Scrolls & Wands

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Many people do not like Vancian casting because it causes Wizards to often be passive actors with very limited numbers of actions. They are often torn between the choices of expending their limited and precious resource in an overwhelming manner on an "unworthy" engagement to participate, or throwing darts if not. The problem with non-vancian systems though, is that the frequency and reproducability of spells forces the scope of their effects and potency to be reduced for terms of balance.

 

Enter the Scrolls and Wands.

 

Scrolls allow you to hold infrequently used situtational and utility spells indefinately, without sacrificing spell memorization slots for more practical, desirable, and frequently used spells. Wands allow Wizards to remain a presence on the battlefield for ordinary engagements, so that they can save their "meaningful" spells for dire engagments and scenarios for which they were intended. To step outside of the proverbial convential box, imagine a scroll that is not consumed with use, but merely has a percent chance of being destroyed.

 

My point is, that through the implementation of scrolls and wands, a spell system can be designed with maximum usefulness and originality, while preserving the utility and endurance of spellcasters. Furthermore, from a design standpoint, it is easier to create more consistent rules which limit wands and scrolls, than meticulously balancing out every detail of a spellcasting system without error.

 

So don't forget about scrolls and wands! Food for thought. Ideas? Suggestions? Critiques?

[Hormalakh]

they're already sort of doing this with the spell system. Lower level spells (over time) will become low-damage "pelting" spells while the high-level spells continue to maintain their "awsum damage/effects!" aura.

 

there's a specific attack that each wizard has (blast) that is a sort of low-damage AOE spell that they can continue to use to pelt enemies.

 

i would recommend this update:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63020-project-eternity-update-36-off-to-our-elfhomes-but-first/

Edited August 14, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Prometheus]

there's a specific attack that each wizard has (blast) that is a sort of low-damage AOE spell that they can continue to use to pelt enemies.

Blast isn't an active abillity but a passive abillity that you use every time you attack with an implement(wand, rod or scepter). See quote below

 

Implements are ranged missile weapons, effectively a traditional wizard's bow. They can attack relatively rapidly but do not do a ton of damage with an individual shot. As such, they are best used against targets that don't have a lot of DT. However, the Blast passive ability also does damage to surrounding targets in a small radius. Again, this is not a ton of damage, but if the wizard can catch a group of opponents in a tight pack, he or she can gradually soak them for a lot of collective damage.

 

Scrolls were mentioned in Update 58, so there will be scrolls in Project Eternity.

 

Labs – these alchemical tables are used to make any enchantments, as well as all alchemical consumables like potions, scrolls or figurines (which let you summon a creature that will fight for you). If you want to improve your gear or brew a potion, you need to find one of these labs.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Prometheus

[Micamo]

My problem with scrolls and wands in D&D is that they completely negate the entire point of vancian spellcasting, which is that:

 

A. Spellcasters have great power that is very limited in how often it can be applied: You have to save your spells for the critical moments.

 

B. Spells are very narrow in focus and casters have limited spells: You have to carefully choose which spells you carry around.

 

Scrolls and wands let you solve both problems by essentially throwing money at them. Got a really situational spell in your spellbook you might need? Make a scroll or two and never worry about it again. Can't cast enough healing spells in a day? Get a wand of cure light wounds and keep on truckin!

[Lephys]

^ This. I'd like it if spells and scrolls had their own set of unique effects, instead of simply being vessels for existing, already-limited-and-balanced spells within the class/ability system.

 

I dunno... to differentiate scrolls from wands (and the like), maybe they could be copies of spells, but just never be as effective as the spell itself? Or maybe have some kind of cooldown limitation between them, so they're not just a pile of free ammo outside of the numbers constraints of the Vancian (or, in the case of P:E, pseudo-Vancian) system?

 

*shrug*. Magic's a bit weird in this respect, since you'd never see a Fighter go "Aww man, I'm out of sword attacks. OH, SWEET! I CAN USE THIS WAND OF SWORD ATTACK! 8D!"

[forgottenlor]

Scrolls or wands might be interesting if they could either boost or modify spell effects. For example (using old D&D spells)

 

The Wand of Everburning Fireballs. You shoot a normal fireball, and those who survive continue to take burning damage over the next few turns.

The Wand of Thunder & Lightning. Anyone hit by a lightning bolt also has a 10% chance of being stunned.

Scroll of Swift Missles. The cooldown on magic missle is reduced.

Scroll of Deadly Elementals- Your summoned elemental is hasted and blessed.

[Lephys]

Scrolls or wands might be interesting if they could either boost or modify spell effects. For example (using old D&D spells)

 

The Wand of Everburning Fireballs. You shoot a normal fireball, and those who survive continue to take burning damage over the next few turns.

The Wand of Thunder & Lightning. Anyone hit by a lightning bolt also has a 10% chance of being stunned.

Scroll of Swift Missles. The cooldown on magic missle is reduced.

Scroll of Deadly Elementals- Your summoned elemental is hasted and blessed.

Splendid idea!

[Inarius]

Scrolls or wands might be interesting if they could either boost or modify spell effects. For example (using old D&D spells)

 

The Wand of Everburning Fireballs. You shoot a normal fireball, and those who survive continue to take burning damage over the next few turns.

The Wand of Thunder & Lightning. Anyone hit by a lightning bolt also has a 10% chance of being stunned.

Scroll of Swift Missles. The cooldown on magic missle is reduced.

Scroll of Deadly Elementals- Your summoned elemental is hasted and blessed.

I like this as an idea for how to handle wands, it makes them useful in that they enhance and even alter what a spellcaster can do on his own.

 

I would say my biggest problem with relying on scrolls and wands to cover for a mages limited spell casting ability in the IE games was it tended to be a waste of money. You were almost always better off in the long run saving up to buy better weapons and armor for your melee fighters than you were buying scrolls and wands for your mages because it was a matter of limited resources. There was only so much money in those games that you had to spread around to cover the costs of maintaining 6 characters.

 

In Neverwinter Nights on the other hand you only really had to concern yourself with maintaining your protagonist, your single companion didn't do much their own and could survive off of loot drops exclusively. This freed you up as a caster to buy more scrolls, potions and wands to use. Though amusingly enough it wasn't as necessary due to the ease of resting in the game.

[Lephys]

I would say my biggest problem with relying on scrolls and wands to cover for a mages limited spell casting ability in the IE games was it tended to be a waste of money. You were almost always better off in the long run saving up to buy better weapons and armor for your melee fighters than you were buying scrolls and wands for your mages because it was a matter of limited resources. There was only so much money in those games that you had to spread around to cover the costs of maintaining 6 characters.

Yup yup. Well, and if they controlled their finiteness with price. So, if they made them cheaper, you ended up with "Wait... I'm limited to 5 spells per day? WHAT ABOUT THIS 64-PACK OF SCROLLS OF MAGIC MISSILE I JUST GOT FOR TREE-FIDDY?!" . So then, what's the point in even having a "spells per day" limit?

 

They're kind of in a tough spot, in typical D&D implementation.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Lephys

[AGX-17]

What's wrong with the already confirmed book bashing melee for wizards?

[Micamo]

Well, my first problem with that as a fallback is that you play a Wizard to do Wizard Stuff. When you've run out of spells for the day and are stuck Not Doing Wizard Stuff, you start having fun and just start slogging through until you can rest and start being a Wizard again. It's no better a solution than the old fallback of pulling out a crossbow/throwing knives.

 

My second problem is, well... taking your spellbook and beating enemies over the head with it is just plain silly, and not the good kind of silly. At least when you're missing with crossbow bolts you have some dignity.

[J. Trudel]

Wands ? Who uses wands anyway, Harry Potter ? I would like to see staff used for a Wizard (wands are for sissies ) that would enhance his spell casting in the same way a Warrior weild a sword to enhance his fighting prowess. The idea about the added effects is great ! Some swords may actually have a similar effect. 

 

For the magic system, I think that low power spells should have unlimited uses and higher power spells should be limited. As you grow in levels, higher power spells could gradually become unlimited. 

[J. Trudel]

Well, my first problem with that as a fallback is that you play a Wizard to do Wizard Stuff. When you've run out of spells for the day and are stuck Not Doing Wizard Stuff, you start having fun and just start slogging through until you can rest and start being a Wizard again. It's no better a solution than the old fallback of pulling out a crossbow/throwing knives.

 

My second problem is, well... taking your spellbook and beating enemies over the head with it is just plain silly, and not the good kind of silly. At least when you're missing with crossbow bolts you have some dignity.

 

I don't know if it's true book bashing or just a term used to describe the unleash of raw magical energy emaning from your source of power (in this case a book) to smash your enemies. I hope it's the later. 

[Micamo]

For the magic system, I think that low power spells should have unlimited uses and higher power spells should be limited. As you grow in levels, higher power spells could gradually become unlimited.

IIRC the plan was for there to be a cooldown on each spell level (NOT on each spell), similar to the Recharge Magic variant from Unearthed Arcana, with the cooldown decreasing as you went up in level. Then at some point they dumped this system and replaced it with a standard spells/day system, for some reason.

[J. Trudel]

 

For the magic system, I think that low power spells should have unlimited uses and higher power spells should be limited. As you grow in levels, higher power spells could gradually become unlimited.

IIRC the plan was for there to be a cooldown on each spell level (NOT on each spell), similar to the Recharge Magic variant from Unearthed Arcana, with the cooldown decreasing as you went up in level. Then at some point they dumped this system and replaced it with a standard spells/day system, for some reason.

 

 

If I had a system to make, I would do an unlimited casting system. In my view of Wizards, casting is a skill (but it's not my game nor my world so I accept any views). Spell of a high-power beign somewhat risky to cast, this way a Wizard might just have the perfect spell, where the risk are well worth the effects. Sometimes the risks may as well be helpfull in some situations. 

[Lephys]

What's wrong with the already confirmed book bashing melee for wizards?

For what it's worth, I believe the effects of the Grimoire "Slam" ability were revealed to stem from the bursting release of power from within the grimoire, and not from the force of the swing. Much like a touch spell. Shocking Grasp doesn't do so much lightning damage because you poke the person REALLY hard in the face. The touch is there to deliver the magical effect.

 

 

For the magic system, I think that low power spells should have unlimited uses and higher power spells should be limited. As you grow in levels, higher power spells could gradually become unlimited.

IIRC the plan was for there to be a cooldown on each spell level (NOT on each spell), similar to the Recharge Magic variant from Unearthed Arcana, with the cooldown decreasing as you went up in level. Then at some point they dumped this system and replaced it with a standard spells/day system, for some reason.

 

I may be wrong (and I could try to find the dev quotes on this), but last I recall hearing, they did indeed drop the clock-ticky cooldowns, but still retained the levels of cast-a-bility, as it were. I'm pretty sure your lowest tier of abilities will be unlimited-use, while the next will be per-encounter, followed by per-day. So, if you get fireball at, say, Level 2, then progress to Level 5, it may go from per-day to per-encounter, since it's a much simpler spell relative to your level/capabilities with magic at that point. If you get to level 10, it might even become unlimited use.

 

Different spells could still shift in different ways (everything won't necessarily be "if you get 3 levels above this, drop it down a tier"), for balance's sake. And, regarding the Vancian "ammo" aspect, I believe that, instead of the D&D method (for Wizards, at least) of having access to only the specific spells you've prepared, according to the number you may prepare for the day, I believe you essentially have access to a finite number of spells from a given set (as dictated by your grimoire?). In other words, if you've got 10 LvL-5 spells in your grimoire (to use D&D spell levels as an example, since I have no idea exactly how P:E will treat them), and you can cast 6 LvL-5 spells per day, then you can cast ANY of the 10 spells at any time, until you've cast 6 of them (6 of the same spell, or 6 different ones, or any combo there-in), at which point you've exhausted your LvL-5 spell ammo for the day.

 

And, possibly, you can switch grimoires in combat much like Fighters would switch weapons, to change your access to specific spells. So, you might cast 3 spells from your Healing Grimoire, then switch to your Smitey Flames grimoire and cast 3 different, offensive spells, at which point you'd've used up your 6 LvL-5 spells.

 

I could be mistaken... and some of it's still up in the air. Especially the grimoire switching. I'm less sure of exactly how that works.

[josan motierre]

I like Vatican spellcasting and Mana style spellcasting, but both have their problems.

 

The Vatican problem is that you run out of low level spells and have to rely on wands and things, as discussed in this thread.

 

One of mana's biggest problems has always been spamming the same powerful spell over and over. This led to cooldowns which is a terrible, and terribly widespread, mechanic. For powerful spells the Vatican system is ideal, because you only get limited uses of this spell each 'day'.

 

What I propose is simply use the Mana system for low level spells so they can be used and used and used, until the mana is depleted. Then it can recharge, or be restored with a potion. Then there's no need for wands and scrolls. For the most powerful spells, use the Vatican system. That ensures they must be saved and used at the right moment. For the weaker spells, use Mana.

 

I honestly don't know why game designers haven't done this yet. If you did it to NWN, you'd have it so that all spells below level 5 use Mana. All spells after, and including, level 5 use the Vatican system. Both systems compensate each other so well it boggles my mind that it hasn't been done yet. 

[Osvir]

Scrolls thoughts:

A) Consumables for Grimoire, I.E. Using a Scroll (drag n' drop) over a Grimoire and the Scroll becomes a part of the Grimoire (And perhaps even gives certain "bonuses" to the Grimoire itself. Specializing the Grimoire). I talked about this point a loooooooooooong time ago, maybe 1 or 2 months past I joined this board. Anyways, for instance, putting lots of Fire Scrolls into a Grimoire would make it into a...? Exactly, a Fire Grimoire. Perhaps even giving bonuses to Fire Spells due to the amount of "Fire" in the "Deck"~ A Scroll Transmuted into a Grimoire Deck wouldn't be "consumed".

B) One-Time use for any Class or Character, or a couple Charges. The Scroll gets burnt up but it allows your "Fighter" to do a Magical Ability once or twice whilst running into an engage. Of course, it wouldn't be as strong as if a Wizard was doing it, but it serves a purpose. If the 2 or 3 Grimoire's you have are full with Spells (The Grimoire "Deck" has reached it's cap of how many spells you have, and you want to build a Fire Grimoire, then you can waste some Water Scrolls). Basically using those Scrolls you can't use in a Grimoire for some extra utility purposes.

Wands thoughts

A) Dual-Wielding Wands? :D

B) A Wand could be able to empower spells from a Grimoire: "Tip the wand on the page you wish to empower, the wand will then emit a glow as it has now been enhanced. Utter the words (or utter in silence) and point the tip of your wand towards the target location and watch it unfold with greater power"

Wizard General Weapon Thoughts

A) A thought struck me as I was writing "B)" for Wands. What does different weapons do?

B) A free hand, no weapon, and a Grimoire in the Off-Hand. What sort of freedom does that give to the Wizard? 5 Fingers, 5 Magic Missiles? A Fireball that can be channeled in an open palm and be "Readied" and "Thrown" or "Cast" later? (Basically saved for a couple of turns)

C) A Wand is kind of a "Wizard's Gun" in my opinion. Point the Wand towards a location, Shoot a Fireball. It's more "Pew pew".

D) A Sword? It could have some Wand-like properties but seeing as the main medium in a Sword is some form of metal, it should obstruct massive power and instead perhaps "enchant" the immediate Blade in hand. A Fireball Spell could perhaps instead become a "Fire Sword" Spell.

E) A Staff, Two-Handed or can the Wizard hold it like a Cane? (Staff+Grimoire) The Staff should, in my opinion, be the strongest magical weapon. But it would take most time to cast anything and potentially be the Magical Weapon with least spells.

F) (This point is also sneaking in some Epic Summoning Quest thoughts) With all this said, would some certain spells require a specific Weapon, Tool, Item, Armor or whatnot to be cast? "Requires a Hammer" or "Requires a Crystal". Will there be ritualistic high-level spells that require Alchemic Ingredients? You need to boil a piece of Glanfathan Root, mash it down, sprinkle some Dust of a Fallen, take a bite of a Bat Wing and channel a Fire Spell to Summon a Dark Lord". So what you would need:

Research & Lore ("What tells you about the Summon?")
- Book: The Dark Lord Part 1 ("Learn about Glanfathan Root")
- Book: The Dark Lord Part 2 ("Learn about the Dust")
- Book: The Dark Lord Part 3 ("Learn about the Bat Wing")
- Book: The Dark Lord Part 4 ("Learn about the Fire Spell Channel")
- Find ingredients
- Use in order (Part 1, 2, 3, 4)
- Summon Dark Lord

^That's a bit of an in-depth example of what could be done. Something more simple would be:

"You need a Free Hand to be able to Cast Ghoul Touch" or "You need a Free Hand to be able to Cast Five-Finger-Fire" or "You need a Wand to be able to Cast Magic-Beam" or whatnot. What medium is best and makes most sense for what sort of spell? What is the traditional way of using a Staff in Project Eternity? Who uses Wands? Can you cast Magic without a Grimoire, and final question, what sort of Power does a Wizard without a Grimoire have?

[IndiraLightfoot]

Osvir: Some time ago, I was playing Torchlight 2 with a character that dual-wields wands, and it certainly felt like some mad laser-toting mercenary in Star Wars. Quite fun, let's just say it would be hard to translate something like that into the PE setting, unless magic abounds in every nook and cranny.

[Osvir]

Osvir: Some time ago, I was playing Torchlight 2 with a character that dual-wields wands, and it certainly felt like some mad laser-toting mercenary in Star Wars. Quite fun, let's just say it would be hard to translate something like that into the PE setting, unless magic abounds in every nook and cranny.

Obviously, PE isn't an Action RPG. That's not what I am suggesting, but merely the ability to wield 2 Wands for some extra Attack Speed. Instead of 1 Wand Attack a turn, it'd maybe be 1 1/2 Wand Attacks per turn. For an even more (imo) interesting and difficult method:

 

- 1 Wand, 1 Grimoire: 1/2 attack a turn (Attacks once every 2nd Turn)

- 2 Wands: 1 Attack a Turn (Shoots one wand 1 turn, shoots the other wand the next turn etc. etc.)

 

Wielding 2 Wands wouldn't make the Wizard be able to throw 2 Fireballs, but merely have the ability to have higher Attack Speed. Furthermore, 2 Wands should also obviously neglect the Wizard to use their Grimoire with full potential, as it would most likely sit strapped around the Wizards hip in an inactive state (or in the "Top of the Pack").

 

2 Wands:

- Pro: Attack Faster (If Wands counts as Semi-Ranged Weapons)

- Cons: Can't use all Grimoire spells

 

1 Wand+1 Grimoire:

- Pro's: Can use all Spells written down

- Con's: Can't attack as fast.

 

The reason I suggest this is because I think it gives variety to the Wizard. Having the ability to do a lot of "Suppressive Fire" without any specific "Spell Casting" (which I think could be a bit of a tactical move) with 2 Wands, and also the standard ability to simply deal tons of damage with 1 Wand/Tool and 1 Grimoire.

[IndiraLightfoot]

It sounds interesting, but it's so hard to tell when you don't try it all out in-game. Lucky sods at OEI who get to try these things out!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I like my mages to be warrior mages and weild weaponry fit for killing in martial combat. I prefer not to have them spend time stroking a small rod.

[Osvir]

I like my mages to be warrior mages and weild weaponry fit for killing in martial combat. I prefer not to have them spend time stroking a small rod.

 

And I like choices. So if Obsidian includes choices in class paths/builds, then I hope that we both get satisfied Then I can stroke play with* my rod and you can play up close and prod.

 

* Well that didn't sound much better xD

 

And of course I'd be able to build one Wizard like a Wizard, one Wizard Tank, Wizard Fighter, etc. etc. I do want to try out a Full Wizard party, but for that to be interesting it kind of requires some sort of choices so that they can differ.

 

In Icewind Dale, for instance, I did try a full Mage party. Each and every one of them had their own little uniqueness~ (One was a Diviner, another an Enchanter, Illusionist, Necromancer etc. etc.).

 

I think that a Grimoire style deck-ish thing that I suggested a few posts back could work with this (Put lots of Fire Scrolls in your Grimoire and the Grimoire gets Fire Traits or something). In the same way, if you put lots of Weapon Enhancement buffs or whatnot into your Grimoire and you are wielding a Sword, maybe that could give the Wizard more of a "Warrior" role no? (Put lots of Metal and/or Weapon Related Scrolls into your Grimoire and the Wizard gets better with Metal and/or Melee Weapons?)

 

I might be getting this wrong but I can recall something about the Grimoire being bound with the soul of the Wizard, but that might just be Forum talk~ (I.E. I'm unsure if Obsidian has said anything about this, but I know we've talked about it here). Let's just call this last bit speculation. Regardless, it would then make sense (If the Grimoire is bound to the Wizard's soul) that he would get better at the intended magic if it is transmuted or whatnot into the Grimoire.

 

Put 1 Sword Fighting Scroll into the Grimoire = Wizard becomes slightly better at Sword Fighting.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Osvir

[Tsuga C]

I like Vatican spellcasting...

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."----KJV, Exodus 22:18

 

Hmmm, I think the Pope might be in a bit of trouble...

 

 

edit: I'm looking forward to hearing more about these figurines, Obsidian. Please do tell, do tell.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Tsuga C

[Lephys]

What I propose is simply use the Mana system for low level spells so they can be used and used and used, until the mana is depleted. Then it can recharge, or be restored with a potion. Then there's no need for wands and scrolls. For the most powerful spells, use the Vatican system. That ensures they must be saved and used at the right moment. For the weaker spells, use Mana.

 

I honestly don't know why game designers haven't done this yet. If you did it to NWN, you'd have it so that all spells below level 5 use Mana. All spells after, and including, level 5 use the Vatican system. Both systems compensate each other so well it boggles my mind that it hasn't been done yet.

The P:E system pretty much addresses this in the same way you're suggesting. Not quite exactly the same, down to the detail, but, still... "current-level"/taxing spells are on a per-day cycle. Less-challenging/"lower-level" spells are on a per-encounter cycle (not quite mana, but still coinciding a good bit with the allowances of mana versus the allowances of pure Vancian per-day spells). Relatively easy spells will be unlimited-cast. I mean, an experienced Wizard can probably light virtually infinite candles in a given day, without running out of juice, so to speak. Or, in the case of actual combat functionality, tossing smaller spells, much like crossbow bolts, shouldn't really wear you completely out given the feasible amount of times you're going to need to do that in a day.

 

Anywho, the only problem I have with mana is that it provides an unnecessary ability to simply override quantity limitations. If mana recharges slowly (and/or there are time-based cooldowns or what-have-you), then you can simply burst-fire all your mana away, then retreat from combat (or do whatever you need to do to take on the fewest opponents at a time), wait for things to recharge, then re-engage. Or, if you've got mana potions and the like thrown into the mix, then you've basically introduced a "you are limited by mana, unless of course you have plenty of money with which to override that limitation most of the time" mechanic. Maybe you limit mana potions by making them very expensive or rare, but then, now you're simply back to the "you can only have so much mana (including replenishment) in a given encounter/cast so many spells in a given duration" limitation, only much more convoluted.

 

Do you expect mana potions to be used, and balance the challenge of things against 1.5x characters' total mana pools? If so, what happens when someone blows all their money on some potions, and very inefficiently uses up all their mana replenishment in a single fight, and now can't cast spells anymore, even though there's lots of combat left and their spell-casters yet live? Okay, so maybe you balance the challenge against just the typical/average mana pool. Well, now potions added in makes everything super easy. It's just a bit self-defeating in the face of the initial limitation.

 

Anywho, I think having the three tiers, like they do, will work wonderfully, and will pretty much handle any major problems with the typical systems (both mana AND pure Vancian). I mean, if you use up all your per-day spells AND per-encounter spells, you still have your unlimited-cast spells. You're just dealing with a much smaller arsenal. It's kind of like using up all your arrows, and having to switch to a sling. It's good when inefficiency/carelessness results in negative consequences, and not hard disablement.

 

Also, the transition of a given spell from per-day to per-encounter (and, subsequently, per-encounter to unlimited) conveys SUCH a feeling of power progression in your caster.