Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part IV).

[PrimeJunta]

True, the stances are very lifelike. That guy in the green puffy breeches is handling his a bit carelessly though.

 

It's an interesting looking situation actually. Makes you wonder what they're up to. They're clearly waiting for trouble, laying an ambush perhaps, with the matches lit and everything ready, but the guys in the back seem to be in conversation and not paying much attention to what's coming. Hardened veterans who trust their comrades on the lookout to warn them to shut up and look sharp on time?

 

The style isn't my favorite, but the guy can draw and knows what he's drawing, that's for sure.

[HoonDing]

Some armours for the monk:

 

 

 

 

[Jarmo]

 

 

 

One thing's for sure, I certainly wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of a duel with those Polish gentlemen, apparently their saberwork was infamous throughout Europe and beyond.

 

I'm not an expert, mind you, but from what I've read it would seem that a rapier is a far more lethal dueling weapon; using a saber against one is actually putting yourself at a severe disadvantage.

 

Oh and I'll definitely be looking to add some more examples of the Commonwealth designs!

 

 

You're right. The rapier will either kill you, or at least very severely wound you (like pierce your lung or something), or it will do very little. Since the wounds caused by rapiers are so small, there's little damage from each stab, unless the stab is precisely placed in a critical location. A great example of this is the battle of Waterloo, where the English light cavalry used sabres that caused tremendous damage with each swing, but did not necessarily kill very effectively. The French, on the other hand, used thrusting swords for their heavy cavalry, that didn't cause great damage, but could kill with a single well-placed attack. The French soldiers complained about the barbarity of the English sword, actually. 

 

Not an expert either, but I'll add my 0,015 euros anyway.

 

Yea, sabre vs rapier in duel, the rapier has the advantage. But I'd guess the weigh difference ie the speed of the weapon wouldn't be so huge that the difference would be night and day. Those are still pretty light weapons, not heavy hacking swords.

 

In cavalry use the sabre wielders have the advantage, slashes with curved swords are much less likely to get stuck in the opponent.

That's why, overall, cavalry tended to go that way all over the world.

 

The exception being when the opponent is expected to be armored, then the heavier thrusting sword has the advantage again.

Then again, I'd also guess a (light) spear would have the advantage over the thrusting sword (but wouldn't go so nicely with a dress uniform)

[quest1on]

I suppose you should check this video on the rapier vs sabre discussion. Generally, his videos are great.

[Karranthain]

The only western-style (plate) armour is worn by hussars, the rest, like Cossacs (light cavalry) or hajduks (infantry) wore no armour or like pancerni (medium cavalry) wore mail with karwasze (oriental style arm bracers) and misiurkas (helmet/aventail hybrid, also oriental) while using, for example, composite bows. Something like this

 

Good point, but I had the paintings I've posted in mind, friend!

 

Here's another illustration that goes well with the one you've posted:

 

 

 

I suppose you should check this video on the rapier vs sabre discussion. Generally, his videos are great.

 

Thanks for the link!

 

Continuing the discussion - I think that rapier's significant advantage is, aside from its lethality, the reach it provides when lunging.

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

The French soldiers complained about the barbarity of the English sword, actually.

 

Sore losers.

 

[Jarmo]

 

I suppose you should check this video on the rapier vs sabre discussion. Generally, his videos are great.

 

Thanks for the link!

 

Continuing the discussion - I think that rapier's significant advantage is, aside from its lethality, the reach it provides when lunging.

 

 

Unless I'm again forgetting what the heck rapier was (thin long & pointy),

I'd say the main advantage was the combination of  speed (from being light) and reach (from being long),

the lethality would be a happy side effect. (If it even was specially lethal, as compared to a "normal" sword)

[Merlkir]

Rapiers weren't particularly light, they weigh about the same as other one handed swords. The difference is in how the mass is distributed. So they're generally really long and super good at skewering your opponent if you use them right. That's about it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efZLw-tlIOs

[Karranthain]

Just chiming in: I'm really glad we'll have an opportunity to use both the rapier and the saber in PoE!

 

[quest1on]

If you don't mind, I would go back for a little bit to antiquity. Look at this

This are Macedonian phalangites and Cretan archer, two of known to me kinds of soldiers that used both a two-handed weapon and a shield straped to the forearm/hung from the shoulder. I think this is quite neat and would make interesting feature in the game.

[Greensleeve]

If you don't mind, I would go back for a little bit to antiquity. Look at this

 

-snip-

 

This are Macedonian phalangites and Cretan archer, two of known to me kinds of soldiers that used both a two-handed weapon and a shield straped to the forearm/hung from the shoulder. I think this is quite neat and would make interesting feature in the game.

 

The Macedonian second from the right has the most badass helmet I have ever seen. Seriously. It even has a beard!

[Yonjuro]

This are Macedonian phalangites .....

 

 

 Yup, a highly evolved battle tactic perfected by Philip II and expanded upon by his son, Alexander the Great, who made effective use of cavalry in conjunction with the phalanx, flanking and containing the enemy.

 

 The Macedonian sarissa (spear) was about 6 meters (20 feet) long. In the picture you can see the 'business end' of the spears from the first few ranks in front of the formation. A would be defender would need to get past four ranks of them to even have a chance of getting to the people in the front rank who were presenting them with a wall of shields.

 

 It required lots of drilling to get the group to move as a unit. It's interesting that armies still train in group movement (that is, marching in step) even though rifles etc. make such tight formations a lot less necessary than it was in the old days.

[quest1on]

 

This are Macedonian phalangites .....

 

 

 Yup, a highly evolved battle tactic perfected by Philip II and expanded upon by his son, Alexander the Great, who made effective use of cavalry in conjunction with the phalanx, flanking and containing the enemy.

 

 The Macedonian sarissa (spear) was about 6 meters (20 feet) long. In the picture you can see the 'business end' of the spears from the first few ranks in front of the formation. A would be defender would need to get past four ranks of them to even have a chance of getting to the people in the front rank who were presenting them with a wall of shields.

 

 It required lots of drilling to get the group to move as a unit. It's interesting that armies still train in group movement (that is, marching in step) even though rifles etc. make such tight formations a lot less necessary than it was in the old days.

 

The thing I like the most about them is that just like renaissance pikemen had halbardiers/doppelsoldners mixed between them and on the flanks, phalangites had support of more traditional hoplites basically guarding them from attack from any other direction than the one they pointed sarissas.

[Lephys]

Rapiers weren't particularly light, they weigh about the same as other one handed swords. The difference is in how the mass is distributed. So they're generally really long and super good at skewering your opponent if you use them right. That's about it.

You forgot "slashing letters into the clothing of antagonistic forces, for dramatic effect, just before making your exit."

Edited February 12, 2014 by Lephys

[quest1on]

 

Rapiers weren't particularly light, they weigh about the same as other one handed swords. The difference is in how the mass is distributed. So they're generally really long and super good at skewering your opponent if you use them right. That's about it.

You forgot "slashing letters into the clothing of antagonistic forces, for dramatic effect, just before making your exit."

 

I'm pretty sure he used smallsword.

[Karranthain]

Here's an illustration that seems to be a part of the work that Woldan posted on this page:

 

[Monte Carlo]

I like the chicken familiars / animal companions those gun-wielding rangers have.

[Jarmo]

Rapiers weren't particularly light, they weigh about the same as other one handed swords. The difference is in how the mass is distributed. So they're generally really long and super good at skewering your opponent if you use them right. That's about it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efZLw-tlIOs

 

Yea, color me surprised actually. I'd have thought the rapier (and what the heck is a smallsword then) weight to be more in line with a shortsword (even if there never was such a thing). But it's still the same thing really, long reach and real light compared to another sword with similar reach. The broadsword (or whatever the heck it was) in the video was 1/3 shorter and I doubt it'd give any less effective lunge damage.

 

 

---

And yeah, apparently when I say "rapier" I usually mean "smallsword". 

Edited February 13, 2014 by Jarmo

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Rapiers weren't particularly light, they weigh about the same as other one handed swords. The difference is in how the mass is distributed. So they're generally really long and super good at skewering your opponent if you use them right. That's about it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efZLw-tlIOs

 

Yea, color me surprised actually. I'd have thought the rapier (and what the heck is a smallsword then) weight to be more in line with a shortsword (even if there never was such a thing). But it's still the same thing really, long reach and real light compared to another sword with similar reach. The broadsword (or whatever the heck it was) in the video was 1/3 shorter and I doubt it'd give any less effective lunge damage.

 

Yep, from my understanding it's that the weight distribution and the fact that most people try to hold them like fencing weapons that creates the illusion that weapons like broadswords were heavier.  Even two handed swords and longswords did not weigh much more, and were incredibly fast if held right, it's just that the fighting style was completely different to fencing and often involve moves you would never do with a fencing weapon like holding the sword by the blade and using the guard to hook people.  Fencing is more 'TV-friendly'.

[datanoppa]

What kind of evil chicken assault is that, even the bravest warriors are hunked down and plainly in great distress.

 

Nice illustration to be honest.

[Diagoras]

Not sure if these Warhammer pieces have been posted, kick me in the face if they have:

 

Glorious epicness...

 

 

And more down to earth.

 

Edited February 13, 2014 by Diagoras

[quest1on]

Another piece by Angel Garcia Pinto from battle of St. Quentin series, this one showing herreruelo shooting some halebardier.

[PrimeJunta]

Ow, that's gotta sting. You could probably even hit something with one of those things at that range.

[drake heath]

Here's an illustration that seems to be a part of the work that Woldan posted on this page:

 

It's two halfs of a larger picture of the Battle of St. Quentin

 

From a Spanish historical art blog, 

http://angelgpinto.blogspot.com/

Edited February 13, 2014 by drake heath

[Karranthain]

Thanks for the link, it's a gold mine!