Dragon Age: Inquisition

[NOK222]

 

 

You can't deflect criticism there

 

Yes we can! You-you homophobe!

[anubite]

I suppose I will say that I've never had a moment in a BioWare game where the dialog made me go, "Really, did she/he really say that just now?" So at least they can keep the quality there a cut above a lot of games. I'd say it's the content and some extent the direction - things which are hard to be critical of anyway.

[licketysplit]

I'm critical of their content for two reasons. It's kinda the same Bioware formula they've adhered to for years, and there's too much of the PC being the chosen one in their games. I'm tired of being the sole individual tasked with saving the world, continent, galaxy, whatever.

[Volourn]

L0L Anubite L0L

 

 

 

"I'm critical of their content for two reasons. It's kinda the same Bioware formula they've adhered to for years, and there's too much of the PC being the chosen one in their games. I'm tired of being the sole individual tasked with saving the world, continent, galaxy, whatever."

 

Every game is like that. Heck, PST was literally about the Chosen One. As was both FOs. Any game/story focused on the character (ie.  not multi headed monsters ala GAB) is gonna, at mininum, walk the fine line.

[Hurlshort]

We should get into a 'games as art' debate, it has been awhile since we've had one.  

 

Bioware games aren't any more or less art than almost every other game out there.  All I care about is the entertainment value, and I get that from most Bioware games.

[BruceVC]

We should get into a 'games as art' debate, it has been awhile since we've had one.  

 

Bioware games aren't any more or less art than almost every other game out there.  All I care about is the entertainment value, and I get that from most Bioware games.

 

100%, what do I always say?

 

I play games for entertainment and not inspiration. I think sometimes people take games waaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously and they get emotional about something that they really shouldn't. Get deeply upset with the war in Afghanistan if you feel strongly enough about it but not the fact that you only have 12 spells as opposed to 18

Edited August 28, 2013 by BruceVC

[licketysplit]

L0L Anubite L0L

 

 

 

"I'm critical of their content for two reasons. It's kinda the same Bioware formula they've adhered to for years, and there's too much of the PC being the chosen one in their games. I'm tired of being the sole individual tasked with saving the world, continent, galaxy, whatever."

 

Every game is like that. Heck, PST was literally about the Chosen One. As was both FOs. Any game/story focused on the character (ie.  not multi headed monsters ala GAB) is gonna, at mininum, walk the fine line.

 

Well, I like the Witcher games for a reason. And games shouldn't always prop the player up as the chosen one. It's a cliche. Imagine if that's all fantasy and scif-fi authors did. It'd be pretty boring if you ask me.

[Monte Carlo]

Just slightly O/T but my problem with Bioware dialogue isn't so much the dialogue itself but the trend towards fully voiced characters.

 

I don't know about you lot, but when I read I like to... read. I'm an adult. I don't need a bloody voiceover. Furthermore, I like to think *I* know how the character sounds. Having a voice dumped on me for forty-plus hours (if I don't like that voice, for example Alistair in DA:O) is an imposition. OTOH I could listen to Claudia Black read the telephone directory and be happy, but I digress.

 

BG2 style, i.e. the voices being used as a sort of coda for the character, was about right. A verbal signature. But bejaysus the full cinematic VO ruins the written word for me.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Monte Carlo

[alanschu]

You certainly aren't the only person, Monte, that prefers less voice.  Especially when considering the player character.

 

Though things like Kickstarter and smaller scale games are becoming more accessible and whatnot, that hopefully some of those unscratched itches some gamers have can now get some attention.

[Volourn]

"Well, I like the Witcher games for a reason. And games shouldn't always prop the player up as the chosen one."

 

HUH? The Witcher is a HUGE example of Chosen One stories. L0L

[Oerwinde]

Just slightly O/T but my problem with Bioware dialogue isn't so much the dialogue itself but the trend towards fully voiced characters.

 

I don't know about you lot, but when I read I like to... read. I'm an adult. I don't need a bloody voiceover. Furthermore, I like to think *I* know how the character sounds. Having a voice dumped on me for forty-plus hours (if I don't like that voice, for example Alistair in DA:O) is an imposition. OTOH I could listen to Claudia Black read the telephone directory and be happy, but I digress.

 

BG2 style, i.e. the voices being used as a sort of coda for the character, was about right. A verbal signature. But bejaysus the full cinematic VO ruins the written word for me.

 

I hate that subtitles in games are turned off by default and its usually the first thing I do. With Bioware's quest for the ultimate cinematic experience its gotta bug some people that people like me tend to turn on subtitles, read the dialogue, then skip the voice over to move on with the story. Games that don't let me skip the dialogue when I'm done reading tend to get pushed to the side pretty quickly, as do games with no or not very legible subtitles. There have been a few games on Xbox360 that I've put down very shortly because the subtitles weren't readable on a 27 inch TV. Dungeon Siege 3 was one of them. I was super psyched to pick up the STALKER games recently, and stopped playing like 10 minutes in because there were no subtitles.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Oerwinde

[Nepenthe]

Turns out movies have subtitles in a large part of the universe, including casa Nepenthe (even if I use ones in the original language whenever I can, it calls for a lot less concentration when I have access to both sources of input).

[Guest Slinky]

I was super psyched to pick up the STALKER games recently, and stopped playing like 10 minutes in because there were no subtitles.

What do you mean? All the conversations have subtitles, most of them don't even have voice overs? If you mean the speech outside of "conversation mode", those mostly just consist out of "get out of here stalker" and "hello" type of stuff.

[Oerwinde]

Nah, first conversation with the guy in the camp who gives you your first mission didn't have subtitles, first person after getting my mission didn't have subtitles, went in to turn them on and no option. Looked online and there was a mod to add subtitles into the game but it doesn't work with the steam version because the dev's locked out the tool they used to add them in in a patch. It wasn't so noticeable the first time I played a couple years back because I had headphones so outside noise was blocked, but now I need to crank it up to hear it over PC/Desk Fan/Kids/Wife/etc.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Oerwinde

[Guest Slinky]

Really? I could have sworn that even the first stalker had subtitles, but it has been years I've played that. Still, you really should try Call of Pripyat, that does have subtitles for sure and is the best of the three anyway.

[Oerwinde]

Turns out movies have subtitles in a large part of the universe, including casa Nepenthe (even if I use ones in the original language whenever I can, it calls for a lot less concentration when I have access to both sources of input).

 

I usually have subtitles on on movies/netflix as well, because the sound fx and music is generally like 10000x louder than the voices and I don't want to have to keep turning it up and down so I just set the volume so that the fx/music isn't jarring and that usually leaves dialogue inaudible. When I go into sound options in a game and it has the option of jacking up the voice and turning down effects and music, I want to send extra money to the developers. Transformers War For Cybertron was the only game I could play at night while the wife was sleeping because the xbox is in my bedroom, and it had options to turn the sound fx down.

[Bos_hybrid]

You certainly aren't the only person, Monte, that prefers less voice.  Especially when considering the player character.

 

Quite true.

 

I still don't get why it can't be toggled. I wasn't fond of Hawke or Mike(AP), and having an option to mute just them would be preferable.

[Guest Slinky]

 

You certainly aren't the only person, Monte, that prefers less voice.  Especially when considering the player character.

 

Quite true.

 

I still don't get why it can't be toggled. I wasn't fond of Hawke or Mike(AP), and having an option to mute just them would be preferable.

 

Simple toggle wouldn't be enough, it wouldn't look that great to me if the game still shows the player characters face during the conversations either still lip syncin even when muted, or simply standing there with a blank stare like in DA:O.

 

I would too prefer a silent player character, but that would preferably also mean the camera doesn't go anywhere near the PC's face during conversations.

[Monte Carlo]

^ Sure. But then again I'm not bothered by cutscenes and cinematics either. A beginning and end cutscene are OK for me but (a) I'm an old fart (b) I'm not really an overly-story reliant gamer.

 

But who cares? 'tis almost September, and a young man's heart turns to Rome: TW2!

[Darkpriest]

*snip*

 

The thing I notice about this is that it comes across as "Please don't make and charge me for DLC that I want.  Only make and sell DLC that I don't really find interesting."  Almost as saying "Make stuff that people don't want" as DLC.

 

*snip*

 

I'll refer to this point.

 

The art of making DLC or any additional content in so called F2P games is difficult. For example Firaxis has a good recipe when it comes to their games. Take the Civilization 5. The DLCs add some scenarios with pre-made maps, along with a civilization or two, but do not change the core mechanics, they do not add some material to the core gameplay (like special research options etc.), when they want to add something more, they go and revamp some mechanics or add a ton of content, but then it's called "an expansion", the art apparently long forgotten. For the F2P the best example i think is Valve and their business model with DotA 2... If you are not familair with it, you really should check that business model and what they've built around it.

 

As for RPGs, Bioware's RPGs... ME3 had this very unfortunate event with the Day One DLC. Not because it was Day One DLC, but because of the content of that DLC. If you make anything else than customization options, like looks + some weapon + some small trinket (like a robot dog) and put something that can change the whole playthrough, then it's ought to bring unpleasant comments as it is, what people describe as shameless money grab. Day One DLC should be something not core gameplay influencing, but at the same time incentivising pre-orders to some people, the look packs, etc. are this kind of an incentive. The companion and a different view on a whole story arc, is not... Here I will refer the Firaxis' Day One DLC to X-COM:EU. It was nothing more than some customization options, and look how many people still pre-ordered it and even later, bought it as separate content. Imagine what would happen if that Day One DLC was for example Slingshot (if you are unfamiliar, it adds a couple of narrative missions, a custom soldier and allows to grab some of the end game tech way earlier)... You might underestimate how many people are suckers for simple customizations in the looks of their avatars...

 

The good idea of DLCs is shown i think best by the Lair of The Shadow Broker to ME2 - it adds a chain of missions/quests which are completely unrelated to the main plot, they flesh out some of the background of some of your companions, and adds some lore element to previously fairly remote NPC, that is still referred here and there. If you want to add new companions and influence the main story, then for whatever's sake, make a proper expansion with a load of other stuff on top.

 

It's not about, DLC should have stuff that I do not want, but about, DLC should have stuff that should belong to DLC and not main product or full fledged expansion. The problem lies probably in the producer/designers meetings when they probably also discuss expected revenues and profits from the said "game" and they already assume, here, we will have like 3-5 DLCs, here we will add some big one to start with, so we'll get high recovery on the production before sales will drop, etc. Also, for whatever reason it seems that expansions fell out of favor... I assume it's because of the profit to amount of work ratio, when comparing DLC and expansion.

[Nepenthe]

Yyyeah, Civilization V and ME3 are F2P? What?

Also, just to bring my (usual ) contrarian opinion here, I'm willing to accept the publishers' statement that day 1 dlc is made on a separate budget and thus wouldn't exist as a part of the came (cut content or never there in the first place). I can live with that, but I'm not a mass consumer of games, probably still average 4-5 per year, so I'm not averse to parting with a bit more cash for the few games I deem worth my time... Sure, sometimes, such as with Saints Row III, when the stuff is already on the disc and I have to pay to activate it I can't help but feel fleeced, but exiled prince/stone prisoner/from ashes... totally ok with me.

[decado]

Criticisms in terms of writing are much harder to substantiate and analyze but I would pin it more on the whole choice thing than I would the quality or direction of the writing. Mass Effect 3's biggest criticism is probably that your choices up until the RGB ending scene didn't matter. Cosmetically, they mattered maybe a little bit, but not in the way maybe people were anticipating, when ME1 made its grandstand appearance.

This has always been my biggest criticism of Bioware, from the introduction of ME1 to now.  They consistently oversell the scope, depth and breadth of the "Decision Making Process" that they constantly tout as a major feature of their games.  They've been promising a lot, and they've never really delivered.  What difference does it make if you saved the Council at the end of ME1?  What difference does it make if you give the job to Udina or Anderson?  You are basically treated to different cut scenes at different points, but no real tangible assets are added to the narrative.

 

I'm not mad (sorry, butthurt) at them for failing to deliver, because honestly I don't think anybody could deliver what they were originally claiming. Designers can't create that much content.  Maybe the Wasteland 2 guys will be able to do it, but as of right now I've never seen anyone pull it off well.  

 

So the only thing I wish BW would stop doing is selling the idea when they've proven time and again they can't do it.  

[Darkpriest]

Yyyeah, Civilization V and ME3 are F2P? What?

Also, just to bring my (usual ) contrarian opinion here, I'm willing to accept the publishers' statement that day 1 dlc is made on a separate budget and thus wouldn't exist as a part of the came (cut content or never there in the first place). I can live with that, but I'm not a mass consumer of games, probably still average 4-5 per year, so I'm not averse to parting with a bit more cash for the few games I deem worth my time... Sure, sometimes, such as with Saints Row III, when the stuff is already on the disc and I have to pay to activate it I can't help but feel fleeced, but exiled prince/stone prisoner/from ashes... totally ok with me.

 

plz read, that i said that DLC or so called F2P, which does not imply that either of the two titles is F2P... I clearly differentiated later that F2P is something like DotA2, and DLC+expansiosn is something akin to Civ, XCOM, and in case of Bioware ME, DA....

Edited August 28, 2013 by Darkpriest

[NOK222]

Please excuse my earlier behavior, you see I have just quit smoking. So I tend to go off like that and attack people who criticize me. 

 

 

 

It's not about, DLC should have stuff that I do not want, but about, DLC should have stuff that should belong to DLC and not main product or full fledged expansion.

 

They always say they never cut stuff from the game to sell separately, I always say bull****. 

[alanschu]

It's not about, DLC should have stuff that I do not want

 

If the comment doesn't apply to you, then the comment doesn't apply to you.  There are people that literally have literally told me Mass Effect 3's DLC (all of it) should have been free because it was all "essential story content."  Juxtaposed with people that say we should *only* make DLC like that, because they'd rather have more story content than simply some customization stuff.

There are indeed some that would rather we release something like From Ashes as Day One DLC than simply some weapon/customization pack, simply because they like the story content and would rather get more story content.  This may be echoed among the preorder/special edition fans since it's often included as an incentive there, as well.

 

 

 

 

Sure, sometimes, such as with Saints Row III, when the stuff is already on the disc and I have to pay to activate it I can't help but feel fleeced, but exiled prince/stone prisoner/from ashes... totally ok with me.

 

A lot of it is still "this stuff is relatively new" as well.  Since some people are always going to be upset, the challenge comes in ascertaining how much frustration there is.  Although people do send mixed signals when they talk about how much they loathe DLC yet still buy it.  I always encourage people not to buy it if they aren't a fan of DLC, because saying "I really don't like DLC" while still buying it makes it more difficult to go "Do they really not like DLC, or are they hoping that if they are part of a group voice, they can get more content for less cost?"  It's similar with price increases, and when some people started to get upset at new PC games being $60 instead of $50 in the past few years.  Saying "This is too expensive" and still buying it complicates the issue.

 

 

As for the idea of stuff being cut content, from what I understand most stuff ( "expansion" or "DLC" ) often is.  Pretty much all of Tales of the Sword Coast, for example, was content that was cut from Baldur's Gate.  There's often close to as much game that ends up on the chopping block as content that actually ships with the game, with a variety of reasons motivating cuts (time being probably the most common).

Edited August 28, 2013 by alanschu