different engine, sure... but they're trying to replicate IE as best as possible.

Why is this a crappy solution in 2014? Because all other games in 2014 have fixed cameras on their PC and thus scrolling is made extra difficult, since usually the camera is locked on them? If so, that's not a very good reason IMO.

While dragging with the mouse seems reasonable (and I assume will be in) I have no reason not to believe simple mouse scrolling like in the BG's would feel absolutely fine in PE, rather than in other modern game with their PC-locked cameras.

 

I don't see why they can't just make WASD move the camera around, pretty sure they did it in later Infinity Engine games.

[Malekith]

 

 

Different engine; you're right in that I doubt there will be much problem with screen edge scrolling, but its a fairly crappy solution for 2014. Direct dragging with the mouse cursor would be best, but I'm not sure if there are re-draw issues with Unity-generated graphics when zoomed in. This could make the game choppy on some machines.

Different engine, sure... but they're trying to replicate IE as best as possible.

Why is this a crappy solution in 2014? Because all other games in 2014 have fixed cameras on their PC and thus scrolling is made extra difficult, since usually the camera is locked on them? If so, that's not a very good reason IMO.

While dragging with the mouse seems reasonable (and I assume will be in) I have no reason not to believe simple mouse scrolling like in the BG's would feel absolutely fine in PE, rather than in other modern game with their PC-locked cameras.

 

I don't see why they can't just make WASD move the camera around, pretty sure they did it in later Infinity Engine games.

 

As long as it can be moved with mouse scrolling like IE games, every other option on top of that is fine.

[curryinahurry]

 

 

 

Different engine; you're right in that I doubt there will be much problem with screen edge scrolling, but its a fairly crappy solution for 2014. Direct dragging with the mouse cursor would be best, but I'm not sure if there are re-draw issues with Unity-generated graphics when zoomed in. This could make the game choppy on some machines.

Different engine, sure... but they're trying to replicate IE as best as possible.

Why is this a crappy solution in 2014? Because all other games in 2014 have fixed cameras on their PC and thus scrolling is made extra difficult, since usually the camera is locked on them? If so, that's not a very good reason IMO.

While dragging with the mouse seems reasonable (and I assume will be in) I have no reason not to believe simple mouse scrolling like in the BG's would feel absolutely fine in PE, rather than in other modern game with their PC-locked cameras.

 

I don't see why they can't just make WASD move the camera around, pretty sure they did it in later Infinity Engine games.

 

As long as it can be moved with mouse scrolling like IE games, every other option on top of that is fine.

 

 

That would be fine as a minimum, no doubt.  

 

The issue for me is that the screen resolutions are quite different from the IE games; that was my point Hassat Hunter (regarding my 2014 reference).  Given the technology and resolutions at the time,  scrolling was pretty much mandatory to allow smooth gameplay and to get around the battlefield, especially for an outdoor encounter.  Given the outdoor screenshot we were given as an example, scrolling won't be much of an issue in full frame (1x zoom).  Even zoomed in 2x, most of the scrolling would be in fairly small increments so moving the mouse over to the screen edge will be cumbersome.  WASD or arrow keys could be OK as a solution, but direct dragging with the mouse would be the most responsive.

[Hassat Hunter]

Of course, WASD and mouse-scrolling.

Just wondering why some people think it's 'old' or outdated or something?

 

I definitely prefer mouse scrolling (or clicking on the map) in IE games, never even bothered with WASD.

 

@ curryinahurry; The screenshot was a small portion in a bigger map. Scrolling would still be necessary, maps are bigger than a single frame.

[Lephys]

 

Having played a bunch of isometric games, I have never once felt the need to rotate the camera.

it was a big relief to me when I found out I could do it in the Commandos games. But then, it was rather essential for solving the encounters there.

 

I had absolutely no idea! Of course, I only played the first one.

[curryinahurry]

 

@ curryinahurry; The screenshot was a small portion in a bigger map. Scrolling would still be necessary, maps are bigger than a single frame.

 

Larger than what we where shown are the area maps, which was in one of the updates.  That would likely have a different set of tools like directly clicking on the map as you mentions or possibly mouse-wheel dynamic zooming a la google maps.  Yes you could scroll an entire area, and if that is enjoyable for you, I hope that you have that option.  For me, having to scroll in that manner has always been wildly annoying, so I hope we have options.

[Silent Winter]

 

@ curryinahurry; The screenshot was a small portion in a bigger map. Scrolling would still be necessary, maps are bigger than a single frame.

 

Larger than what we where shown are the area maps, which was in one of the updates.  That would likely have a different set of tools like directly clicking on the map as you mentions or possibly mouse-wheel dynamic zooming a la google maps.  Yes you could scroll an entire area, and if that is enjoyable for you, I hope that you have that option.  For me, having to scroll in that manner has always been wildly annoying, so I hope we have options.

The dungeon levels use large map areas - it might scroll with your party as they move but since you can move a character away from the group (to scout) then you might want to scroll a bit yourself (not necessarily across the whole map - there's the 'map' screen for that like in BG) but some scrolling around your spread out team would be handy (again, like in BG)

[curryinahurry]

^ Scrolling isn't the issue, there are a variety of ways to move the screen regardless of why one might want to do it.  The particular problem with screen edge scrolling with a mouse cursor is that one has to move the cursor all the way to the screen edge and keep it there while the screen scrolls.  It's a lot of mouse travel and a fairly inefficient as a way of moving the screen.  That may not be a big deal for some people, some might like the nostalgic quality of doing so, but for others, like me, it will be a nuisance if there are other plausible options like dragging the screen with the mouse or WASD (or arrows for the left handed).  These other methods require less or no unnecessary mouse travel while keeping the cursor close to the object one might want to manipulate.

Edited November 9, 2013 by curryinahurry

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, the biggest problem I see with right-mouse dragging is that the right mouse button could be used (IMO) much more efficiently than merely for the camera. For quick access to spells or feats for example instead of dragging to the bottom of the screen. For various move-commands other than simple go there. So many things to think of right mouse could make easier without sacrificing it to camera-control.

 

Would still leave WASD wide open.

[Karkarov]

Well, the biggest problem I see with right-mouse dragging is that the right mouse button could be used (IMO) much more efficiently than merely for the camera. For quick access to spells or feats for example instead of dragging to the bottom of the screen. For various move-commands other than simple go there. So many things to think of right mouse could make easier without sacrificing it to camera-control.

 

Would still leave WASD wide open.

Could always use the middle mouse button for it.

[Chaos Theory]

I feel claustrophobic in games now when I cannot tilt the camera to see the horizon or rotate to see what's around me.  P:E will be a nice throwback, but games with 2D fixed perspectives are not something I'm generally interested in.  NWN was about as far back as I'd prefer regarding a camera I can manipulate.

 

I could care less about graphics-- 2D or 3D in RPGs.  But I need to be able to look around, and the only way to do that is with 3D engines.

[Messier-31]

Frankly there is no such thing as vogue, just plain popularity of the masses. There are some people who like certain stuff more than the others, and companies that try to provide the product for a wider audience, thus making more profit out of it in the process. And it is the same scheme for any industry, everchanging with time.

 

I had this vision of how Baldur's Gate would look like if BioWare would be making it in 2013...

• less locations because of game size (no countryside);
• locations trimmed of content ("a Melicamp? what's that?");
• stroll from point A to point B;
• no walking into someone's house;
• ever lasting cinematic feel;
• dialogue circle (*yes*, *no*, *maybe*);
• gay romance with Minsc;

Am no homophobic, but you get the picture.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Messier-31

[neo6874]

 

Now, which is better and why, isometric or top-down? Discuss.

 

IMO, Isometric, because you see your characters, rather than just their head and shoulders (OK, sure they could use flat sprites, but that's getting more to side/vertical scroll a.la Super Mario/Comanche/Zero Wing[in AD2101, war was beginning...]).  It also lends to better looking  environments, since the developers have the option of putting stuff on the walls (or detailing them more than simple "this is a cut stone wall) -- think the original Zelda vs A Link to the Past (yes, I realize you've got technology improvements as well)

[Mungri]

Most 3D RPGs give me nausea and migraines because the camera movement and angles are just terribly done, the worst offending of with were NWN1 and 2.

 

The only recent 3D RPG I found fluid and comfortable to play was Amalur something Reckoning. To me it was a perfect 3D ARPG, but I also believe that strategic party based RPGs absolutely do not work in 3D engines, at least not any other than DAO.