Sarex Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) What are your opinions on game manuals? Should the game be intuitive to play, or should it need a manual to fully understand all the features? Edited July 13, 2013 by Sarex "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjshae Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) I find manuals are useful for planning out your character development, particularly when the game doesn't do a good enough job. They are also handy when the game includes modding capability. Edited July 13, 2013 by rjshae "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacred_Path Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Dear devs, manuals are actually a good place to include more information on any given gameplay element than what fits in a pop-up 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argan Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I love game manuals. Even if they are not really needed to play the game sometimes, it is still a very nice way to get to know the game world, and more than anything it's a testament to the effort and love developers put into something. Just go read any manual for an old game...Fallout and Fallout 2, System Shock, Darklands, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Arcanum, Redneck Rampage, Syndicate and Syndicate Wars...they all added something extra to the experience and it was a joy to read when the game was installing. I think Betrayal of Antara even had a couple of pages by the game producer describing the general development process of the game, and some thoughts on it. Today's manuals are useless in comparison. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hormalakh Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I loved BG2's manual. I want a hard-copy. Screw the trees! Just kidding. Don't screw the trees. Just cut them down to make my manual. 3 My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions. http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/ UPDATED 9/26/2014 My DXdiag: http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknoman2 Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I loved BG2's manual. I want a hard-copy. Screw the trees! Just kidding. Don't screw the trees. Just cut them down to make my manual. well if they got holes and you are into that stuff we dont mind... just make sure you clean the wood before making it into paper now on the serious side, manuals are useful if the game is complex. there are many mechanics in games that are simply not explained properly or at all in tutorials and often tooltips are not enough... oh the horror of playing arcanum without having any reference whatsoever on what i was looking at on the screen and having to figure everything out through trial and error. i felt like a scientist trying to save a failed experiment (got the game from a magazine without any manual, printed or digital). 2 The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder. -Teknoman2- What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past? Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born! We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did. Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argan Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Oh, that's a shame. Arcanum's manual is a real piece of work by itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSOCC Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 No, if you need a manual to learn how to play a game, you've failed to make a game which a delivers the information a player needs itself. 1 Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.---Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManifestedISO Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I weep for unloved manuals, languishing at retail stores, piled haphazardly and smash-stacked on top of each other with ripped sleeves, dog-eared corners, and no respect for the art. All Stop. On Screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiphel Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I strongly believe you should be able to pick up and get into the game immediately. Manuals should act as a reference, not as a required 101 course to study before you can play. And this doesn't mean the game needs to be dumbed down or simplified; it is perfectly possible to deliver the neccesary information on the game's fundementals within the game. Beyond this though, a manual does offer the ability to serve as a comprehensive and in-depth reference document. That's a useful function. It can also be a flavour document, and I really like that. But my one strong feeling is that all the information available needs to be accesible from within the game - even if just in the form of having a copy of the manual attached to the options menu. Having to exit the game to look something up sucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrAlexander Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I say Go Digital! But Go Digital in style . And by style I mean the 200+ pages manuals. I know that half of the BG one had to explain 2nd Ed. AD&D but for someone who hadn't the inkling of idea what a THAC0 was it was pretty helpful. This game will probably not have to go into such detail. I do like big manuals but I think I would rather pay to print mine than to have money allocated to printing something only some gamers will read. I'm probably biased on this because I backed for digital rewards only. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pl1982 Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) The game needs a manual. Period. However, digital is the way to go these days. I love manuals personally and also find great disgust in the lack of manuals these days, especially for complex RPGs...then again that might just be because there are so few complex RPGs these days... Point being, a game like Doom or COD probably doesn't need a manual, but a deep RPG like PE is going to be (hopefully) needs a manual (especially for things like referencing xp tables, progression charts, etc.). However, make no mistake, I believe awesome in game tutorials are a must as well, but with a game like this there will be certain things that I doubt they could cover in game. However, if they somehow incorporated an in-game encyclopaedia (which BIS did to an extent with IWD2) containing all information such as progression mechanics, tables, etc. then perhaps a manual is not needed. So I guess my conclusion would be: it depends on what the developers want to do/can do; if an in-game encyclopaedia can be included without breaking immersion to much then the game probably doesn’t need an external manual, otherwise it does, but from the sheer fact of the complexity of the game an additional source of elaboration on the games mechanics will definitely be needed (i.e. either in game as an encyclopaedia of sorts or as an external PDF document). I also however echo the above poster Eiphel in leaning more towards having all resources available in game (i.e. an in-game complete encyclopaedia would be ideal; akin to CIV4&5). Edited July 14, 2013 by pl1982 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendu Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Total War: Shogun 2 ingame manual is just awesome. That's the way it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSOCC Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I'd be OK with a sort of a civlopedia type thing. Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.---Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjshae Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I pledged at the level I did so that I can get a physical copy of the media and a printed manual. For me it's decidedly not a subject of debate, unlike virtually everything else around here. 3 "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argan Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) Screw digital, give us something real! Edited July 14, 2013 by argan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eimatshya Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I'm OK with the game not having a manual. Modern games don't really have decent manuals anymore, so I'm acclimated to playing a game manual-less. That said, I did really love reading through the manuals that games had in the 90s. The Fallout 1 and 2 manuals, for example, were great fun. I'd be fine with having to refer to the manual to understand gameplay elements, as I actually find that much less immersion breaking than having the game explain stuff to me (I've been replaying Alpha Protocol, and while overall I love that game, the pop ups tutorials really do take me out of the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikolokolus Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Sure tool-tips are great and in-game presentation of mechanics is important, but If an RPG is so simple that it doesn't require a manual for reference, then in my opinion the developers haven't made a proper RPG. I'm not saying it needs to be 200 pages long and insanely convoluted, but there should be enough "crunch" in the game that I need to do some light reading if I want to get an idea of how to plan out a character's progression ... especially for a franchise that appears to have tabletop gaming aspirations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 The game should be intuitive enough to play without a manual. If I need a specific piece of information, it's easier to find with a search from a digital manual. That said, if there's some stuff that'd work better in a manual, then by all means make one. But don't just start up making a manual and then try to think what to put there. One suggestion. Back in the eighties, the absolute best game manuals were made by Microprose. There were the obvious how to play parts and keyboard layouts, but the extra info was the neat bit. - Stealth fighter had pictures and stats and info of bazillion fighter planes of the era. - Red Storm Rising the same of submarines. So maybe something that'd explain to newcomers what's a brigandine, or estoc, or wheellock, or lamellar, or whatever stuff the game tosses your way. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacred_Path Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Back in the eighties, the absolute best game manuals were made by Microprose. So maybe something that'd explain to newcomers what's a brigandine, or estoc, or wheellock, or lamellar, or whatever stuff the game tosses your way. case in point: Darklands' manual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Labadal Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 If I can't beat someone senseless with it in one hit, it ain't a real manual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 If I can't beat someone senseless with it in one hit, it ain't a real manual. Ah, so you want the police issue manuals, aka. the phonebook manuals. XD "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Labadal Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Of course. It should also be filled with so much text that 99.9% of the people reading it will fall asleep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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