What did you think of Shadowrun returns?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Hmm, I hope that they deliver on making Physical Adepts and Mages better. Killer Hands should have stacked with the unarmed attacks you get from the Unarmed tree, not replaced them. Mages really got shafted due to lack of spell variety and the clear superiority of Shamans.

[lobotomy42]

It's fun.  Short is the right length for me these days.  The linearity doesn't bother me nearly as much as the lack of choice+consequence.  A lot of the dialogue options are "fake" options that don't end up mattering very much.  There also isn't much exploration to speak of.  Most of the areas are start at point A and end at point B without much wandering or mini-questing to do, although there are a few that try this.  But the writing, atmosphere and music are excellent, which make the experience pleasant enough.  I think your enjoyment comes down to how much you like or could get into a Cyberpunk story.

[Bester]

I just started playing and here's the thing. How the **** do I save game?

[babaganoosh13]

I just started playing and here's the thing. How the **** do I save game?

It autosaves when you go to a new area. That's all.

[melkathi]

edit: wrong thread

Edited August 20, 2013 by melkathi

[Humanoid]

For what it's worth, it's a game I intended to replay after finishing it on the first weekend of its release. But I delayed and delayed and ended up not doing it. I feel it's in a similar place as vanilla NWN/2 (except unlike both those campaigns, I did finish the OC), it's waiting for it's MotB. And maybe I hadn't been paying enough attention during development, but I had fully expected Berlin to be as big as the shipped module, so the news that it will be isn't so much 'good' news as much as dodging a revelation that would have disappointed me.

 

I'm going to go against the flow regarding the calls for more Matrix or similar alternate realities though. I'm sure it's a big part of the Shadowrun universe, but in terms of making a game with budgetary and time constraints, I'd rather the effort be focused on the larger part of the game instead of pseudo-optional content. I don't know how the Matrix plays in PnP, but in-game, it's just a stripped back gameplay area with fewer or non-existent opportunities for interesting interactions and decisions, so in a one-or-the-other development choice ...well, I'd pick the 'real' world every time. And rebalance Deckers with that in mind.

[melkathi]

That's not really possible though if it is supposed to stay a Shadowrun game. Deckers are a major part of it and the Matrix is what deckers are about. Its bad enough they had to butcher magic users (and while it would have been nice if they had included the Astral Plane, it would not have been realistic in the scope of the project), if they had left out the matrix, they might a well not have included deckers as a playable class.

[Humanoid]

I get that, and fully admit my unfamiliarity and consequent indifference to the setting influences my position. But in a tug-of-war between a better game and a more faithful game, I choose the former every time. Ultimately I think a question those with similarly indifferent opinions of the gameworld have to mine would be along the lines of "why does the act of hacking a couple of turrets have to be such a big deal that it needs its own game level(s) and mechanics to do?"

 

So while I understand some purists may be horrified, I see no problem turning what would have been Matrix sections in the (future) design documents into simple decking skill checks - of which we already have implemented in a number of places anyway. For if that's the cost of getting more game with your full party and full complement of skills rather than the abbreviated ones, then I think it's the sensible trade.

 

The issue of the Decker class is a comparatively minor sidenote. We already have D&D skills heavily modified in pretty much any iteration of the CRPGs, rebalancing Deckers to give them more 'real world' utility is an easy enough change.

 

 

EDIT: And a genuine question from an SR newbie: What is it about the Matrix that makes it less acceptable to cut than the Astral Plane (which totally not familiar with)? And surely PnP players play not-irregularly with modules and parties which include no explicit use of the Matrix?

Edited August 20, 2013 by Humanoid

[melkathi]

 

EDIT: And a genuine question from an SR newbie: What is it about the Matrix that makes it less acceptable to cut than the Astral Plane (which totally not familiar with)? And surely PnP players play not-irregularly with modules and parties which include no explicit use of the Matrix?

 

Pure personal opinion of course: magicians actually have other things to do: spellcasting. Deckers are deckers. Take away the matrix and they are riggers without the drones or street samurai without being good at combat.

At the same time, the Matrix actually can affect the real world: you can hack turrets etc. The Astral Plane on the other hand, while being parallel and allowing the person on the astral journey to percieve the real world in a way, doesn't really allow them to affect it. It would take a lot more to tie it into gameplay. Though it would be nice if they did eventually with a DLC.

Or if one was to take it by pure maths: Third Edition Rulebook: The Matrix pages 199-230, The Astral Plane pages 171-177 (magic is 158-198). So the rulebook dedicated 5 times as much space to the matrix as to the astral plane, while the astral plane is only 6 out of 40 pages in the magic chapter.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well if there is a lesson to be learned here its: don't put more than 15$ into a kickstarter game.

[Bester]

One of my guys ran out of ammo during a fight. Couldn't find how to reload, his weapon was just red. Any ideas?

[Gfted1]

In the area of the UI which shows your weapon you should see a button to reload. It costs 1 AP so if you are out of AP for the round maybe it doesn't show up?

[Althernai]

I get that, and fully admit my unfamiliarity and consequent indifference to the setting influences my position. But in a tug-of-war between a better game and a more faithful game, I choose the former every time. Ultimately I think a question those with similarly indifferent opinions of the gameworld have to mine would be along the lines of "why does the act of hacking a couple of turrets have to be such a big deal that it needs its own game level(s) and mechanics to do?"

 

So while I understand some purists may be horrified, I see no problem turning what would have been Matrix sections in the (future) design documents into simple decking skill checks - of which we already have implemented in a number of places anyway. For if that's the cost of getting more game with your full party and full complement of skills rather than the abbreviated ones, then I think it's the sensible trade.

Part of the problem is that the game was financed by the purists and some of the inducement was an experience more true to the original than the 2007 shooter. However, the issue is mostly that it wouldn't be Shadowrun without the Matrix. If you look at the source material and the stuff it is based on (going all the way back to Neuromancer), the big action sequences ("runs") usually consist of a combination of hackers in cyberspace and soldier-types in the real world. I liked the one sequence in the game where they tried to pull this off -- it mostly worked.

 

You can tell that HBS struggled with this though (you can read about it here) and what you see in the game is the outcome of that struggle. The Matrix is obviously not supposed to be about hacking some turrets and activating an elevator. However, it is good that it is there since mod-makers can use it.

[melkathi]

I don't see where people come up with this whole "purist" talk. It is a game based on a specific setting and made by the creator of that setting, who asked for backing so he could return to his setting. This setting has certain aspects that define it, namely a mix of generic (high) fantasy with cyberpunk. The strong Gibson influence is obvious for the later. For the game to truly be the setting it needs to include its defining points - and for the Gibson style cyberpunk that is the Matrix. It has as much to do with purity as leaving out metahumans would have had.

They could have left it abstract if Deckers were not playable. Maybe left it for an expansion. But as they decided to have deckers in the game, the matrix had to be in.

[Undecaf]

The game lacks in open nature, exploration and overall interactivity (for understandable reasons, I guess), but all in all I found it to be very nice little adventure RPG snack while waiting for the bigger players like Wasteland 2, T:ToN, and PE. Writing was generally good, atmosphere was awesome, combat was fairly simplistic but very sufficient for a storydriven game.

 

I do hope it and the Berlin expansion sell enough for HBS to be able to produce a sequel of similiar experience but with larger and more open scope.

[AGX-17]

The game lacks in open nature, exploration and overall interactivity (for understandable reasons, I guess), but all in all I found it to be very nice little adventure RPG snack while waiting for the bigger players like Wasteland 2, T:ToN, and PE. Writing was generally good, atmosphere was awesome, combat was fairly simplistic but very sufficient for a storydriven game.

 

I do hope it and the Berlin expansion sell enough for HBS to be able to produce a sequel of similiar experience but with larger and more open scope.

It's not a matter of "the game" lacking an "open nature," because it's not so much a game as a rulebook/devkit. The overarching purpose of the product is the production and consumption of user-generated content.

Edited August 21, 2013 by AGX-17

[Undecaf]

 

The game lacks in open nature, exploration and overall interactivity (for understandable reasons, I guess), but all in all I found it to be very nice little adventure RPG snack while waiting for the bigger players like Wasteland 2, T:ToN, and PE. Writing was generally good, atmosphere was awesome, combat was fairly simplistic but very sufficient for a storydriven game.

 

I do hope it and the Berlin expansion sell enough for HBS to be able to produce a sequel of similiar experience but with larger and more open scope.

It's not a matter of "the game" lacking an "open nature," because it's not so much a game as a rulebook/devkit. The overarching purpose of the product is the production and consumption of user-generated content.

K.

Let's change the "game" to "initial official module/campaign" then. Doesn't change the verdict, though.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Undecaf

[Spider]

I'm suspecting that just as with NWN 1 and 2, the toolkit is only going to get used by a minority of users. Most players will buy the game for the official campaign only.

 

Given the niche nature of the game, I do expect the ratio to be more in favor of people being interested in the toolset, but still don't think it will be enough people to say that's the purpose of the product.

 

I wouldn't have paid for just the toolset, but I would have paid for just the campaign.

[alanschu]

I'm not 100% buying that the sole purpose of the kickstarter was to create something for user generated content.  If that was the case, continuing to make something like Berlin wouldn't really be worth their time.

 

 

EDIT: I see that Spider pretty much said that.  I should go to bed....

[lobotomy42]

Yeah, I can say for myself that I am unlikely to play much or any user-created content.  There's just not enough time in the day to sort through the rough to find the diamonds on my own.  So much of it seems like "Here's my campaign, v 0.8.2, tell me what to change..."  Sorry, I am not beta-testing campaigns from random people on the internet.  If someone creates a really cool campaign that gets enough buzz or attention and gets, you know, finished, then perhaps I would play one or two.  But the default for me, and for a lot of other people I'd guess, is just the official campaigns -- simply because I know (or hope) they will be worth my time and money.

[Hurlshort]

I had a blast using the editor, even though my mod was pretty short and simple.  I put a lot of hours into it. That being said, I'd say the campaign was well worth the relatively inexpensive price of the game.

[Bester]

Once I get into turn based mode, how do I get out? It takes ages to move my characters deeper into the location.

[melkathi]

Once I get into turn based mode, how do I get out? It takes ages to move my characters deeper into the location.

 

You cant get out by yourself. As long as the game thinks you are in combat, you stay in combat. In a hostile area that may mean until you leave, even though there is no enemy around. Probably emant to create suspense.

[Bester]

>Probably meant to create suspense.

 

Creates butthurt in my case.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I enjoyed the **** out of some modules. Enjoy it mother****ers.