What would PE look like if Obsidian catered to the worst of us?

[mcmanusaur]

I would fear some kind of hyper-asymmetric design where NPC's treat mage characters like gods and other characters like peasants.

 

And a world map that looks something like this:

 

[mcmanusaur]

Having kill experience in the game prevents other manner of rewarding experience? Why?

 

Well, if you successfully sneak past an enemy and get experience for that, you probably shouldn't be able to go back and kill them for more experience, and "objective" experience solves that issue pretty nicely.

[Gfted1]

Well, if you successfully sneak past an enemy and get experience for that, you probably shouldn't be able to go back and kill them for more experience, and "objective" experience solves that issue pretty nicely.

Or whatever magical line your party just snuck past that awarded experience could also flag the mook as unkillable / no xp.

 

Your example is what I call getting lost in the minutia (not you the poster). They are so worried about improbable one-offs (sneaking past then going back to kill, who the hell does that? I know, I know, EVERYONE will claim they do just that) that the whole system suffers for it, imo.

[Elerond]

So if a party member gets injured, you need to trudge back to town or a campsite to rest because you lack other healing choices? Or reload ...  Because limiting the player to a single choice is deep gameplay? I could understand preferring herbal/medicinal remedies to magical ones, but inflicting one-size-fits-all punitive tedium on the player after every difficult battle just sounds like poor design.  There must be something I'm missing, at least I hope so.

 

Game has to health stats that are health and stamina. Stamina is quickly regenerating stat and most of damage is reduced from it. Party takes lot less health damage than what is typical to D&D, but health only regenerates by resting. But if you compare it to D&D games you probaly can do as much adventuring in PE than you can do in D&D, as you take much less health damage which gives you ability continue your journey to that point where you would have used all you healing spell in D&D and would also be forced to sleep. Biggest difference is that you don't need healers in your party to survive in that point.

 

So with out playing game with PE's system it is impossble to say if it's approach is better or worse than D&D. Sawyer said that they choose this approach because healing magic and instaneous healing herbs/salves/potions cause problems from story and world point of view, like why people outside of party don't use them or how you write world intresting where people don't die from diseases, accidents, etc.. Like in BG why PC character didn't bring Gorion to Candelkeep, Beregost or Friendly Arm's Inn to be resurrected, but instead left his corpse to rotten in woods.

[motorizer]

 

Well, if you successfully sneak past an enemy and get experience for that, you probably shouldn't be able to go back and kill them for more experience, and "objective" experience solves that issue pretty nicely.

Or whatever magical line your party just snuck past that awarded experience could also flag the mook as unkillable / no xp.

 

Your example is what I call getting lost in the minutia (not you the poster). They are so worried about improbable one-offs (sneaking past then going back to kill, who the hell does that? I know, I know, EVERYONE will claim they do just that) that the whole system suffers for it, imo.

 

I'm hoping the xp won't be for sneaking past an imaginary line, or for avoiding or fighting a group of enemies, but for actually achieving whatever it is you set out to do.

If the quest is to rescue someone then the xp should be for rescuing them IMO

[Amentep]

 

Well, if you successfully sneak past an enemy and get experience for that, you probably shouldn't be able to go back and kill them for more experience, and "objective" experience solves that issue pretty nicely.

Or whatever magical line your party just snuck past that awarded experience could also flag the mook as unkillable / no xp.

 

Your example is what I call getting lost in the minutia (not you the poster). They are so worried about improbable one-offs (sneaking past then going back to kill, who the hell does that? I know, I know, EVERYONE will claim they do just that) that the whole system suffers for it, imo.

 

 

What's easier to program, a magical line that represents every opportunity to sneak past, every dialogue trigger that satisfies diplomatic solutions and every combat solution...

 

...or to make the thing a quest and give quest XP?

 

Seems like what you're asking is a very inefficient way to deal with giving XP solely for the benefit of getting 2 XP with every goblin you smite.

 

(I never went back and killed characters I snuck past in BG, though - because I never snuck past them.  BG really only rewarded combat.  Not that that's a bad thing either, I liked BG.  But I'm not put out that Obs is doing something different.)

[Lady Evenstar]

 

So if a party member gets injured, you need to trudge back to town or a campsite to rest because you lack other healing choices? Or reload ...  Because limiting the player to a single choice is deep gameplay? I could understand preferring herbal/medicinal remedies to magical ones, but inflicting one-size-fits-all punitive tedium on the player after every difficult battle just sounds like poor design.  There must be something I'm missing, at least I hope so.

 

But it's not your only choice. You can continue on with that injured party member. Alternatively, you could have prepared yourself better before the encounter and/or made better tactical decisions during said encounter. 

 

In 99% of every other game you would just chug a potion/cast heal and continue on. Fun!

 

So you suggest that the game be easy enough that continuing on with injured party members would be a viable choice and that tactics should be available that would allow you to defeat encounters without your party taking any injuries?  If not, how are the choices you offer meaningful ones?

 

And, yes, in this case the approach taken by the 99% sounds more fun than the lack of choice available in Project Eternity. When remedies are available the player can be presented with a variety of choices. Do I use the relatively inexpensive but slow-acting herbal pack that may suffice if I'm careful not to bite off more than I can chew before it's had time to work? Do I have the caster expend mana that they may need later in order to heal a party member now? Do I use the high-cost instant-heal potion and risk not having it when i may need it more?  How is the Project Eternity approach more interesting/fun?

 

The Infinity Engine games had healing spells but healers were limited in how many they could memorize so you were always weighing who to heal and for how much.  Similarly, you needed to ration available potions--and decide how much inventory space you wanted to devote to them. Again, how in your opinion will fewer choices make the game more fun?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Ahhh butthurt, the perfect thing for a slow Monday.

 

[motorizer]

 

I don't see why picking up coins is so bad. It's so standard, it hardly seems worth worrying about.

 

I also love crafting a la Skyrim (modded).

 

I disagree with reloading for losing fair fights. I get around this by not reloading after losing fair fights. No bloody coding required.

 

The problem is that most games of this type can't be played enjoyably without reloading after losing a fair fight.

 

Suppose you have a party-based cRPG with permadeath.

 

Further suppose that it's a reasonably difficult game. I.e., you can get party members killed in fair fights, even if you're a reasonably competent player.

 

Now, suppose a party member does get killed. 

 

The result is that your party is materially weakened. This means that if all else remains the same, you will be more likely to lose more party members in further fights. This creates a feedback circle, with difficulty rising exponentially after every loss. With the difficulty assumption above, this makes it extremely unlikely you'll even be able to complete the game. If you lost one party member, you're more likely to lose a second one, more likely than that to lose a third, fourth, fifth, and last. Unless you magically upgrade your gaming skills so much you'll be able to make up for the loss with that. Which is unlikely. Game over.

 

To break this cycle, you need some way to make up that loss. Options are:

• Resurrection magic. This is IMO worse than stunned-and-get-up, since it nerfs death itself – what should be if not the biggest penalty for failure in the game, at least one of the biggest.
• Magic resupply of (near) equivalently powerful replacement party members. E.g. an adventurers' hall where you can hire another meat shield of more or less the same level, ad infinitum.
• Level scaling. Joy and happiness.

In my opinion, none of these options are particularly attractive. Sure, it's unrealistic to have people beat up to incapacitation only to get up and prance around merrily afterwards, but from where I'm at none of the others are any more realistic – nor, IMO more importantly, do they make for any more enjoyable gameplay. 

 

I quite like PE's current approach to this – characters that are beat up badly enough become maimed, which significantly reduces their effectiveness until they get some medical attention that's more sophisticated than you get in the field and presumably costs money. That's enough to motivate you not to get them carelessly beaten up, but not so severe that it'd be an automatic reload trigger.

 

I'm all for hardcore modes with permadeath, though. That can add to the replay value a great deal. But with that you know what you're getting when going in.

 

Don't believe me? Then I challenge you to play Temple of Elemental Evil from level 1 through 3, not in Ironman mode, without reloading after losing a fair fight. It can be done, but it's sure as hell not my idea of fun.

 

I don't want a game where your party can't die...and I doubly don't want a game where they can be resurrected...I'm hoping the health/stamina system of P:E will allow characters to fall and get up without actually being immortal.. a sort of middle ground.

It should be possible for them to die permanently, but it should be feasible to complete the game without it happening if you are careful.

Edited October 14, 2013 by motorizer

[Amentep]

 

 

So if a party member gets injured, you need to trudge back to town or a campsite to rest because you lack other healing choices? Or reload ...  Because limiting the player to a single choice is deep gameplay? I could understand preferring herbal/medicinal remedies to magical ones, but inflicting one-size-fits-all punitive tedium on the player after every difficult battle just sounds like poor design.  There must be something I'm missing, at least I hope so.

 

But it's not your only choice. You can continue on with that injured party member. Alternatively, you could have prepared yourself better before the encounter and/or made better tactical decisions during said encounter. 

 

In 99% of every other game you would just chug a potion/cast heal and continue on. Fun!

 

So you suggest that the game be easy enough that continuing on with injured party members would be a viable choice and that tactics should be available that would allow you to defeat encounters without your party taking any injuries?  If not, how are the choices you offer meaningful ones?

 

And, yes, in this case the approach taken by the 99% sounds more fun than the lack of choice available in Project Eternity. When remedies are available the player can be presented with a variety of choices. Do I use the relatively inexpensive but slow-acting herbal pack that may suffice if I'm careful not to bite off more than I can chew before it's had time to work? Do I have the caster expend mana that they may need later in order to heal a party member now? Do I use the high-cost instant-heal potion and risk not having it when i may need it more?  How is the Project Eternity approach more interesting/fun?

 

The Infinity Engine games had healing spells but healers were limited in how many they could memorize so you were always weighing who to heal and for how much.  Similarly, you needed to ration available potions--and decide how much inventory space you wanted to devote to them. Again, how in your opinion will fewer choices make the game more fun?

 

 

There are two resources for combat, health and stamina IIRC.  From what I understand stamina acts more akin to HP in the D&D setting, it goes down quickly and recovers naturally but can be recovered by potions.  Health is a smaller pool and is harder to take down but harder to get back up without resting too.  Also, IIRC some character will favor fighting injured (like the Monk).

 

But all of this is preliminary information and they've said before its subject to change as they test it for "fun".

[Gfted1]

I'm hoping the xp won't be for sneaking past an imaginary line, or for avoiding or fighting a group of enemies, but for actually achieving whatever it is you set out to do.

If the quest is to rescue someone then the xp should be for rescuing them IMO

I think the problem with that method is that its all or nothing. If you aren't awarded any xp until you complete the quest/objective then you could find yourself under leveled. Quest xp should be doled out as you hit milestones, imo.

 

 

What's easier to program, a magical line that represents every opportunity to sneak past, every dialogue trigger that satisfies diplomatic solutions and every combat solution...

 

...or to make the thing a quest and give quest XP?

No idea, Im not a programmer. If ease of coding was the objective then that's sad.

 

I wonder how it will work. Surely (yeah, I called you Shirley ) not all six members are going to be able to sneak by everything. So will this mythical player only play solo? What happens if you sneak 2 guys past but the third fails? OMG, xp was given away for free! Release the hounds!

 

It should be possible for them to die permanently, but it should be feasible to complete the game without it happening if you are careful.

Im pretty sure one of the difficulty levels lets characters permanently die.

[Lady Evenstar]

 

 

 

So if a party member gets injured, you need to trudge back to town or a campsite to rest because you lack other healing choices? Or reload ...  Because limiting the player to a single choice is deep gameplay? I could understand preferring herbal/medicinal remedies to magical ones, but inflicting one-size-fits-all punitive tedium on the player after every difficult battle just sounds like poor design.  There must be something I'm missing, at least I hope so.

 

But it's not your only choice. You can continue on with that injured party member. Alternatively, you could have prepared yourself better before the encounter and/or made better tactical decisions during said encounter. 

 

In 99% of every other game you would just chug a potion/cast heal and continue on. Fun!

 

So you suggest that the game be easy enough that continuing on with injured party members would be a viable choice and that tactics should be available that would allow you to defeat encounters without your party taking any injuries?  If not, how are the choices you offer meaningful ones?

 

And, yes, in this case the approach taken by the 99% sounds more fun than the lack of choice available in Project Eternity. When remedies are available the player can be presented with a variety of choices. Do I use the relatively inexpensive but slow-acting herbal pack that may suffice if I'm careful not to bite off more than I can chew before it's had time to work? Do I have the caster expend mana that they may need later in order to heal a party member now? Do I use the high-cost instant-heal potion and risk not having it when i may need it more?  How is the Project Eternity approach more interesting/fun?

 

The Infinity Engine games had healing spells but healers were limited in how many they could memorize so you were always weighing who to heal and for how much.  Similarly, you needed to ration available potions--and decide how much inventory space you wanted to devote to them. Again, how in your opinion will fewer choices make the game more fun?

 

 

There are two resources for combat, health and stamina IIRC.  From what I understand stamina acts more akin to HP in the D&D setting, it goes down quickly and recovers naturally but can be recovered by potions.  Health is a smaller pool and is harder to take down but harder to get back up without resting too.  Also, IIRC some character will favor fighting injured (like the Monk).

 

But all of this is preliminary information and they've said before its subject to change as they test it for "fun".

 

So healing will be available for routine injuries? It's only when characters experience near death that you'll need to go back to town? That doesn't sound nearly as onerous. I'm also glad to hear that they intend to test the system for enjoyability. I always worry with Obsidian that they'll be seduced by the "righteousness" of their ideas and pay insufficient attention to how the player experiences them.  :D

[Amentep]

What's easier to program, a magical line that represents every opportunity to sneak past, every dialogue trigger that satisfies diplomatic solutions and every combat solution...

 

...or to make the thing a quest and give quest XP?

No idea, Im not a programmer. If ease of coding was the objective then that's sad.

 

I wonder how it will work. Surely (yeah, I called you Shirley ) not all six members are going to be able to sneak by everything. So will this mythical player only play solo? What happens if you sneak 2 guys past but the third fails? OMG, xp was given away for free! Release the hounds!

 

 

Why is it sad?  Which is easier to debug? 100000000000 lines of code or 10 that do the same thing?

 

I'm not sure what the second part of your statement is about.  In your example of the magic line, yes all 6 would have to sneak past to get the XP (otherwise they'd get combat XP) which is part of why its more complex to handle.

 

In the quest scenario the quest isn't going to be "Kill gnolls" or "sneak past gnolls" it might be "free the prisoners from the Gnolls" and it doesn't care if you kill them, sneak past them, barter with them, diplomat them or what.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if a party member gets injured, you need to trudge back to town or a campsite to rest because you lack other healing choices? Or reload ...  Because limiting the player to a single choice is deep gameplay? I could understand preferring herbal/medicinal remedies to magical ones, but inflicting one-size-fits-all punitive tedium on the player after every difficult battle just sounds like poor design.  There must be something I'm missing, at least I hope so.

 

But it's not your only choice. You can continue on with that injured party member. Alternatively, you could have prepared yourself better before the encounter and/or made better tactical decisions during said encounter. 

 

In 99% of every other game you would just chug a potion/cast heal and continue on. Fun!

 

So you suggest that the game be easy enough that continuing on with injured party members would be a viable choice and that tactics should be available that would allow you to defeat encounters without your party taking any injuries?  If not, how are the choices you offer meaningful ones?

 

And, yes, in this case the approach taken by the 99% sounds more fun than the lack of choice available in Project Eternity. When remedies are available the player can be presented with a variety of choices. Do I use the relatively inexpensive but slow-acting herbal pack that may suffice if I'm careful not to bite off more than I can chew before it's had time to work? Do I have the caster expend mana that they may need later in order to heal a party member now? Do I use the high-cost instant-heal potion and risk not having it when i may need it more?  How is the Project Eternity approach more interesting/fun?

 

The Infinity Engine games had healing spells but healers were limited in how many they could memorize so you were always weighing who to heal and for how much.  Similarly, you needed to ration available potions--and decide how much inventory space you wanted to devote to them. Again, how in your opinion will fewer choices make the game more fun?

 

 

There are two resources for combat, health and stamina IIRC.  From what I understand stamina acts more akin to HP in the D&D setting, it goes down quickly and recovers naturally but can be recovered by potions.  Health is a smaller pool and is harder to take down but harder to get back up without resting too.  Also, IIRC some character will favor fighting injured (like the Monk).

 

But all of this is preliminary information and they've said before its subject to change as they test it for "fun".

 

So healing will be available for routine injuries? It's only when characters experience near death that you'll need to go back to town? That doesn't sound nearly as onerous. I'm also glad to hear that they intend to test the system for enjoyability. I always worry with Obsidian that they'll be seduced by the "righteousness" of their ideas and pay insufficient attention to how the player experiences them.  :D

 

 

It won't be routine injuries, it'll be stamina. 

 

This is an example based on my understanding, not an example explicitly from Obsidian, but as I understand it you might have 100 stamina but 10 HP; hits that are dodged or deflected or absorbed by armor my drain stamina, and those that get past would do damage to HP.  But the theory is based on their plan, someone with 100 stamina and 10 HP would be just as viable as 100 stamina and 8 HP.  You might start looking for a resting place when you get to 3-4 HP, dependent on how much HP is getting drained per character per battle.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Amentep

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

In the quest scenario the quest isn't going to be "Kill gnolls" or "sneak past gnolls" it might be "free the prisoners from the Gnolls" and it doesn't care if you kill them, sneak past them, barter with them, diplomat them or what.

I wonder if Bruce will now request the option to romance the gnolls to death.

[Gfted1]

So healing will be available for routine injuries?

Healing is not available for any level of injury, except resting, which fixes everything including maiming.

[Gfted1]

I'm not sure what the second part of your statement is about.  In your example of the magic line, yes all 6 would have to sneak past to get the XP (otherwise they'd get combat XP) which is part of why its more complex to handle.

It means you could degeneratively game the system by sneaking your top sneaker by the magical line and nobody else.

 

In the quest scenario the quest isn't going to be "Kill gnolls" or "sneak past gnolls" it might be "free the prisoners from the Gnolls" and it doesn't care if you kill them, sneak past them, barter with them, diplomat them or what.

Sure, could be anything for all we know.

 

It won't be routine injuries, it'll be stamina. 

 

This is an example based on my understanding, not an example explicitly from Obsidian, but as I understand it you might have 100 stamina but 10 HP; hits that are dodged or deflected or absorbed by armor my drain stamina, and those that get past would do damage to HP.  But the theory is based on their plan, someone with 100 stamina and 10 HP would be just as viable as 100 stamina and 8 HP.  You might start looking for a resting place when you get to 3-4 HP, dependent on how much HP is getting drained per character per battle.

That's not how I understand it. I though it was: All successful attacks against the characters will do simultaneous damage to both Stamina and Health 100% of the time. The damage is then split into some unknown ratio like 3:1 so no matter what, Health always takes damage.

[Amentep]

 

In the quest scenario the quest isn't going to be "Kill gnolls" or "sneak past gnolls" it might be "free the prisoners from the Gnolls" and it doesn't care if you kill them, sneak past them, barter with them, diplomat them or what.

I wonder if Bruce will now request the option to romance the gnolls to death.

 

 

You see a fortress, manned by gnolls. They have taken several prisoners you need to free. Do you

1. Kill all gnolls, free the prisoners, bathe in their blood (blood of the gnolls, not the prisoner - got to get that right or else it'll be awkward)
2. Sneak past gnolls, free the prisoners and try to sneak back out (and hope none of the prisoners are Naibor the Clumsy Oaf with a metal bucket)
3. look for secret passages into the fortress, free the prisoners and sneak back out (assuming it exists otherwise your just wandering around groping the bare rocks around the fortress and looking stupid)
4. barter with the gnolls for their prisoners (hope you have a large enough "kibble" stock)
5. bring forth all of your diplomatic skills to convince the gnolls the prisoners are weapons of mass destruction and you are a UN inspector here to disarm the WMDs and take them for proper disposal
6. ravish the gnolls, then free the prisoners as they sleep after you fulfilled all their wildest sexual fantasies.  Each. And. Every. One. (ten weeks later, you find the prisoners have freed themselves and filed a complaint with your quest giver over having to overhear your gnoll activites every day and night without pause).

[PrimeJunta]

 

Don't believe me? Then I challenge you to play Temple of Elemental Evil from level 1 through 3, not in Ironman mode, without reloading after losing a fair fight. It can be done, but it's sure as hell not my idea of fun.

 

I've done this many times.. including clearing Moathouse on Ironman. TBH, not playing TOEE on Ironman would be anti-fun for me. There is no tension otherwise. 

 

The only problem with TOEE Ironman is how buggy the game is.

 

Impressive. Do you also enjoy hitting yourself in the nuts repeatedly with a brick?

[Amentep]

That's not how I understand it. I though it was: All successful attacks against the characters will do simultaneous damage to both Stamina and Health 100% of the time. The damage is then split into some unknown ratio like 3:1 so no matter what, Health always takes damage.

 

 

Could be, but I thought that was only the case if the attack overcomes the damage threshold?

[PrimeJunta]

Oh joy. The waah-no-quest-XP-degenrashun "discussion" again. This place is a barrel of laughs.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Don't believe me? Then I challenge you to play Temple of Elemental Evil from level 1 through 3, not in Ironman mode, without reloading after losing a fair fight. It can be done, but it's sure as hell not my idea of fun.

 

I've done this many times.. including clearing Moathouse on Ironman. TBH, not playing TOEE on Ironman would be anti-fun for me. There is no tension otherwise. 

 

The only problem with TOEE Ironman is how buggy the game is.

 

Impressive. Do you also enjoy hitting yourself in the nuts repeatedly with a brick?

 

Yes.

 

Oh joy. The waah-no-quest-XP-degenrashun "discussion" again. This place is a barrel of laughs.

 

Just light up a fatty and enjoy the butthurt.

Edited October 14, 2013 by KaineParker

[Gfted1]

Could be, but I thought that was only the case if the attack overcomes the damage threshold?

If the attack does not overcome the DT then no damage would be taken at all, right?

 

@PJ and KP: You guys remind me of this clip;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNkp4QF3we8

You so desperately need attention that you reply in threads just to complain about other replies.

 

[Amentep]

 

Could be, but I thought that was only the case if the attack overcomes the damage threshold?

If the attack does not overcome the DT then no damage would be taken at all, right?

 

Right but I thought that anything other than an outright miss would still drain stamina. But I may have misunderstood!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

@PJ and KP: You guys remind me of this clip;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNkp4QF3we8

You so desperately need attention that you reply in threads just to complain about other replies.

Can't speak for Prime, but I more enjoy reading the butthurt. 'Tis a bit funny to see people still whining about something a year later.

Edited October 14, 2013 by KaineParker

[PrimeJunta]

I love you too, Gfted1. :kiss kiss: