Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part IV).

[Merlkir]

Except there's a LOT of Scythian art showing men wearing full on beards and long hair, not just mustaches. (which is a later, very Parthian/Sarmatian fashion)

 

How's that related to armour again?

 

edit: in fact, let's go through your evidence:

 

1) So, as far as I understand it, it's a Scythian coin depicting (or minted by) the king Ateius. The front is clearly meant to be in Greek style, showing the king (?) as Heracles. (lion skin headdress). The back shows a rather hairy archer. For comparison, I attach a coin by Alexander the Great, with the same image of Heracles.

 

  

 

2) Second image is (very well known) a Greek depiction of a TROJAN archer. Not quite knowing what Trojans looked like, the Greek artist made him wear something similar to a Persian/Mede/Scythian dress. That says nothing about the shaving habits of Scythians.

 

3) Yep, that's a Scythian cult figure. 

 

4) This relief is part of a Khmer temple (!!!) and it's from the 7th century (! quite a few centuries too late). (I don't quite see how that's supposed to be a Scythian, or why it would be one. Yes,the cap looks similar and that's about it. Could also be papa Smurf)

 

5) Yep, a pimp dude from the Pazyryk burials. You do realize hair and shaving fashion likely changed through the ages, right? This one's supposedly from around 3rd c. BCE, but Scythians lived long before and after that.

 

6) Yes, a beautiful piece of Scythian art. Know what? here's more! And there are...oh, bearded and hairy Scythians. Oh well.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Scythian_Kul_Oba_Ukrainia.jpg/648px-Scythian_Kul_Oba_Ukrainia.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Scythians_shooting_with_bows_Kertch_antique_Panticapeum_Ukrainia_4th_century_BCE.jpg

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Scythian/Scythian_Art.jpg

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CS%5CC%5CScythian%20art_comb%20from%20Solokha%20kurhan.jpg

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CS%5CC%5CScythian%20art_ritual%20of%20brotherhood%20Kul%20Oba%20kurhan.jpg

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/images/scythians1.jpg

 

7) That's a RECONSTRUCTION made from a skull. How do you know if the skull's owner had a mustache, or a full beard?! Furthermore, the same artist made more of these and some of them have beards:

 

http://www.evpatori.ru/skilur-car-skifov.html

 

Again, I have no idea what kind of agenda you have, but it's silly. 

Edited February 4, 2014 by Merlkir

[obyknven]

blah-blah

1. Lion outfit traditional for descendants of  Heracles in Greek art (arrogant  Alexander pretend to this).  This outfit also common to Scythians by some Greek historians. Probably Alexander just copypaste Scythian appearance for propaganda reasons (Scythian coin is earlier).Your comparision is not proof.

 

2. Scythians not dressed different in Greek art. Again you missed.

 

3. Yep Scythians have lots  of such Idols in VI-V BCE. And this is Scythian art, its how they see own appearance.

4. Google Indo-Scythians. Khmer elite have Indo-Scythian origin and their art reflect this fact. You fail again.

5. Its most ancient pic of mustache. Probably Scythians invent this fashion. Again its Scythian art how they draw herself. Fail.

 

6. O'rly! This is greek art from Panticapaeum. Yep, long beards is greek fashion, they traditionally don't shaved. Probably they just try pictured them as adult mens (for greek consumers).

 

About armor's. For example almost all "Scythian" helmets are not Scythian really (except scaled). They are mostly have North Caucasian or Greek origin and quite rare in Scythia.  Pictured ceremonial king outfit as common for Scythians is very stupid also.

As result we see typical Western ignorance, nothing unusual. Actually we can use works of Western historians only when they talk about history of England, in all other cases its just incredible compilations of bull****.

 

For example Osprey book about Varangian guards ( some pics from this book in this thread also ) causing so many laugh to Russian reenactments and historians.

http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=30932

http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=30741

Their Verdict - this is f**g fantasy in Sergey Zverev approved style.

[Monte Carlo]

^ Jesus Oby, give it a rest.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Oby manages to be even more of a lunatic outside off-topic.

 

Shocking.

[Greensleeve]

Having just scrolled through this entire page, the huge picture dumps are a bitch. How about we do them in spoiler tags in the future?

[Merlkir]

Response to Obyknven, spoilered:
 
 

1. The Heracles in lion's hide motif on coins goes far before Alexander. In fact, the entire Macedonian royal line used it, as they were said to descend from the legendary hero.

The same or similar lion-skinned Herakles image appeared on the coinage of previous Macedonian kings, including Philip II c. 359-336 BC (Sear Greek 6686), Perdikkas III c. 365-359 BC (Sear Greek 1514), Amyntas III c. 393-369 BC (Sear Greek 1510), and Archelaos I c. 413-399 BC (SNG Cop. 507). [/size]

Interestingly, one of the earliest versions (5th century BC from Sicily) shows Heracles with a beard. (so they weren't copying your beardless Scythians very well)

 
Here's an even earlier 6/5th century BC Thracian kind:
 

 
Now, king Atey/Atheios was a 4th century BC contemporary of king Phillip II of Macedonia. Unsurprisingly, he fought a war with Phillip and ended up being killed in it. 
Let's see. Phillip II also minted coins depicting him as Heracles:
 

Here's another Atey coin, showing a ridiculously Greek profile: (and FFS, the Greek influence is obvious, even his bloody name is written in Greek.)

 
Any way I look at it, it's far more likely Atey copied Phillip's coins (with a provable long Macedonian tradition) than the other way around. 
 
2.

"After this, Greek archers start to appear on vase paintings: they retain many elements of Scythian dress, but unlike the generally bearded Scythians, they are shown clean-shaven, as here. The trumpet this figure blows is thesalpinx, blown in battle."

Somehow I trust the British Museum more than your unverified internet-dude-speaking-broken-English claims. 
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/b/black-figured_plate.aspx
Here's another one, probably a Persian. We KNOW Persians wore beards, from their own depictions. But it'd be absurd to say they all shaved all the time, or that being shaved or bearded is a sign of civilization. (unless you're Roman )
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/red-figured_plate.aspx
 
3. Well, yes. It is ONE Scythian who wore these particular clothes and wore a mustache. Doesn't prove mustaches were a holy sign of a true Scythian and that no other types of facial hair were ever worn in Scythia.
4. I admit I did not know of the connection. The point still stands. It's a fairly modern depiction and is far from reliable. (it would make more sense if it actually reflected early Khmer fashion than ancient Scythian one)
5. The Pazyryk horseman is iirc dated around 300 BC. (which is not that early) As to if it's the first ever depiction of a mustache, I can't argue. (but it's an amusing speculation, nothing more)
6. They were found in Scythian burial mounds, somehow I doubt Greeks were the ones comissioning them. I also doubt the Scythians who ordered them would accept depictions of themselves with uncivilized Greek beards. Which reminds me, make up your mind! Are beards typical of barbarians? Or civilized Greeks?
(Also not all of them are from Panticapaeum, the comb is from the Solokha kurhan)
I suppose the Persian king also wanted to mock the Saka and gave their king this pimpin' massive beard just to humiliate him?

 
Want more? Here, two gloriously bearded Scythians on a rhyton from the Gaymanova mound:
 

 
 
The whole point of my disbelief about your post is this: Why on earth would yoou assume men of a fairly loosely defined ancient nation would only shave clean or wear mustaches? 
Now, I fully understand that archaeological reconstructions are often quite inaccurate and that they mix items or clothing from fairly different periods. But this obsession with beards is just bizarre.
I would also admit that Russian and other post-soviet archaeologists have access to material not well known in the west. However, I also have "Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes in the Early Iron Age", which is a 1995 book edited by Jeannine Davis-Kimball, Vladimir A. Bashilov and Leonid T.Yablonsky, to make precisely this kind of exclusive material available to scholars in English.
 
Don't remember them raging about beards though.
 
!! ) Interestingly, I just opened it up. If you have it, turn to page 42. It shows two Scythian stone funerary sculptures similar to what you showed us. (fig 28) One of the men has a pimpin' mustache, yes. The other has a glorious beard.
 
edit: I took a photo for you. Not good quality, sorry! (my phone has a poor camera)
 
http://assurbanipal86.sweb.cz/scythianburialstones.jpg

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2014 by Merlkir

[Karranthain]

[quest1on]

I think we should open another thread about in-game facehair styles inspired by real-world ones.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

For example Osprey book about Varangian guards ( some pics from this book in this thread also ) causing so many laugh to Russian reenactments and historians.

http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=30932

http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=30741

Their Verdict - this is f**g fantasy in Sergey Zverev approved style.

 

Ah, Osprey.  Most of the experts and people with an actual understanding of history I know will advise against reading Osprey for being factually incorrect, in any of their books.  Osprey apparently doesn't care about historical accuracy in their history books, regardless of the culture, so I wouldn't take it as a Western thing there, as they get Western history laughably wrong too.

[Jarmo]

We just got in a pollaxe and two-handed morning star, both of which look like bad news (in a good way).  As with the armor, I think you'll like the base options and where we can "escalate" into fancier weapons over the course of the game.

 

Ah, just rediscovered this bit from the past, where both pollaxes and two-handed morning stars were confirmed.

I very much suspected they'd be in, but happy happy to (re)see it confirmed. Whacking smash!

[FlintlockJazz]

 

pollaxes

All you needed to say to make me die with ecstacy!

[LadyCrimson]

I like that look a lot. Although, as you mentioned, the boots aren't the best.

 

I like the leather type armor/fancy hats posted earlier, too. Especially the hats.

[Greensleeve]

 

We just got in a pollaxe and two-handed morning star, both of which look like bad news (in a good way).  As with the armor, I think you'll like the base options and where we can "escalate" into fancier weapons over the course of the game.

 

Ah, just rediscovered this bit from the past, where both pollaxes and two-handed morning stars were confirmed.

I very much suspected they'd be in, but happy happy to (re)see it confirmed. Whacking smash!

 

 

Yeah, it's going to be fun to see the variety of weapons in PoE. Choosing weapon groups to focus on is going to be hard!

[FlintlockJazz]

If there's not too much of rennaissance or ancient ages armors I think I'll go with what they offer us ... but to be honest I really hate those styles.

 

I prefer generally something like Elerond image posted from DnD styles of armor,  or Nordic visuals, joined by a good old fashioned occidental weapons like claymores.

 

 

 

 

Oneiromancer posted this that are approximately what I'm looking for I think.  Except the boots.

I have to agree with LadyCrimson, this I like alot for some reason I can't quite put my finger on.  The look of it would be perfect for an adventurer.  Simple but effective.

[Nonek]

Hmmm, I like the general aesthetic but i'd want a good mail shirt over that gambeson, and switch that shoulder pad over to the left side to increase the protection on the shield bearing enemy facing side. Also i'd like some leather wrappings around the haft of that spear so that it wouldn't slip in my hands.

[TrashMan]

As someoen who watches a lot of anime and likes anime.... I'm still not particualy fond of redicolous designs.

They have their place, but it is not everywhere and everything is not acceptable simply because it's "fantasy".

 

 

Peopel with a vast knowledge of a subject tend to be more ctitical then the ones that don't have such knowledge, on the account that they notice - conciously or subconciously - a lot of things that are wrong that other people simply don't.

Knowledge forms our perception, the lens trough which we view things.

[Karranthain]

I'll just add another example of pretty nifty fantasy design (this one, in particular, would work quite well for a druid/wizard character I feel):

 

[LadyCrimson]

Never mind the armor, I'm digging that lion mane hair. Or whatever it is.

 

...ok, the armor's not bad either.

[Karranthain]

Never mind the armor, I'm digging that lion mane hair. Or whatever it is.

 

...ok, the armor's not bad either.

 

Due to that, I'm thinking druid is more likely.

 

Though to be fair, it's more of an attire than armour!

[FlintlockJazz]

My first thought upon seeing that picture was "Does he really want to be hit in the groin with a pollaxe?" 

[obyknven]

Scythians

 

 

European Scythians (mens)

 

Early (VI  - V BCE, Greek art, mens )

 

Scythians mens ( V - IV BCE, Greek art)

 

Scythian mens ( V-IV BCE, Scythian idols )

 

War between Persians and Scythians, Asia Minor V BCE

Altay Scythians (V-III BCE).

 

Altay Scythian warrior dress (Red/Blue color scheme is usual for Scythians, Persians, Central Asians)

 

 

[Tsuga C]

I'm really not a big fan of the examples being offered up here... The saracen armour, the platemail. I find it really boring to look at.

*sprays Kiddy-Be-Gone at Candid*

 

I'm sure there's a JRPG out there that caters to your taste, but the overwhelming majority of us in this particular thread have issues with arms and panoplies that we wouldn't want to use in a Renaissance Fair or Hurstwic melee.

[obyknven]

Bit's of "genious" armor reconstructions

 

 

Original - Russian caricature

 

Same guy copypasted to Osprey art.

 

Original - Roman legioner from second Dacian war

suddenly transformed into Sarmatian "Roman"  footman! Correct reconstruction for comparison is here

http://www.roman-glory.com/images/zubkov-gallery/img10.jpg

 

Another fantasy "Roman" from same artist

 

Continue.  This Photo of Roman cavalary reenactment

 

transformed by this artist into:

 

You yet don't understand why he redrawn Romans as Eastern warriors? It's simple really, this guy IRL want drawn Byzantians, but because lack of Byzantian armor examples  he make trick -  add Eastern feelings to Romans and use this Romans  as example of Byzantians! Just genious!

Unique Helmet  from 1 CE on "Byzantian" cavalier from V CE.  Yeah, we want your money this is historic reconstruction, trust to us!

 

Another example. This is typical East European medieval helmet.

 

 

But a lot time passed and aventail  on this helmet melted into homogeneous mass.

 

Some Hungarian artist draw this helmet as this (he just want be original probably  )

 

and Hungarian reincaranators produce such monstrous replicas now
 

 

After this any talk about "realistic" armors in games just hilarious

 

 

[Merlkir]

Schumate's "Sarmatian" reconstruction actually seems spot on, are we even looking at the same relief? I mean...I've been looking at it a lot, considering I wrote my MA thesis on Dacian reconstructions.

Also, "the same" artist is not the same, that's Graham Sumner. And his "fantasy" Romans are all well documented in his book.

 

Trying way too hard there, buddy.

 

Edit: Also, "some reconstructions out there are clearly poorly done, therefore any attempt at realism is futile." is a really really retarded non-argument.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Merlkir

[Woldan]

I'll just add another example of pretty nifty fantasy design (this one, in particular, would work quite well for a druid/wizard character I feel):

 

That dude has the worst eye infection I've ever seen.