Item Durability

[Hormalakh]

It's too difficult to tell how all the skills work together currently, but I don't like crafting and item durability to be so intertwined. Non-combat skills and combat skills are mixing: the opposite of what OEI said would happen. This needs a lot of thought and rework. It needs to NOT BE A CHORE.

[Elerond]

I think that they said that their plan is to do different skill point pools for combat and non-combat skills, so that you don't need to sacrifice your combat prowess if you want to take non-combat skills. Which don't mean that non-combat skills couldn't help you in the combat. For example with stealth you probably can better position you party so that combat is easier to win and if there is sneak attack you can perform those. Getting combat benefits from non-combat skills isn't anything strange but quite common occurrence, especially in IE style games. 

[Hormalakh]

I think that they said that their plan is to do different skill point pools for combat and non-combat skills, so that you don't need to sacrifice your combat prowess if you want to take non-combat skills. Which don't mean that non-combat skills couldn't help you in the combat. For example with stealth you probably can better position you party so that combat is easier to win and if there is sneak attack you can perform those. Getting combat benefits from non-combat skills isn't anything strange but quite common occurrence, especially in IE style games.

Non-Combat Abilities

 

Let's talk first about your goals as a player, about the things you would like to do besides fighting. Then I'll talk about our design goals and explain how we are putting the non-combat systems together.

Player Goals

When you are not fighting, that's when non-combat abilities come into play. We plan to add abilities that will let you become better at achieving four different non-combat goals.

 

Learning new things. This includes finding out previously unknown information, like the location of town or a hidden door, or uncovering secret knowledge, like a potion recipe or the true name of a demon. Or maybe you just want to know a good place to gather materials like ore or herbs. We will make abilities that let you find things out.

Traveling around the world. You will want to improve your movement capabilities (such as sneaking around some ruins), or traveling across the world map faster or more safely, or even teleporting directly to your destination. And sometimes movement requires removing barriers like locks or traps, so you will need some way to unlock and disarm. We'll add abilities for these actions.

Getting new items. (oh also we want to sort of make this a combat skill too) If you are not going to kill a creature to take its things, then we will give you the means to make new items, buy them, or steal them. Or maybe you will choose to support NPC's by bringing them the materials or the recipes needed to make new items for you. We congratulate you on your non-violent (well unless if its about your swords and how you can keep them durable) and cooperative plans of wealth acquisition, and we'll give you the means to do it.

Interacting with companions. Once we have added many interesting and useful NPC companions, we will have to give you ways to recruit them, improve their usefulness, and keep them from dying (or even worse, disliking you!). We will make non-combat abilities that interact with your companions, so you can keep them alive and filled with a grudging respect for you.

Crafting was a non-combat skill. They said as much.

[Elerond]

 

I think that they said that their plan is to do different skill point pools for combat and non-combat skills, so that you don't need to sacrifice your combat prowess if you want to take non-combat skills. Which don't mean that non-combat skills couldn't help you in the combat. For example with stealth you probably can better position you party so that combat is easier to win and if there is sneak attack you can perform those. Getting combat benefits from non-combat skills isn't anything strange but quite common occurrence, especially in IE style games.

Non-Combat Abilities

 

Let's talk first about your goals as a player, about the things you would like to do besides fighting. Then I'll talk about our design goals and explain how we are putting the non-combat systems together.

Player Goals

When you are not fighting, that's when non-combat abilities come into play. We plan to add abilities that will let you become better at achieving four different non-combat goals.

 

Learning new things. This includes finding out previously unknown information, like the location of town or a hidden door, or uncovering secret knowledge, like a potion recipe or the true name of a demon. Or maybe you just want to know a good place to gather materials like ore or herbs. We will make abilities that let you find things out.

Traveling around the world. You will want to improve your movement capabilities (such as sneaking around some ruins), or traveling across the world map faster or more safely, or even teleporting directly to your destination. And sometimes movement requires removing barriers like locks or traps, so you will need some way to unlock and disarm. We'll add abilities for these actions.

Getting new items. (oh also we want to sort of make this a combat skill too) If you are not going to kill a creature to take its things, then we will give you the means to make new items, buy them, or steal them. Or maybe you will choose to support NPC's by bringing them the materials or the recipes needed to make new items for you. We congratulate you on your non-violent (well unless if its about your swords and how you can keep them durable) and cooperative plans of wealth acquisition, and we'll give you the means to do it.

Interacting with companions. Once we have added many interesting and useful NPC companions, we will have to give you ways to recruit them, improve their usefulness, and keep them from dying (or even worse, disliking you!). We will make non-combat abilities that interact with your companions, so you can keep them alive and filled with a grudging respect for you.

Crafting was a non-combat skill. They said as much.

 

 

In that they also mention how non-combat abilities will give you indirect benefits to combat, like getting better gear, getting around enemies, getting better position. In my opinion skill that makes you equipment more durable fit in this indirect benefits in combat category, as it is quite similar benefit as getting/making better gear that improves your characters combat prowess. And mostly better enduring equipment is economical benefit, not combat benefit, because in reality it gives you two benefits, first you need to spent less money to repair your equipment and two you can explore world/dungeon longer time without fear of decreasing combat benefits from your equipment. 

[Hormalakh]

After the initial shock and further thinking, I guess my two main issues with item durability are these:

 

1- I'm afraid of the inanity of repairing items. I don't find this to be particularly fun nor do I like spending time checking and rechecking my weapons after every battle to see whether I need to return to town to repair, rest, restock. Place a UI marker to help players quickly identify when they need to return to town and make it a quick and easy to do this. Don't make me waste 15 minutes every hour just to fix my stuff. If item durability is meant to play as a money sink, don't make it a time sink.

 

2- With character health, the way you use tactics can affect your costs. You can minimize your costs with potions and buffs, etc. However, regardless of how you use your armor and weapons, you'll always have to repair them and at the same rate every time. At least make durability have several inputs in which it can be affected. Crafting is one input. Place a few talents or abilities and a few spells that can positively and negatively affect this. And make item durability affect enemy items too.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Hormalakh

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

I say that if the majority of backers withold their opinion, there's no reason for OE to change their decisions.

 

If 90% of the vocal minority reading this forum were thrashing a feature (which isn't happening in this case though) in all likelihood most of the non-vocal majority not reading the forum would also thrash this feature.

Or maybe actually playing it they'll love it? Everything said in this thread is pure theorycraft, if people gave it a chance they might love it. Over 32 years of experience has taught me that I and most other people don't really understand what we actually like.

[Commitment Tissues]

Why can't suboptimal choices just be suboptimal choices? Why do players who make elementary mistakes need to be accommodated? there's a learning curve in every game and starting off making bad decisions is part of the natural progression. If someone chooses to skill two of their characters to craft let them rue their mistake.

 

The item durability mechanic does feel tacked on as mentioned previously. Why does there need to be a money sink? it shouldn't be difficult to create a scarcity of resources in a single player game, no one is bot mining here. I wish more games would just adopt a dwarf fortress or path of exile style economy with bartering and no gold pieces.

 

Having to click the repair/gold-sink button at a camp or blacksmiths every two hours will add nothing worthwhile to the game imo.

 

 

Edit: I imagine a durability system might possibly work well if it were a lot more severe. Such mechanics could create some more interesting resource management situations If weapons and armour could be destroyed or progressively become less effective as they wore down (and couldn'e be repaired). But I don't see how these half measure mechanics create any interesting situations.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Commitment Tissues

[SunBroSolaire]

It's too difficult to tell how all the skills work together currently, but I don't like crafting and item durability to be so intertwined. Non-combat skills and combat skills are mixing: the opposite of what OEI said would happen. This needs a lot of thought and rework. It needs to NOT BE A CHORE.

You can't say it's going to be a chore yet. I feel like your having a knee-jerk reaction here. Do you really think Tim Cain or Josh Sawyer are going to design a totally useless mechanic that's just a chore? Not saying that anything they say is automatically great, but they're really good game designers and it seems a little dismissive to just assume you know better than them.

[DCParry]

In general, I have no problem with polls. Again, this one was made to create a mostly binary discussion with an emphasis on 'durability as they described sucks because I think it does, so here are some options to confirm my opinion." At the very minimum there should have been a fourth option along the lines "I am reserving judgement until more information is available". 

[SunBroSolaire]

 

Remember that Sawyer has said other classes will have equally high starting skils in Mechanics and Stealth, so the Rogue isn't locked into being the mechanics and stealth guy. If you already have your Monk focusing on stealth it might be a good fit for the Rogue to pick up crafting.

 

We'll have to see what the other skills are before we know what classes will do best with crafting. Are there weapon or armor skills? Those would probably give a much more tangible benefit to Fighters and Paladins.

I am talking specifically about power-gaming. The Rogue will benefit the most from Stealth because they do the most single target damage. So having a Rogue will max stealth will mean you can sneak up real close to enemies and deal a bucket full of damage in one strike. Rangers are supposed to be next in line regarding single target damage as per D&D4E, so they would be the next most beneficiary. Having it on a monk is useful when you get abilities like "Stunning Fist"/"Quivering Palm" etc.

 

And we likely will get abilities like those, so what is your point? You seem to be suggesting that it would be a bad thing if there was an optimal configuration for crafters, but then your talking about power gaming, so..?

 

So what if it is optimal to take crafting as a fighter? I think it's very unlikely that it will be optimal to focus on crafting with more than one character, but that's impossible to say without more information. 

 

Optimizing should be hard. If a choice doesn't involve real tradeoffs, it isn't a real (or at least not an interesting) choice. Tying durability to crafting gives that skill more value and makes optimizing harder. I don't see how that is a bad thing.

[Cultist]

Or maybe actually playing it they'll love it? Everything said in this thread is pure theorycraft, if people gave it a chance they might love it. Over 32 years of experience has taught me that I and most other people don't really understand what we actually like.

You are not going to eat food you hate only because it is in a different plate. I, for example, hated every example of durability system in single-player games, with the exception of JA2, and I know that I will not like any form of its implementation in PE.

My experience taught me that if people hate some principle, they will hate it regardless of form. It's like time limits - you can introduce them in different ways but in the end it is the same time limit.

[Sensuki]

And we likely will get abilities like those, so what is your point?

You now no longer take crafting for crafting as a power gamer, you take it for item durability reduction.

[BobbinThreadbare]

Just to be clear from Tim Cain's post" "Items have lots of units of durability, and they do not suffer any negative effects until those units are completely gone."  So it will likely be at 25%, when the item is shown as "worn" status, that one might start getting concerned.

 

I have no horse in this race.  

 

 

I've already admitted this is a mental problem I have.

[Cultist]

Just to be clear from Tim Cain's post" "Items have lots of units of durability, and they do not suffer any negative effects until those units are completely gone."  So it will likely be at 25%, when the item is shown as "worn" status, that one might start getting concerned.

 

I have no horse in this race.  

It's not a matter of how much durability items have or cost of repair. The problem is that durability exist.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Cultist

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Or maybe actually playing it they'll love it? Everything said in this thread is pure theorycraft, if people gave it a chance they might love it. Over 32 years of experience has taught me that I and most other people don't really understand what we actually like.

You are not going to eat food you hate only because it is in a different plate. I, for example, hated every example of durability system in single-player games, with the exception of JA2, and I know that I will not like any form of its implementation in PE.

My experience taught me that if people hate some principle, they will hate it regardless of form. It's like time limits - you can introduce them in different ways but in the end it is the same time limit.

Yet you acknowledge one game already where you didn't hate it? If it was a system of durability you had already tried your analogy would work but it isn't. A better analogy would be to say you don't like chinese meals and so won't even try one you haven't tried before.

[teknoman2]

well the durability thing is a complicated matter and my policy is to let the devs do as they see fit and judge the result. however by puting things in perspective:

the idea is to make crafting skills viable for more party members than just one dedicated to the profession.

that's good as a thought, however by having a single crafter, he can just repair the rest of the party's armor and weapons when needed.

however if the repairs can only be done in a forge (not specified in the update), the party with damaged gear, will have to leave what it's doing for later or proceed with it's task at greater risk.

if the repairs are done in a forge, then you have to pay the owner to use his tools or pay even more for him to do it for you and here's where the stronghold comes in.

if you invest on making a smithy in the stronghold, then you can use it to repair your stuff for free, provided you do it yourself and not ask the smith to do it.

and also, if the gear gets damaged too often, then you need more and more trips to the forge to fix them and you waste more and more money if you dont have your own forge,  making the crafting skill useful for characters that use their gear often (a wizard that stands away form the thick of it, will probably never get his gear damaged, while a warrior will give and take blows that will ruin his armor and weapon at every encounter)

[Cultist]

Yet you acknowledge one game already where you didn't hate it? If it was a system of durability you had already tried your analogy would work but it isn't. A better analogy would be to say you don't like chinese meals and so won't even try one you haven't tried before.

I expected it to be in JA2, because it is a game with A LOT of micromanagement and noncombat activities. My analogy is with Fallout, Arcanum, Dialbo 2 etc.

Better  analogy will be to say that if I hate fish and seafood, I won't even try salad with even one such ingridient.

[Hassat Hunter]

make people do some forefront planning, like fixing their equipment and taking another set of weapons with you before going in that 15th level dungeon.

I much prefer 'planning' like "It's a fire dugeon, so bring ice weapons as backup" or "skeletons ahead, let's use arrow heads with sand bags on top of the tip to hit them with my ranged heroes' rather than 'oh my, I need a second weapon if the first breaks due to item duration'...

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Yet you acknowledge one game already where you didn't hate it? If it was a system of durability you had already tried your analogy would work but it isn't. A better analogy would be to say you don't like chinese meals and so won't even try one you haven't tried before.

I expected it to be in JA2, because it is a game with A LOT of micromanagement and noncombat activities. My analogy is with Fallout, Arcanum, Dialbo 2 etc.

Better analogy will be to say that if I hate fish and seafood, I won't even try salad with even one such ingridient.

But since you DO accept durability in JA2 that analogy doesn't work since you will have 'fish' in certain foods, so it can't be the ingredient you hate. And the games you list are so different that you cannot compare them, Diablo and Fallout are nothing alike for instance, so not sure why you would differentiate JA from them. Edited July 5, 2013 by FlintlockJazz

[TrashMan]

 

Or maybe actually playing it they'll love it? Everything said in this thread is pure theorycraft, if people gave it a chance they might love it. Over 32 years of experience has taught me that I and most other people don't really understand what we actually like.

You are not going to eat food you hate only because it is in a different plate. I, for example, hated every example of durability system in single-player games, with the exception of JA2, and I know that I will not like any form of its implementation in PE.

My experience taught me that if people hate some principle, they will hate it regardless of form. It's like time limits - you can introduce them in different ways but in the end it is the same time limit.

 

 

My experience has tought me that your experiecne is wrong.

 

Exceptions prove the rule. Including your rule that if you hate something on principle you will ALWAYS hate it in every instance.

People change. Tastes change. Perceptions change. Even preconceptions can change.

 

You say you hate something on principle - but why does a person hate something on principle? For lack of prior positive experience.

Edited July 5, 2013 by TrashMan

[Malekith]

 

It's too difficult to tell how all the skills work together currently, but I don't like crafting and item durability to be so intertwined. Non-combat skills and combat skills are mixing: the opposite of what OEI said would happen. This needs a lot of thought and rework. It needs to NOT BE A CHORE.

You can't say it's going to be a chore yet. I feel like your having a knee-jerk reaction here. Do you really think Tim Cain or Josh Sawyer are going to design a totally useless mechanic that's just a chore? Not saying that anything they say is automatically great, but they're really good game designers and it seems a little dismissive to just assume you know better than them.

 

Like Tim made item durability in Arcanum? It was terrible.

Like Obsidian made crafting in NWN2? It was terrible. In NV? Nope. Still didn't liked it.

I can't know that it will be annoying like you can't be sure that it won't be. But based on my previous experience with item durability in games(i didn't liked it in a single one, not even JA2), i can expect to not like it here either.

 

The only way i can imagine it to work is if it was scripted and not systemic. Have a special monster like dragons that can desrtoy armor. Spells like acid can melt armor.  Have a mage defence corrode weapons that hit it. That adds a tactical element to the battle as when you fight that monster, or that mage defence, you have to take that ability into consideration.  Having every random hit degrade weapons and armor is just irritating, mindless busywork, and the first thing that it will be moded out of the game.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Malekith

[Cultist]

My experience has tought me that your experiecne is wrong.

 

Exceptions prove the rule. Including your rule that if you hate something on principle you will ALWAYS hate it in every instance.

People change. Tastes change. Perceptions change. Even preconceptions can change.

 

You say you hate something on principle - but why does a person hate something on principle? For lack of prior positive experience.

I never said I ALWAYS hate some principle everywhere. I said I hate it in RPGs.

Jagged Alliance - tactical strategy with minor RPG elements. Arcanum, New Vegas and upcoming PE - RPG. I like to see basic human body needs in survival game, but that doesn't mean I would be happy to see them in role-playing or racing game.

I KNOW I cannot see durability in Infinity-like RPG in a positive way, regardless of implementation. For example - you hate time limits, and in the next update Obsidian states that Project Eternity will have a time limit. That is enough for you to know that you would not like it. No matter how it will be implemented it is the same time limit. Remember how Bethesda said, "Fallout will be first person shooter now, you would all like it" - and to this day a lot of people consider that Fallout 3 is just an accident, just like Master of Orion 3, Star Control 3 or Duke Nukem Forever. It's not a matter of positive experience, it's just some aspect that you can't accept in any form.

 

But since you DO accept durability in JA2 that analogy doesn't work since you will have 'fish' in certain foods, so it can't be the ingredient you hate. And the games you list are so different that you cannot compare them, Diablo and Fallout are nothing alike for instance, so not sure why you would differentiate JA from them.

It works in tactical strategy, not RPG. Diablo, Arcanum and Fallout 3, and New Vegas durability system are basically identical.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Cultist

[SunBroSolaire]

 

And we likely will get abilities like those, so what is your point?

You now no longer take crafting for crafting as a power gamer, you take it for item durability reduction.

 

You think the durability bonus will be a greater benefit than actually making new weapons? What are you basing that assumption on? It totally depends on how durability is tuned. Assuming that it will be such a huge advantage that fighters will have to take it to optimize class, seems ludicrous.

[Sensuki]

Crafting [the action] is a one person skill. Only one person in the party needs to have Crafting to craft items. Points in Crafting on other characters do not affect the party's ability to Craft items.

 

Therefore the best person to do the Crafting is the person who benefits the most from the reduction to the rate of Item Degradation. Likely the Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin.

[Cultist]