Romance, Marriage, Pregnancy and having Children.

[Malcador]

I've got the same reaction when Zevran from Dragon Age tried to saduce me ...beurkkkkkk beurkkkkk

Well, you must have been glad when you got the chance to kill him then. That really should be in games as a rejection option - knife to the throat.

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

 

 

 

You are master of theatrics and also very funny

 

 

I've got the same reaction when Zevran from Dragon Age tried to saduce me ...beurkkkkkk beurkkkkk

 

 

I've enjoyed your posts up to now but please refrain from blatant homophobia as I'll end up not liking you at all.

 

 

Heh.. it's not homophobia, but the dialog of zevran was simply so horrible wen he was trying to do so i almost jump out of window.

 

i whoud understand a dialog like "do you like men ?" insted "i like men i you make me horny" sorry it's to much for me ....

 

Beside jekeing about romances in general is good, but jokeing about badly writhen homo-relationship is horrible ?

[Ulquiorra]

 

I've got the same reaction when Zevran from Dragon Age tried to saduce me ...beurkkkkkk beurkkkkk

Well, you must have been glad when you got the chance to kill him then. That really should be in games as a rejection option - knife to the throat.

 

 

I almost thinked that he will do this when i rejected him -15 to influence just for say NO !

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are master of theatrics and also very funny

 

 

I've got the same reaction when Zevran from Dragon Age tried to saduce me ...beurkkkkkk beurkkkkk

 

 

I've enjoyed your posts up to now but please refrain from blatant homophobia as I'll end up not liking you at all.

 

 

Heh.. it's not homophobia, but the dialog of zevran was simply so horrible wen he was trying to do so i almost jump out of window.

 

i whoud understand a dialog like "do you like men ?" insted "i like men i you make me horny" sorry it's to much for me ....

 

Beside jekeing about romances in general is good, but jokeing about badly writhen homo-relationship is horrible ?

 

 

Okay I misunderstood you, I apologize

And I agree, they generally stereotype Gay people as wanting  to sleep with every person that they lay there eyes on

[alanschu]

Romance drew in a lot of fans on BSN but how many fans did it drive away?  It's easy to know how many you got, almost impossible to know how many you lost since genuine losses don't bother posting on the forums they just go elsewhere.

 

 

At this point, I have to ask, how marginal must romances be simply because you hope that they are?

 

Your entire post earlier, in response to me, can be directly countered with every argument that you make.  It's meaningless to pull out the tired "correlation vs causation" argument only to immediately counter with a correlation of your own.

 

What you're putting forth is a supposition.  So tell me, how many fans do romances drive away?

 

Could it be lots? Sure.  I have to ask you, could it be miniscule?  The strongest impetus of your argument comes across as "this is the way I want it to be."  This isn't particularly compelling.

 

 

 

I'm of the opinion that, if Obsidian wants to put in romance content, then they should.  If they don't, and feel that time is better put elsewhere, then they shouldn't.  But the dismissive attitudes towards people that DO like romances is entirely overstated in my direct experiences on ALL the RPG message boards (not just BioWare's) I visit, as well as direct interactions with many of the fans at various cons.  A lot of people like them.  A lot are indifferent (I'd put myself here).  Some do actively hate them, although my presumption is that this stems more from the amount of focus that those that like them place on them.

 

I can't validate this with data (nor do I care to), but I do feel that a lot of hatred for this topic comes from a vindictiveness towards those that REALLY like it, to the point where people get tired of threads like this one or the idea that, because they don't care about the feature they see it as an opportunity cost that they don't want to pay.

 

(As an aside, I see this pretty much everywhere for all topics.  Take a group of people that REALLY like something, and you'll get people that end up really hating it because they find those that really like it annoying and persistent).

[tajerio]

A positive correlation of romance and sales, where sales are the dependent variable and romance is independent, seems to me to be the shakiest sort of ground.  There's no analytic, objective data on the point that could help to prove or disprove that hypothesis.  We've got anecdotal evidence from posters here, and lots of conjecture, but nothing that could be the basis for a rational case.

 

However, we do know a few things about what helps a game do well in sales.  Given the constraints under which Obsidian is currently operating, they currently have access to one proven major cause of good sales: make a good game.  If adding romance helps that, in their estimation, then by all means, they should go for it.  If adding romance would hurt that, in their estimation, then keep it out.  Any other considerations of romance have to be secondary to that.

[BruceVC]

A positive correlation of romance and sales, where sales are the dependent variable and romance is independent, seems to me to be the shakiest sort of ground.  There's no analytic, objective data on the point that could help to prove or disprove that hypothesis.  We've got anecdotal evidence from posters here, and lots of conjecture, but nothing that could be the basis for a rational case.

 

However, we do know a few things about what helps a game do well in sales.  Given the constraints under which Obsidian is currently operating, they currently have access to one proven major cause of good sales: make a good game.  If adding romance helps that, in their estimation, then by all means, they should go for it.  If adding romance would hurt that, in their estimation, then keep it out.  Any other considerations of romance have to be secondary to that.

 

But I think we are all in agreement that Romance can only help a game become even better?

 

Also I visit BSN and have read several times that people buy certain games because of the Romance option, surly that is data that adds to my view that Romance helps with sales? Isn't my view rational based on what I have heard and read?

[tajerio]

 

But I think we are all in agreement that Romance can only help a game become even better?

 

Also I visit BSN and have read several times that people buy certain games because of the Romance option, surly that is data that adds to my view that Romance helps with sales? Isn't my view rational based on what I have heard and read?

 

 

Nice try, BruceVC, but I think if we were all in agreement this thread wouldn't be seventeen pages long, and wouldn't be the most recent of seventeen threads either.

 

What you present there is almost the textbook definition of anecdotal evidence.  As any behavioral economist will tell you, people are more easily swayed by a few colorful examples than by the weight of data.  So, though it is--as you have clearly recognized--a good tool for scoring points in arguments, anecdotal evidence doesn't actually prove anything.  Here in this thread I can find a number of examples of people who believe the antithesis of what you do, as strongly as you do.  Would you then concede that romance doesn't help with sales, just because I can find anecdotal counterexamples?

[alanschu]

 

 

But I think we are all in agreement that Romance can only help a game become even better?

 

I definitely would NOT agree with this.

 

There's no such thing as a type of content that can only, unequivocally make something better.  Unless we're classifying it in a nebulous way such as "good" content.  At which point it's a tautology.  (Adding good content makes something good).

 

 

It's entirely possible for romance content to be added in a way that ultimately takes away from the game.  Further, it's nearly impossible to truly ascertain that adding romance content is the best thing to do with that time, in order to make the best game possible.

[BruceVC]

 

 

But I think we are all in agreement that Romance can only help a game become even better?

 

Also I visit BSN and have read several times that people buy certain games because of the Romance option, surly that is data that adds to my view that Romance helps with sales? Isn't my view rational based on what I have heard and read?

 

 

Nice try, BruceVC, but I think if we were all in agreement this thread wouldn't be seventeen pages long, and wouldn't be the most recent of seventeen threads either.

 

What you present there is almost the textbook definition of anecdotal evidence.  As any behavioral economist will tell you, people are more easily swayed by a few colorful examples than by the weight of data.  So, though it is--as you have clearly recognized--a good tool for scoring points in arguments, anecdotal evidence doesn't actually prove anything.  Here in this thread I can find a number of examples of people who believe the antithesis of what you do, as strongly as you do.  Would you then concede that romance doesn't help with sales, just because I can find anecdotal counterexamples?

 

 

 You make some good points

 

I have to concede that you are right and the implementation of Romance is not what everyone wants. I thought I could slip that one in without you noticing

 

But now back to the facts, let me give you a different example to reinforce my point. We know that ME and DA each sold several million copies and that is considered excellent sales figures. We also know that each game had comprehensive implementations of Romance. These are facts right?

 

Now if you go to BSN you will find hundreds of posts from people who love and cherish Bioware games and the way they implement Romance. Without doing detailed research I can't say that all those millions of people bought Bioware games for Romance but I can say without a doubt that the integration of Romance hasn't effected there sales figures. And if they did they were negligible as we know the excellent sales numbers

 

So why leave out something like Romance when it can potentially make certain groups purchase the game and by including it you won't be effecting the sales as we can see from the Bioware model? Why not just include it

[BruceVC]

 

But I think we are all in agreement that Romance can only help a game become even better?

 

I definitely would NOT agree with this.

 

There's no such thing as a type of content that can only, unequivocally make something better.  Unless we're classifying it in a nebulous way such as "good" content.  At which point it's a tautology.  (Adding good content makes something good).

 

 

It's entirely possible for romance content to be added in a way that ultimately takes away from the game.  Further, it's nearly impossible to truly ascertain that adding romance content is the best thing to do with that time, in order to make the best game possible.

 

 

I was just joking Alan with that comment as this whole discussion is about if Romance should be included. We don't agree at all   

Edited July 24, 2013 by BruceVC

[KillerClowns]

 

 

 

But I think we are all in agreement that Romance can only help a game become even better?

 

Also I visit BSN and have read several times that people buy certain games because of the Romance option, surly that is data that adds to my view that Romance helps with sales? Isn't my view rational based on what I have heard and read?

 

 

Nice try, BruceVC, but I think if we were all in agreement this thread wouldn't be seventeen pages long, and wouldn't be the most recent of seventeen threads either.

 

What you present there is almost the textbook definition of anecdotal evidence.  As any behavioral economist will tell you, people are more easily swayed by a few colorful examples than by the weight of data.  So, though it is--as you have clearly recognized--a good tool for scoring points in arguments, anecdotal evidence doesn't actually prove anything.  Here in this thread I can find a number of examples of people who believe the antithesis of what you do, as strongly as you do.  Would you then concede that romance doesn't help with sales, just because I can find anecdotal counterexamples?

 

 

 You make some good points

 

I have to concede that you are right and the implementation of Romance is not what everyone wants. I thought I could slip that one in without you noticing

 

But now back to the facts, let me give you a different example to reinforce my point. We know that ME and DA each sold several million copies and that is considered excellent sales figures. We also know that each game had comprehensive implementations of Romance. These are facts right?

 

Now if you go to BSN you will find hundreds of posts from people who love and cherish Bioware games and the way they implement Romance. Without doing detailed research I can't say that all those millions of people bought Bioware games for Romance but I can say without a doubt that the integration of Romance hasn't effected there sales figures. And if they did they were negligible as we know the excellent sales numbers

 

So why leave out something like Romance when it can potentially make certain groups purchase the game and by including it you won't be effecting the sales as we can see from the Bioware model? Why not just include it

 

I can already see the reply incoming, the common refrain: "because it takes up writing resources that could be used elsewhere."

 

EDIT: Not saying it's an illegitimate argument or anything, mind, just that it's a common and inevitable one.

Edited July 24, 2013 by KillerClowns

[Malcador]

At this point, every answer to why it shouldn't be in or should be in has already been stated. I'm sure some Obsidian staffer reads this for a decent laugh.

[alanschu]

 

 

I can already see the reply incoming, the common refrain: "because it takes up writing resources that could be used elsewhere."

 

The problem is that, in my opinion, fans are better served NOT trying to come up with business cases why a developer should or should not do something.  Most times I find it undermines the argument as people demonstrate only a cursory level of understanding, and that that understanding is in large part founded on assumptions.

 

I try not to fault people, though, since I remember making all the same arguments myself back in the day, and on a high level there's still some validity to a lot of them.

 

 

It's much more useful for the feedback to be "This is what I like, and why" or "This is what I didn't like, and why" as opposed to "this is why you should do thing I like instead of thing I like less, because of <business reasons I may or may not fully appreciate>"

[tajerio]

 

 

 

I can already see the reply incoming, the common refrain: "because it takes up writing resources that could be used elsewhere."

 

EDIT: Not saying it's an illegitimate argument or anything, mind, just that it's a common and inevitable one.

 

 

I'm not arguing for or against romance here.  I've never seen a romance in an RPG that I particularly enjoyed, in large part because real-life romance is always incredibly specific to the people involved, and CRPG romance has to be pretty generalist because of all the PC options.  So I think it would be very difficult to do well, since it would have to hit both specific and generalist points.  That said, because of the high degree of difficulty, I think I would stand up and applaud if P:E had a romance done well.  And if the devs decide it's a good use of resources, I'm not going to second-guess them--they're the ones with experience and expertise, not I.

 

@BruceVC: I certainly wouldn't argue that the ME and DA franchises have been excellent in terms of sales (they've saved EA from having a huge stinking turd of a balance sheet more than once), but I think it's a bit much to say without a doubt that romance hasn't affected their sales at all.  There's just no way to measure that.

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

By including Romance you will appeal to a huge group of people that potentially may not be as interested in PE if the game has no Romance.

 

The type of people who only play games for romances are precisely the group of people I would choose not to share a forum with. It's like casting a 'Summon Creepy BSN Hivemind' spell.

[BruceVC]

 

By including Romance you will appeal to a huge group of people that potentially may not be as interested in PE if the game has no Romance.

 

The type of people who only play games for romances are precisely the group of people I would choose not to share a forum with. It's like casting a 'Summon Creepy BSN Hivemind' spell.

 

 

"'Summon Creepy BSN Hivemind' spell"    Funny

 

But what I mean is they play RPG for the other reasons we do but the Romance element is huge for them. Its probably the second most important thing after the story

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

[T]he Romance element is huge for them

 

Which is why they must be hunted down and expunged with fire and sword.

[Bos_hybrid]

I have to concede that you are right and the implementation of Romance is not what everyone wants. I thought I could slip that one in without you noticing

 

But now back to the facts, let me give you a different example to reinforce my point. We know that ME and DA each sold several million copies and that is considered excellent sales figures. We also know that each game had comprehensive implementations of Romance. These are facts right?

 

We know that Oblivion, Fallout 3 and FO:NV sold better then both the ME and DA series. Their was no romance in these games.

 

Now if you go to BSN you will find hundreds of posts from people who love and cherish Bioware games and the way they implement Romance. Without doing detailed research I can't say that all those millions of people bought Bioware games for Romance but I can say without a doubt that the integration of Romance hasn't effected there sales figures. And if they did they were negligible as we know the excellent sales numbers

 

 

Wait first you were saying that adding romance would increase sales for PE, now your saying it hasn't effected the sale of bioware games?

 

So why leave out something like Romance when it can potentially make certain groups purchase the game and by including it you won't be effecting the sales as we can see from the Bioware model? Why not just include it

 

I question the thought the the inclusion of romance would make people that weren't already interested in P:E suddenly buy it. Many of the romance fans on BSN also like other features bio uses(voiced pc cinematic dialogue, TPS etc) features that aren't in PE. PE is an old school game for those that would like to see a return to the older ways of making an RPG. Many on BSN haven't played BG, IWD or Torment and for those that have, many of them think bioware's latest titles are superior.

[Ulquiorra]

 

We know that Oblivion, Fallout 3 and FO:NV sold better then both the ME and DA series. Their was no romance in these games.

 

 

Only Fallot NV was good game from those three you mentioned. Oblivion and fallout 3 was good examples how not to make a games in general.

 

In Fallout NV you don't have a romance but some hints of it with cass.

 

Besides pokemon games also have hudge sales, with doesn't mean we must create cathable monster that evoluve when the gain level or mute main character.

[Bos_hybrid]

 

 

We know that Oblivion, Fallout 3 and FO:NV sold better then both the ME and DA series. Their was no romance in these games.

 

 

Only Fallot NV was good game from those three you mentioned. Oblivion and fallout 3 was good examples how not to make a games in general.

 

I agree here.

 

In Fallout NV you don't have a romance but some hints of it with cass.

 

No it didn't. There was no hint. Hell her ending slide has her hooking up with some random NCR trooper. That is not someone pining for the PC. Beside I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere she dismisses any thought on the matter if the player uses the lady killer perk.

 

Besides pokemon games also have hudge sales, with doesn't mean we must create cathable monster that evoluve when the gain level or mute main character.

Thank you. Now apply this logic to romances.(based on the increased sales theory.)

[Darji]

 

By including Romance you will appeal to a huge group of people that potentially may not be as interested in PE if the game has no Romance.

 

The type of people who only play games for romances are precisely the group of people I would choose not to share a forum with. It's like casting a 'Summon Creepy BSN Hivemind' spell.

 

who here is even talking about the Mass effect or Dragon age romance? Most people want a mature love story or romance. Even stuff like it was with Triss and Gerald in the Witcher would be enough.  Not the sex card collecting cards but the relationship between Triss and Gerald

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

Besides pokemon games also have hudge sales, with doesn't mean we must create cathable monster that evoluve when the gain level or mute main character.

Thank you. Now apply this logic to romances.(based on the increased sales theory.)

 

 

Mayby im proromances but im not fan of idea of adding romance only based on incrised sales, Becouse we get romance like elanee that was forced or other creaoy dragon age romances (not counting morrigan).

 

Besides im more fan of the idea of adding romances becouse it gives player more possiblititys of role play. Im not fan of sales theory.

 

But im also not agints in fully. Becouse adding romances as "option" whoud not change gameplay of people that don't want them. But not adding them whoud change game play of people that want them.

 

So logicly adding cathable monsters whoud complatly change gameplay, but adding optional writhen content does not. So logicly speaking adding romances as optional whoud atract people that want them, but still won't scare of those who don't. But not adding them can scare of some group of people that want romances and not scared those who don't.

 

But im not only for adding them, i want them to be relevant to the story, not simple not meaningfull content.

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

By including Romance you will appeal to a huge group of people that potentially may not be as interested in PE if the game has no Romance.

 

The type of people who only play games for romances are precisely the group of people I would choose not to share a forum with. It's like casting a 'Summon Creepy BSN Hivemind' spell.

 

who here is even talking about the Mass effect or Dragon age romance? Most people want a mature love story or romance. Even stuff like it was with Triss and Gerald in the Witcher would be enough.  Not the sex card collecting cards but the relationship between Triss and Gerald

 

 

Nope, you're all the same to me.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

As my moniker insinuates, I favor the elegance of theatrical loquaciousness to construe my intentions above the brevity of concision. Please regard this uncharacteristic depature with considerable clemency.

                                               

Moderators.

 

Please.

 

Euthanize this degenerate and pitiful squabble.