Solo Class

[Nirgal]

I wanted to know if there would be  a triple class character as we had at baldur's gate two. I really like the triple class characters because they allow you to role play the game as a single character without missing  any of the habilities of the most important classess. I would specially like a thief/healer/Mage since those are the classess with the most defined unique skills. I know that a big part of the game is the tactical managing of a group of characteres, but the possibility of this kind of class allows to add an extra level of replayability without sacrificing the tactical and dialogue rich non solo play. Mostly because you don't have to assign  too many resources to design this class.  All you would have to do would be to put the xp limit high enough as not to restrict the development of the character.  Or better, to make it so that all three classess would gain experience as if they were three  different characters, each having their own level cap.

 

This class would not be overpowered since you would have to use fewer party members to make it earn experience as a fast as a regular class. it would possibly weaken your party a little bit since you would be concentrating the habilities of three characters in one which would mean less overall HP, and less actions per minute.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Nirgal

[NerdBoner]

there is no multi-classing to begin with...

[Micamo]

My thoughts on this:

 

- Enabling solo play is a laudable thing, but I'm not sure it should be a design goal important enough to potentially detract from non-solo play.

 

- The best way to enable solo play is probably to just make sure every class has enough abilities to make it through the game by themselves: e.g., no locked doors with no key that only a rogue can get open, no enemies that are immune to all magic, etc. Relying on multiclassing as a solution for this is inelegant and makes your progress in the game dependent on your builds: What happens if you come to that locked door you need rogue skills to open, but you haven't taken any rogue levels? Guess you'd better go back and level grind until you can get a few rogue levels, huh? Inquisitor had this problem and I hated that about that game.

 

- Multiclassing is cool, but personally I'd rather see no multiclassing at all than a broken multiclassing system, for either meaning of the word "broken." A system where single-classed characters are always superior is just as bad as a system where single-classed characters are always inferior. And worse than both of them is a setup like 3rd edition D&D where most multiclass combinations are completely worthless unfit characters (needing a multiclass PrC to work, which introduces a host of other problems), and a very small number of combinations are so good you never want to use a single-classed character for that party role (some dips).

 

- On multiclassing, the hardest thing about it is that different multiclassing mechanics are optimal depending on what kind of thing you want your hybrid character to be doing. Here's some examples:

 

-- Perform two party roles at the same time, with the same actions

 

-- Be capable of performing two roles competently, but only actually do one at a time (switching back and forth as necessary)

 

-- Perform only one role, but acquire abilities from a secondary role that complement this main role (e.g., buffs that you only ever use on yourself)

 

-- Perform only one role, taking abilities from classes that provide the same role (like a Fighter/Barbarian) and mixing and matching to make something more specific.

 

- 3E multiclassing mechanics can really only ever do the third and fourth ones well, and even then only in certain cases: For the first and second ones you need either a completely new base class, or a PrC that does what you want. A big part of the problem is that you have to take levels in order, which means you'll have to suck down several levels of crap you don't want to get to the one ability you DO want, which encourages taking one or two level dips in classes. 4E multiclass feats improved this slightly but was still too inflexible. The 4E hybrid system can sometimes do the second well, but as in 3E most hybrids suck, mostly due to MADness (and 4E math assuming min-maxed attribute scores with mostly SAD classes). (I haven't read through the new Dragon magazine rules that were apparently released recently, and thus can't comment on them.)

 

there is no multi-classing to begin with...

Huh, really? I thought that was still up in the air. Ah well.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Micamo

[Nirgal]

Well actually my idea  of multiclassing was the same as non humans had in Baldur's gate 2. Basically all three classes grew simultaneously, each gaining a third of the xp assigned to the character, and each rised levels according to their own class requirements. The only difference I would make would be to make it so that instead of dividing the XP between characters and then dividing it again between classes, I would just consider each separate class to be an individual character so the growth rate of the multiclass character would be at the same pace as the rest of the party. To compensate you could limit the number of members in group. For instance establishing a maximum of 4 characters for a group with a triple class character, instead of 6.

 

The purpose of this would be to have a smaller party with a single character that takes care of more roles, which would also feel more powerful than his/her  companions (which is interesting for me for role playing purposes)

[Sacred_Path]

I certainly hope this game isn't balanced around solo games; unless maybe on ultra easy with all options that could add challenge turned off.

 

But I don't think I need to be worried there. Since the main quest will use level scaling, the one advantage that single characters have in CRPGs (more experience) falls flat.

[Iucounu]

The level-scaling will be only subtle though (for god's sake), so you might still get advantages if you're higher level.

But I think you'll get less experience for weaker opponents, wich counteracts the whole thing a bit. 

 

But be that as it may, I don't think soloing will be possible at all on normal difficulty. In Baldur's Gate, it was only possible because of broken gameplay (like in BG 1 invisibility), and the powerful mage class in BG 2 and TOB. But P:E will have more balanced classes and builds, and there probably won't be much room for cheesing either. 

Edited June 24, 2013 by Iucounu

[NerdBoner]

It's a game with scripted AI, soloing will always be possible unless you need to bring along teammates for plot purposes.

[Oner]

The game is confirmed to be soloable, but it's going to be hard and you'll need the knowledge benefit of previous playthroughs.

[Osvir]

I'm definitely going to try soloing a bit on the harder difficulties for laughs and "just-because-challenge"/"challenge accepted" but I don't expect it to be easy or even doable (or designed with it in mind). I imagine that mobs can be conquered but bosses might get very difficult unless Obsidian is thinking of implementing some sort of GW2 scaling mechanic (more party members = tougher fights).

Thinking about it more, that could even work psuedo-lore-soul... ish.

The more souls that gather up in one spot, the more "volume" of souls there would be? If all of their intents are the same (e.g. to do battle), would that somehow change the balance of the "force"?

Imagine 1 against 1 in a forest dueling honorably against each other with no eyes watching but their own. 2 bodies with 2 souls (and nature and whatnot~ but that's not the point). Now take 6 against 1 and there's suddenly 7 bodies with 7 souls. Could something cause a fight to be "fiercer" when there is more souls present than when there is less? Some sort of "Soul Balance Mechanic" /End of rambles

"Where most gather, there always is 'commotion'. The heart of the largest city stirs like a boiling pot, left right up and down and around around. In the forests of nature there is songs and chirps from all cretin within; In some ways beautiful melodies, in others ways 'noise' and 'unrest'. Yes, indeed, only in One's own heart and in One's own equality will One find the most rest."
- Written by: A suddenly surprising rush of inspiration.

What I wanted to say with this little tidbit is, where "more" gathers, "more" happens. In that sense, would "more" Power gather when you are adventuring? Let's take a Bandit Lord for instance, if you stomp into his camp with a full party of 6, would that cause a larger reaction from the entire camp (and thus triggering a "Bandit Camp vs Party of 6"-Fight) than, let's say, a single (Solo) Fighter appearing in the camp and specifically challenging the Bandit Lord?

- Party of 6 enters camp: Camp fight
- Party of 1 enters camp: 1v1 fight

Aaaand EDIT: Some introspection/reflection, would such a GW2-like-ish Multiplayer scaling translate well to a Singleplayer RP game? Maybe. The real question, I think is, how easy would it be to implement and how could you do it as simple as possible?

Simplest form I can think of:
- Party of 6 enters camp: Spawn more enemies (Triggered by "X Party members?"). Let's say 6 underlings+Boss for simplicity's sake.
- Party of 1 enters camp: Spawn less enemies and/or directly fight Boss. Let's say 1 underling+Boss for simplicity's sake.

In fact, the only thing I can think of being the most problematic when it comes to "Solo"-plays are balancing Boss fights "correctly". So, again, for simplicity's sake the only areas that would "require" some sort of "Solo-Scaling" would be Boss triggered fights and/or areas.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

I certainly hope this game isn't balanced around solo games

It's not they've mentioned that before.

[Sacred_Path]

 

I certainly hope this game isn't balanced around solo games

It's not they've mentioned that before.

 

I must have made myself forget about it.

[Nirgal]

I think i picked the wrong title for my thread. I wanted really to focus discussion on triple class character, as I saw them as a fun way of playing solo. I didn't want to focus on Solo play since I take it as a given.

 

Anyway does anybody knows  what the specifics are in this game for multiclassing and how they are thinking of implementing it? i think as long as XP ceiling is high enough we could have some really interesting posibilities of multiclassing in solo or reduced group play.

[Sacred_Path]

I think i picked the wrong title for my thread. I wanted really to focus discussion on triple class character, as I saw them as a fun way of playing solo. I didn't want to focus on Solo play since I take it as a given.

 

Anyway does anybody knows  what the specifics are in this game for multiclassing and how they are thinking of implementing it? i think as long as XP ceiling is high enough we could have some really interesting posibilities of multiclassing in solo or reduced group play.

AFAWK there will be no multiclassing. However, due to the very flexible nature of PE's character development, I'm sure you could create a mage who wears armor and uses swords with points in lockpicking and trap disarming.

[Nirgal]

 

I think i picked the wrong title for my thread. I wanted really to focus discussion on triple class character, as I saw them as a fun way of playing solo. I didn't want to focus on Solo play since I take it as a given.

 

Anyway does anybody knows  what the specifics are in this game for multiclassing and how they are thinking of implementing it? i think as long as XP ceiling is high enough we could have some really interesting posibilities of multiclassing in solo or reduced group play.

AFAWK there will be no multiclassing. However, due to the very flexible nature of PE's character development, I'm sure you could create a mage who wears armor and uses swords with points in lockpicking and trap disarming.

 

I guess I'll settle for that. If they are anything like the infinity games I'll probably be able to do a bit of modding myself like I did in baldur's gate to make my character more to my liking.

[Iucounu]

It's a game with scripted AI, soloing will always be possible

I don't really see the connection here

[Nirgal]

 

It's a game with scripted AI, soloing will always be possible

I don't really see the connection here

 

I think he means that if the AI is scripted, you know what the opponent is going to do during the second playthrough, so the difficulty levels is not as high. Therefore Soloing is simpler,

[Osvir]

 

It's a game with scripted AI, soloing will always be possible

I don't really see the connection here

 

 

The whole point of a multi-class is to have a character that is able to handle different situations, in my opinion.

 

What do you do if you play a Solo-Fighter and you encounter an enemy that is immune to physical attacks? However, I don't think or believe that would be a problem for a PE Solo-Fighter. I hope every class has some sort of ability to use some sort of trademark magic. The Fighter's magic library might just not be as large or even near potent as a Wizard's magic library and potent (IF the system works in any way like this).

 

Will the tools be available for my character to handle different situations? I believe/hope there will be (that's just speculation). In that sense, overcoming the AI shouldn't be too hard in theory, if one abides to the rules and takes logical tactical & strategic decision-making into account.

[Karkarov]

I have no idea what the multi classing style of the game will be, people are saying it won't be allowed, that's fine with me.  Personally multi classing shouldn't exist in my mind, you should be what you are then at specific moments should get the chance to "refine" your skills and progress in different ways.  But you should not be able to stop being a fighter and suddenly be a full on mage.  It doesn't make sense in D&D, it doesn't make sense period.

 

That out of the way... going solo should not be balanced around, or even supported.  If it turns out you can solo the game with the right game settings and playstyle, fine, whatever.  But if it were outright impossible to solo the game I wouldn't be bothered.  This is not Skyrim, it is a real time with pause based isometric rpg, and half the point (or more) has always been that you would have a party.

[Iucounu]

 

 

It's a game with scripted AI, soloing will always be possible

I don't really see the connection here

 

I think he means that if the AI is scripted, you know what the opponent is going to do during the second playthrough, so the difficulty levels is not as high. Therefore Soloing is simpler,

 

..but not necessarily simple enough. Take for instance the final fight in TOB against Amelysan, and try to win it with a single fighter on normal difficulty. Well ok, you might be able to beat her with an archer, by constantly running away and shooting at her. But I consider that broken gameplay too. Heck, you can even beat Ascension with that tactic.

 

 

 

It's a game with scripted AI, soloing will always be possible

I don't really see the connection here

 

 

The whole point of a multi-class is to have a character that is able to handle different situations, in my opinion.

 

What do you do if you play a Solo-Fighter and you encounter an enemy that is immune to physical attacks? However, I don't think or believe that would be a problem for a PE Solo-Fighter. I hope every class has some sort of ability to use some sort of trademark magic. The Fighter's magic library might just not be as large or even near potent as a Wizard's magic library and potent (IF the system works in any way like this).

 

Will the tools be available for my character to handle different situations? I believe/hope there will be (that's just speculation). In that sense, overcoming the AI shouldn't be too hard in theory, if one abides to the rules and takes logical tactical & strategic decision-making into account.

 

I'm with you there, but I think it's also a question of raw power differences. If you take the final fight, a single level 12 character must be able to beat the opponents that were first and foremost designed to fight a group of perhaps six level 10 characters.  This requires a system that allows an experienced player to make a build that far exceeds the power of a build an unexperienced player can come up with. I'm all for that, but I think it will be hard in P:E, considering there is no such a thing as multiclassing, so you're more limited in your builds. 

Edited June 25, 2013 by Iucounu

[Iucounu]

bla

Edited June 25, 2013 by Iucounu

[Nirgal]

I have no idea what the multi classing style of the game will be, people are saying it won't be allowed, that's fine with me.  Personally multi classing shouldn't exist in my mind, you should be what you are then at specific moments should get the chance to "refine" your skills and progress in different ways.  But you should not be able to stop being a fighter and suddenly be a full on mage.  It doesn't make sense in D&D, it doesn't make sense period.

 

That out of the way... going solo should not be balanced around, or even supported.  If it turns out you can solo the game with the right game settings and playstyle, fine, whatever.  But if it were outright impossible to solo the game I wouldn't be bothered.  This is not Skyrim, it is a real time with pause based isometric rpg, and half the point (or more) has always been that you would have a party.

I don't think you should be such a purist. Soloing is usually an added feature. It doesn't take away from group play and the game isn't suppose to be balanced around it. And regarding what  you should or should not be able to do, that seems to me more a personal opinion than anything else. Many D&D game have had versatile characters. In fact my suggestion is simply a slightly modified version of what was already available at previous infinite engine games.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Nirgal

[Jarmo]

Bit hard to speculate now when we don't yet know the play or the class abilities... but lets anyway!

 

First, I'd guess the solo success will rely on gaming the game a bit and knowledge of what's coming up next,

ie, you know you'll be ambushed and rushed in the next room, so you set up a humongous fire bomb trap beforehand and lure them in...

 

Mage with fighting skills is definitely one possibility, warm them up with a boom and finish with the sword once the spells are out. 

Maybe with thievery skills or maybe you'll just need to let half of the available treasure and some missions go.

 

Or maybe a pure mage with boom-boom-boom-invisibility tactics, repeat as much as necessary. Sleep a lot.

 

Cipher or chanter... no idea. Maybe they'd work?

 

IF there are traps and such, a thief could well solo the game, maybe.

Talk your way out of trouble, give bribes, give up loot, pass some encounters, use traps and poisons against the mandatory opponents,

disappear mid fight and reappear after laying more traps.

 

Guessing a pure fighter class might be the toughest, as just about always.

[Lephys]

It's a game with scripted AI, soloing will always be possible unless you need to bring along teammates for plot purposes.

I just imagined an Adventure game scenario in which you walk into a scene, and some villain appears, or some trap triggers, and goes all "PREPARE TO DIE!", and you only have a certain amount of time to select one of your companions from your inventory of items to use properly in the scene to shut down the trap or thwart the opposition. *snicker snicker...*

 

I love mental images. ^_^

 

"Thank goodness I brought this Khelgar! *Throws the Khelgar at the Evil Wizard, breaking his Wand of Evil Power*

 

"Yeah, you can't get past this part if you don't have a Khelgar. You just die, 'cause you can't break the Evil Wizard's Wand of Evil Power, u_u"

[Tsuga C]

To each his own, but I've never quite understood the appeal of wanting to ignore the companions and go about your business all by yourself. It seems to me that you're missing out on much of the most meaningful aspect of a cRPG--roleplaying your character via interactions with fellow party members.

[radioactivelullaby]

I can understand going for a solo-run of the game after you've played through the game once (or several times), and you want to sort of test yourself, see if you can beat all the challenges by minute planning and preperation.

personally though, i don't think i would do it...perhaps when i was younger, but i simply don't have time for it now.