Update #65: Ciphers

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

Does soul whip work with ranged weapons as well? i wanna shoot some soul bullets. Maybe with a feat/talent choice perhaps?

 

It does.

 

I hope this isn't a mechanic for all classes. It would stink to have to make my mage stab people to power up his spells.

 

 

It isn't.  The "traditional" casters (wizards, druids, priests) all have per-rest and per-encounter spellcasting mechanics that share aspects of 3.x and 4E.

 

 

Soul Whip (Modal) - At close range, the cipher's weapons generate fields of parasitic energy that lash out at a target's soul. The Soul Whip mode reduces the amount of damage caused, but each successful hit briefly lowers the target's Psyche defense and generates Focus for the cipher (attacks Psyche).

Hullo.
There's one thing I'm curious about.

The cipher needs to successfully hit (grazes don't count) his target with the weapon, overcoming Deflection first, for the Soul Whip Psyche attack to take place, right?

 

Yes, though I can't remember if Grazes count or not for Soul Whip.  Grazes may only give a proportionally diminished amount of Focus.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I do have some questions about the lore though. Will it be expanded upon why these stones were broken? It seems like a lot of effort for no reason. And secondly, what's the relationship between psyche and soul, because they are used almost interchangeably in this update.

 

It wasn't the stones in the picture, specifically, but similar (and smaller) stones that farmers knocked over and dragged out of a field to make it more suitable for plowing.

 

Capital-P Psyche is a defense stat, similar to the Will save in D&D 3.X.  However, the relationship between lowercase-p psyche and soul is a complex one.  Animancers believe that both physical aspects of the body (including the brain) and the energy of the soul contribute to perception, cognition, memory, and personality.  Deficiencies or limitations in one cannot be overcome by the other.  "Mind" and "soul" are often used interchangeably, but "brain" and "soul" are not.

[Valorian]

 

Yes, though I can't remember if Grazes count or not for Soul Whip.  Grazes may only give a proportionally diminished amount of Focus.

Hm. Is it a general rule that on-hit effects get triggered on grazes as well? In a balanced attack vs deflection scenario, that's 95% of attacks. Could be problematic for more powerful on-hit effects such as stun etc.

[morrow1nd]

 The fact that they need to fight with a weapon (at close range) to charge their class resource is what turns me off about them

 

 

 

The fact that they need to fight with a weapon (at close range) to charge their class resource is what turns me off about them

 

Yeah, it sounds a little too similar to the Monk class.

 

 

 

 

 

The fact that they need to fight with a weapon (at close range) to charge their class resource is what turns me off about them

 

Yeah, it sounds a little too similar to the Monk class.

 

I hope this isn't a mechanic for all classes. It would stink to have to make my mage stab people to power up his spells.

 

 

 

Yeah, I was hoping for some kind of psionic nuker or something

 

Leave the melee to the peasants

 

I feel you guys  .. Really i was expecting a psionic mage/sorceror type. Monk-Wound good idea, Melee-Focus for a caster oriented class turns me off besides dont we have already a priest class ? ( which you can play as offensive hybrid melee/caster as well )

 

Could u guys at least allow us to specialize in pure caster Cipher ? which we can choose from the start for example Pysche Cipher ( Pure caster ) or Soul Cipher ( The hybrid -.-' )

 

Othwerwise we got only wizard ( since there is no sorceror )

 

Conclusion :  :'( 

Edited October 2, 2013 by morrow1nd

[morrow1nd]

The Sad Panda song for you Mr. Josh  :'(

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDCLjNsWpHY

Edited October 2, 2013 by morrow1nd

[rjshae]

 

Does soul whip work with ranged weapons as well? i wanna shoot some soul bullets. Maybe with a feat/talent choice perhaps?

 

It does.

 

To me that does make a huge difference. Plus you have the fact that the Monk powers up by being hit, while the cipher powers up by doing the hitting: these call for quite different battlefield tactics. For example, you could send the cipher after wimpy opponents with poor deflection bonuses or use reach/ranged weapons, whereas you probably want the monk to mix it up in close combat with enemies who can dish it out.

[Commitment Tissues]

This update was surprisingly disappointing. I assumed that the cipher would be a more specialised or nuanced version of an enchanter (even though I was already aware it would be close range based on previous comments). But what we have here seems to be a class with some arpg-like resource building mechanic ("focus") and nukes by another name. You can call it Ectopsychic Echo and write lots of fluff about soul/mind control or what have you but if it functions like chain lighting then all you have at the end of the day is just some boring nuker. Don't tell me 95% of the spells and spell like abilities in this game are just generic damage attacks with some weak added status effects here and there?

 

JE Sawyer can you honestly say that these classes aren't going to be made boring to play for the sake of balance? (in a single player game no less)

 

 

I used to enjoy using status effects and non damage spells to fight. Figuring out how to kill a seemingly insurmountable enemy with unusual combinations of abilities is one of the funnest aspects to rpg's, and rather peculiar to the genre. Sometimes it was overpowered sometimes underpowered, is that really such an awful thing Sawyer? I really don't want to play another awful modern "rpg" which removes (streamlines) stats and forces you to spam very similar damage spells the entire game.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Commitment Tissues

[teknoman2]

 

Hm. Is it a general rule that on-hit effects get triggered on grazes as well? In a balanced attack vs deflection scenario, that's 95% of attacks. Could be problematic for more powerful on-hit effects such as stun etc.

 

here's a little suggestion: since the aura of the weapon does not do anything additional to the attack, other than build focus on hit, count the attack as two separate attacks. one with the weapon that compares to the deflection stat to indicate a hit or graze, and one with the energy that compares to psyche stat for the purpose of hit or graze. so you can do a graze with the weapon on a fighter, but get a hit with the purple aura and gain focus

[J.E. Sawyer]

You can call it Ectopsychic Echo and write lots of fluff about soul/mind control or what have you but if it functions like chain lighting then all you have at the end of the day is just some boring nuker.

 

JE Sawyer can you honestly say that these classes aren't going to be made boring to play for the sake of balance? (in a single player game no less)

 

It doesn't function like chain lightning.

 

Yeah, I can honestly say that the classes aren't going to be made boring to play for the sake of balance.

 

Their Focus mechanic wasn't ARPG-inspired at all.  It was inspired by the common A/D&D power point resource that a lot of psionics-oriented classes have and the melee flavor of the soulknife class.

[Quadrone]

Nice update, please more of this! Can never get enough of skill/spell/class descriptions.

 

Oh, and please do the Barbarian next, I urgently need to know if my Barbarian will still be able to properly go BERSERKER!! in PE.

 

Concerning the Vithrack design:

I like it a lot. Unlike what others suggest I prefer the more humanoid approach, as it gives it a more weird, lanky/slender apperance. Love those fingers!

Only thing I might change up are those "hair lumps" at the back of its head, they look kinda artificial. How about some really long, black, thick, wirery hairs. Somehing like backwards antenae bound into a ponytail.

[morrow1nd]

 

You can call it Ectopsychic Echo and write lots of fluff about soul/mind control or what have you but if it functions like chain lighting then all you have at the end of the day is just some boring nuker.

 

JE Sawyer can you honestly say that these classes aren't going to be made boring to play for the sake of balance? (in a single player game no less)

 

It doesn't function like chain lightning.

 

Yeah, I can honestly say that the classes aren't going to be made boring to play for the sake of balance.

 

Their Focus mechanic wasn't ARPG-inspired at all.  It was inspired by the common A/D&D power point resource that a lot of psionics-oriented classes have and the melee flavor of the soulknife class.

 

 

too much melee flavor

 

Cant we have a version of Cipher which is more 'Psion/Wilder' oriented ? is it possible ? 

Edited October 2, 2013 by morrow1nd

[Commitment Tissues]

 

You can call it Ectopsychic Echo and write lots of fluff about soul/mind control or what have you but if it functions like chain lighting then all you have at the end of the day is just some boring nuker.

 

JE Sawyer can you honestly say that these classes aren't going to be made boring to play for the sake of balance? (in a single player game no less)

 

It doesn't function like chain lightning.

 

Yeah, I can honestly say that the classes aren't going to be made boring to play for the sake of balance.

 

Their Focus mechanic wasn't ARPG-inspired at all.  It was inspired by the common A/D&D power point resource that a lot of psionics-oriented classes have and the melee flavor of the soulknife class.

 

 

Okay, I'll try to keep the faith. I suppose nothing will be clear until gameplay footage is released.

[J.E. Sawyer]

too much melee flavor

 

Cant we have a version of Cipher which is more 'Psion/Wilder' oriented ? is it possible ? 

 

No.  We have three "full" caster classes that can avoid melee entirely if you choose to do so (wizard, priest, druid).  I'm sorry that you don't like the style of the cipher, but I designed the class to be distinctly different from the other casters in terms of managing their power resource.  And again: ciphers do not have to enter melee to use Soul Whip.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

too much melee flavor

 

Cant we have a version of Cipher which is more 'Psion/Wilder' oriented ? is it possible ? 

 

No.  We have three "full" caster classes that can avoid melee entirely if you choose to do so (wizard, priest, druid).  I'm sorry that you don't like the style of the cipher, but I designed the class to be distinctly different from the other casters in terms of managing their power resource.  And again: ciphers do not have to enter melee to use Soul Whip.

 

 

I think that Soul Whip on ranged weapons largely eliminates the "too much melee" problem, but perhaps you should also consider a talent which gives a small, but not insignificant amount of automatic focus generation, kinda like fighter ability with stamina?

 

Another quick question: as I understand, Soul Whip's supposed to be a modal ability, not an always-on, passive sort of thing. Is there an upside to turning it off? Say, alternate modal abilities which offer different bonuses, but are mutually exclusive with SW, or some kind of uber-attack which has huge payoff, but requires a large amount of focus to activate, and stops you from using SW for a period of time?

Edited October 2, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[J.E. Sawyer]

Okay, I'll try to keep the faith. I suppose nothing will be clear until gameplay footage is released.

 

Well, to be honest, the first footage we show is likely to be more whiz-bang than subtle, Fireballs and so on rather than Minor Grimoire Imprint or Arcane Reflection.

 

But yeah, we are implementing more oddball spells.  The oddball spells take longer to implement and have about a 50% viability rate.  Some of them just wind up being bad spells (not effective or confusing/impractical to use) and have to be revised or thrown out.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Another quick question: as I understand, Soul Whip's supposed to be a modal ability, not an always-on, passive sort of thing. Is there an upside to turning it off?

 

The main upside to turning off Soul Whip is that you do full (normal) damage.  When Soul Whip is active, your weapon-based damage is reduced.

[forgottenlor]

 

too much melee flavor

 

Cant we have a version of Cipher which is more 'Psion/Wilder' oriented ? is it possible ? 

 

No.  We have three "full" caster classes that can avoid melee entirely if you choose to do so (wizard, priest, druid).  I'm sorry that you don't like the style of the cipher, but I designed the class to be distinctly different from the other casters in terms of managing their power resource.  And again: ciphers do not have to enter melee to use Soul Whip.

 

 

I think people's main concern maybe is that in D&D the druid and cleric are sort of in between a fighter and mage. Both are competent in melee and not overly potent as spell casters. Whereas in D&D the sorcerer presented a real alternative. I think people (myself included) saw the cypher as a possible alternative to a mage, whereas they didn't expect the cleric or druid to be able to do this. Perhaps we know too little about the other classes. Can one build a cleric or druid as a weakling caster and make the most out of their class ? (which was not really so in D & D as you "wasted" the good armour, BAB, and hit dice of the cleric or druid without getting much in return).

[J.E. Sawyer]

I think people's main concern maybe is that in D&D the druid and cleric are sort of in between a fighter and mage. Both are competent in melee and not overly potent as spell casters.

 

I disagree.  Druids and clerics are both really powerful spellcasters in 3.X.  That they have good melee capability on top of that is icing on the cake.

 

I would say that our (PE) priests have shifted away from the original concept of them being melee/caster hybrids.  They are closer-range casters than wizards, but they aren't particularly strong in melee (paladins take on the role of close-combat support).  Their spells are designed to be on par with wizards' in overall power, but they have a different flavor and trend differently.  E.g., wizards have some nice personal buffs but virtually no area buffs.  Priests have a few personal buffs, but have a lot of huge AoE buffs.

 

When druids are in their spirit forms, they can be powerful melee opponents, but that is a limited-use ability.  They're still primarily casters.

[forgottenlor]

It depends how you look at it. The cleric has no devestating area of effect spells until high level. The druid's magic damage output is limited compared to the mage. They do get healing magic and good summons in return. However, you don't take either of them do deal with masses of enemies.

 

edit:Didn't see all of your response initially for some reason. Now that I know how clerics and druids work, I am more pleased that cyphers work as warrior/mages, since Druids and Clerics are filling that role less than in D&D

Edited October 2, 2013 by forgottenlor

[Azure79]

Sounds pretty awesome. I usually go for a warrior type on my first playthrough since I'm into martial arts and strength training in my actual life, but I may play Cipher on my first playthrough. 

 

I find as I grow older, I enjoy the paths of intrigue and cleverness to solve problems rather than brute force. In games that is. I wish could brute force my way through certain parts of my life. 

[Valorian]

 

 

Hm. Is it a general rule that on-hit effects get triggered on grazes as well? In a balanced attack vs deflection scenario, that's 95% of attacks. Could be problematic for more powerful on-hit effects such as stun etc.

here's a little suggestion: since the aura of the weapon does not do anything additional to the attack, other than build focus on hit, count the attack as two separate attacks. one with the weapon that compares to the deflection stat to indicate a hit or graze, and one with the energy that compares to psyche stat for the purpose of hit or graze. so you can do a graze with the weapon on a fighter, but get a hit with the purple aura and gain focus

 

 

 

They are indeed counted as two separate attacks (the first one is against deflection, the second against psyche).

But, in a situation where the weapon is enhanced like that and drains, stuns, debilitates or whatever else, I would prefer that failing to strike the target with a normal/critical hit precludes the possibility of the effect applying. In the case of a successful attack against deflection, the target gets to make a defense roll (psyche or fortitude) against the effect to see to what degree the effect applies, if at all.

 

Anyway, such effects on claws, fangs or skeletal hands are what makes monsters unique challenges so I'd like it to be used abundantly.

 

Also, Josh twitted* a few days ago that he's designing 50+ unique weapons, which is one of his favorite things to do.

 

*tweeted :D

Edited October 2, 2013 by Valorian

[NerdBoner]

 

Another quick question: as I understand, Soul Whip's supposed to be a modal ability, not an always-on, passive sort of thing. Is there an upside to turning it off?

 

The main upside to turning off Soul Whip is that you do full (normal) damage.  When Soul Whip is active, your weapon-based damage is reduced.

 

is there a particular reason Melee damage is decreased when Soul Whip is active?

 

 

Unless your weapon becomes less tangible it should be about the same...perhaps a reduced attack rate/speed is more appropriate?

[J.E. Sawyer]

is there a particular reason Melee damage is decreased when Soul Whip is active?

 

Because the cipher is focusing more on damaging/draining the target's mind/soul than actually causing physical harm.

[bjm123]

So is the stlye sort of guerilla fighting? stiking at oponents to build up focus then retreating to range and using you abilities until you need more focus then diving back in.

[Wombat]

I would say that our (PE) priests have shifted away from the original concept of them being melee/caster hybrids.  They are closer-range casters than wizards, but they aren't particularly strong in melee (paladins take on the role of close-combat support).  Their spells are designed to be on par with wizards' in overall power, but they have a different flavor and trend differently.  E.g., wizards have some nice personal buffs but virtually no area buffs.  Priests have a few personal buffs, but have a lot of huge AoE buffs.

Nice...how to differentiate a priest from a paladin was one of my biggest questions after hearing the first concept.  Also, not entirely restricting a cipher for attacks on Psyche but also other stats (presumably to keep a certain level of tactical choices for the class) is a nice touch in this update, IMO.