Lebronnnnnnnnnnn Jamessssssss !

[alanschu]

That being said, Bill Russel as great as he was, he's overrated precisely because of his 11 Championships. I'd take Abdul-Jabbar or Chamberlain over him any day of the week. And Robinson, and Olajuwon, and Ewing, and Shaq.

 

I used to think this, but I've started to come around on Bill (who was still a phenomenal player).  Russell found ways to win, and was prototypical in his "making his teammates better."  I still remember his recount of talking about Don Nelson joining the team, a player who was close to being out of the league for not being a well rounded player.  Russell went up to him and basically said something along the lines of "I know people are on you about not being a good rebounder.  Well, I'm telling you, you don't need to worry about rebounding anymore.  I'll get the rebounds, and you do the things that you're good at to help the team win, okay?"

 

I'm not as big on Ewing, and while I loathed Shaq through the 90s, I have to concede he was full on beast mode in the early 21st Century.  But I don't think I'd take Chamberlain over Russell.  Chamberlain was more physically gifted, and even more talented, than Russell, but I don't think his focus was ever really on winning.  The biggest knock on Shaq was, IMO, he wasn't as great as he could have been (most of his rivalry with Kobe is that Kobe was a gymrat, spending 27 hours a day practicing, while Shaq coasted on his physicality a lot more - the league also so a dearth of competitive centers with Hakeem being well past his prime, Ewing gone, and Robinson never fully recovering from his injury). 

 

Olajuwon is one of my all time favourites though, and Kareem was all skill and grace, and a great professional to boot.  Russell may have had some great teams, but I think he was the key cog in what made that team so great (by the time he won his 11th championship, he was the only player still remaining from the first championship).  Although, Bill was still pretty physically gifted as well.  Man was still very strong and could jump like nobody's business.  Here's a fun one :D

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc

 

 

And now for some Dream lovin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GCyU0sKxqI

Edited June 23, 2013 by alanschu

[Leferd]

I can see where you are going.

 

Russell was a beast defensively and on the boards. But his career FG% was .440 (for a center!) and he averaged in the mid teens ins PPG.

 

Let's say he is reincarnated and playing modern era. He's 6'9" and I can't see him stopping Someone like Shaq in the paint. Ewing will draw him outside of the paint and hit all sorts of mid range J's and turnaround J's and fadeaways. Good luck guarding the Dream Shake. Robinson has Russell's defensive abilities and an offensive repertoire.

 

Wilt for all his flaws and extracurricular activities couldn't beat the Celtics not because Russell was better, but because he didn't have Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, Nellie (my all time favorite coach btw), and especially Red Auerbach in his corner. He had no one else on the Warriors and with the Lakers, he had only Jerry West.

[Hurlshort]

Championships are important to LBJ's legacy because he went to the Heat.  If he stayed with his home town and was surrounded by average talent, then he'd get more of a pass on those.  That being said, winning the last two games against the Spurs was huge.  I think he needs one more to silence all the critics, but he's well on his way.  

[alanschu]

Eh, don't forget Elgin Baylor (who was replaced by Gail Goodrich when the Lakers finally did win), and *only* Jerry West undersells Jerry quite a bit IMO.

 

I don't know if I'd say that Shaq is any more physically imposing than Wilt (though you could argue that no one shut down Wilt, either), and it's not like Russell had all of those players his entire career (Only one other player has double digit rings.  Sam Jones has 10, but 4 of them were as a player coming off the bench), and I wouldn't have actually included a player like Don Nelson (Chamberlain certainly had no shortage of teammates that could contribute with Nelson's capability on his teams: Paul Arizin in particular was also a Hall of Famer.  Although his SFW days were not particularly strong).

 

Wilt has the unfortunate legacy of some utterly bizarre decisions.  He took only one shot in the second half of the the 1968 ECF Game 7 against the Celtics (after being up 3-1 too), and scored a mere 14 points with 4 FGM.  For a guy that averaged 22 FGA a game, either Boston did a magnificent job of shutting down one of the most dominant players in the game (which undermines his dominance, IMO),

 

 

As for "Robinson has Russell's defensive abilities," the problem with that is always trying to compare against different eras.  I think people have a tendency to overstate the influence of sport evolution (which, I feel, has a greater influence on the lower tier players than the superstars), and wouldn't be surprised if players like Bill and Wilt could still excel in the modern game (doubly so if they grew up in the era, and weren't just suddenly transplanted into it).

 

On some level, I can concede that there's some superstar evolution, in that the superstars of a day often inspire the superstars of tomorrow.  I admit, however, that I probably understate Robinson and Ewing somewhat, in part because of their lack of success (at least while being top dog, in Robinson's case).  To Robinson's credit, however, he did show a very Russell like tendency in that he saw Duncan was magnificent, and basically let the Spurs become Duncan's team.  A lot like Bill, David didn't seem to have any sort of ego to get in the way of team success, though it didn't hinder David's abilities.

 

 

Another great one (that I didn't really get to see, sadly).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgPpTvX86n8

 

Larry's awareness is Greztky-like haha.  I love his hustle too.  He also once scored 47 points using only his left hand XD

[Leferd]

You're right about Elgin Baylor. Forgot about him.

 

At least no one here has been mentioning Kobe as a player in the same level as LBJ and MJ.

 

PS

 

Don Nelson is my Joe Shlabotnik.

[alanschu]

Kobe is a fantastic player, and he really helped cement his legacy by leading his team to the two extra titles in 09 and 10.  To me, he's the player that I feel is most "victim" to trying to be like Mike in a variety of his mannerisms, and even how he plays the game in a lot of ways.  He'll put up some fantastic stats because of his early career start too, but falls victim to a variety of detriments, such as when he stubbornly just stopped shooting to prove a point as he team got blown out in back to back games.

 

Kobe still has the ability to be a better player when properly pushed, which Nash successfully did for a streak where he said Kobe is a better passer, and under utilizes his passing ability.

[Malcador]

Basketball players pretend they're hurt. Hockey players pretend they're not. 

 

 

Good series, but I don't understand how anyone could watch the NBA finals over the NHL finals.

What is it with you hockey people and NBA bashing, I wonder. Been seeing a lot of that lately.

[ShadySands]

I like Kobe... maybe not as a person but he's got a great work ethic and drive. He is a great scorer maybe one of the greatest BUT I wouldn't put him at the same level as James. Though if James had Kobe's determination I'd probably put him above Jordan  

[Volourn]

"Championships are important to LBJ's legacy because he went to the Heat.  If he stayed with his home town and was surrounded by average talent, then he'd get more of a pass on those."

 

Are you kidding me? Did you not watch the last two or three seasons in Cleveland? He was absolutely crucified for not winning a championship there.

 

Lebron winning 10 championships won't stop the morans from bashing him.

 

 

"Though if James had Kobe's determination I'd probably put him above Jordan   :p"

 

James has as much determination as either of those players. It's why he was able to imrpove his entire game.It's why he was able to beat the Spurs in game 7 with his 'weak' point of jump shooting. Most people will give up after the horrible way he's been smeared. You don't get to his (or Jordan or Kobe's) level by having a lack of dtermination. It's ridiculous to think he has none.

 

 

"What is it with you hockey people and NBA bashing, I wonder. Been seeing a lot of that lately."
 

Many hockey fans are Kanadians and most Kanadians are bigots who loathe anything that can be seen as 'non Kanadian'.

 

Thankfully, I am enlightened enoguh to see the beauty in both hockey and basketball.

[alanschu]

Since Mr. Robinson was mentioned

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaIWpDRQvk

 

 

Super athletic both in terms of strength and speed.  And stupendously classy to boot!  Exploded into the league as well, being named to the Dream Team after only being in the league for a few seasons (although to be fair, a player like Olajuwon wasn't eligible).

Edited June 24, 2013 by alanschu

[ShadySands]

even though nobody mentioned him, one of my favorites

 

Dikembe Mutombo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Xc0HALrWrXs

 

The blocks, the voice, the finger wave, and he saved the world

[Hurlshort]

 

Basketball players pretend they're hurt. Hockey players pretend they're not. 

 

 

Good series, but I don't understand how anyone could watch the NBA finals over the NHL finals.

What is it with you hockey people and NBA bashing, I wonder. Been seeing a lot of that lately.

 

 

This is the only post I've seen on this forum that did so.  But they tend to be at odds for a lot of reasons.  

 

1.  NHL and NBA run at the same time.  Other sports overlap, but you don't have the playoffs happening at the same time.  That means they compete heavily for audiences.  

 

2.  The NBA is the only sport the NHL can compete with in the US.  In the US, NBA is #3 and NHL is #4, so NHL fans are always trying to push for more exposure to help their sport move up.  This is fueled by my first point, as when you get a market with both types of teams, they have to compete for TV time.

 

3.  As a hockey player, the fouls in basketball are hard to understand.  Playing basketball as a kid was always confusing, what I considered good defense everyone else called fouling.  Hockey is simply a different type of physicality.  I am not saying basketball isn't physical, I'm just saying it is very different.  I imagine a basketball player probably has the same difficulty adjusting to hockey penalties.  In theory they should have a lot in common, but the rules are incredibly different. 

[alanschu]

Haha, Dikembe was a good guy, but there were some people that seemed to think he was some superb all-star player year in and year out haha.  Still, he was an excellent player as long as he wasn't the "goto guy" haha.  (i.e. I think he'd fit in nicely in place of a Luc Longley or a Bill Cartwright on Chicago's teams, but was not on the same level as the elite centers of his time... and man would that be kinda scary actually as Mount Mutombo was scary on the glass and defensively).

 

 

Although I think Mutombo would be a more highly regarded center today, as centers have kind of fallen from grace.  And yes, his video game was balls out hilarious haha.  You know you can't take yourself too seriously if you're a part of that, and I like it when guys don't take themselves too seriously

 

 

SPeaking of a "tier below" type of players that were still very, very good: Mark Price!  (The pass a 3:00 was fantastic!)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo

 

A very similar game to Stockton IMO, just not quite on Stockton's ridiculously elite level in terms of vision and awareness.  Was probably a slightly better shooter though.

 

It was too bad he ended up mired with injuries (and didn't get paired up with an all world power forward... hahaha)

Edited June 24, 2013 by alanschu

[Leferd]

Mark Price was a pretty good player and one of the all time great shooters. Unfortunately for him, he played in an era where there were just so many more point guards more talented than him.

 

Magic Johnson

John Stockton

Isaiah Thomas

Tim Hardaway

Gary Payton

Kevin Johnson

Jason Kidd

 

I'll give him the nod over Mark Jackson and Muggsy Bogues. And Steve Nash hadn't really established himself until Price was out oef the league.

 

It's kinda funny that people compare Stephen Curry to Steve Nash. It's a pretty good comparison but I think it's more apt to call Curry the rich man's Mark Price.

 

The Late 80's Early 90's Cavalier teams were pretty good. Price actually had pretty good low post talent to work with actually. Larry Nance, Brad Daugherty, and John "Hot Rod" Williams. Plus complement that with deadeye shooters like Price, Steve Kerr, Craig Ehlo, and Danny Ferry, and they had a very solid inside out game.

 

Too bad they ran against the Celtics, Pistons, and the Bulls.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Leferd

[ShadySands]

I just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying how much more international the game has become in the last decade or two 

 

As far as the whole hockey/basketball thing

[Leferd]

Hahaha!! I Remember that cartoon! Gretzky was always hungry and eating something!

 

There were some great international players during that era as well.

 

Drazen Petrovic

Arvidas Sabonis

Oscar Schmidt

Sarunus Marciulionis

Toni Kucoc

Dino Radja

Vlade Divac

Detlef Schrempf

Rik Smits

And above all else, Manute Bol

[alanschu]

Yeah watching that Price footage reminded me a lot of Stephen Curry.  If you buy into the Advanced stats, Price is right there with players like Stockton for PER, exceeds players like Isiah (by a pretty comfortable margin), and even flirts with some players like Kobe (although Kobe has stand out seasons far beyond this).  Stockton crushes in Win Shares though.  Though I wouldn't pick Tim Hardaway over Price.  Or even Gary Payton, if we exclusively consider the seasons that Price and Payton were in the league.  By the time Jason Kidd came around, however, Price was already on his way out of the league unfortunately.

 

The problem with Price was injuries (never played full seasons) and lack of team success, however.  Even things like Win Shares Price comes out on top over Isiah.  Isiah just has that mystique that comes with the high profile performances he put up, whereas Price was always quiet and, of course, didn't have the team success (in large part because of Isiah's Pistons).

 

Although I'm a bit of the mind that Isiah is a little bit overrated (although should still be rated highly).  Mostly because I hear people talking about how Isiah should have been a shoo-in for the Dream Team over someone like Stockton.  But I couldn't disagree more, Stockton was already regularly outperforming Isiah on the court by that time, and it was even reflected in his appearances in the All NBA team listings by that time as well.

 

I think Stockton suffered somewhat by being so low key.  He was very, very little flash.  Just dogged determination and efficiency.  I personally think Stockton is probably only behind The Big O and Magic as top PG of all time, and depending on the circumstances of the team, I think compelling arguments could be made for why he would be considered above them.

 

 

Since he came up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myMvojT6zIc

 

 

I love how efficient Stockton is.  No real flash to his game.  I don't even think he attempted to dribble between his legs in his career   Just plain ol' crossovers with great first step and fantastic anticipation.  Such a smart player!  Only Nash came close to that type of package, and not with nearly the long term consistency.

 

EDIT: Love the stutter step at 1:55!

Edited June 24, 2013 by alanschu

[ShadySands]

Manute Bol! The best 7'7" shot blocking, 3 point shooting center ever 

 

I read somewhere that this finals had the most non-American players ever with 9 international players and 8 of them on the Spurs. 

 

Manu Ginobili (Argentina)

Tony Parker (France)

Boris Diaw (France)

Nando De Colo (France)

Patty Mills (Australia)

Aron Baynes (Australia)

Cory Joseph (Canada)

Tiago Splitter (Brazil)

 

Stockton was great and it's a shame he never got a ring but I can't think of a situation where I would pick him over Magic. I mean a 6'9" point guard? That's a match up nightmare. 

 

 

Sorry couldn't resist posting the tallest and shortest point guard going head to head

Edited June 24, 2013 by ShadySands

[alanschu]

Ah Manute....  He was such a gangly guy.  I swear 2/3s of his height was his legs!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSfBRAIT4eg

[Bos_hybrid]

At least no one here has been mentioning Kobe as a player in the same level as LBJ and MJ.

 

I'm not Kobe biggest fan, but the man is a legend. 34 and avg 27.3ppg, absurd. IMO he has been unlucky not to have a few more MVP rings. The guy has been a force for over a decade, and looks like he could go a few more years.

 

I also miss big C's after Shaq there really hasn't been a Centre that has owned the paint and terrified the opposition. I think Oden could of, if his knees didn't fail on him. And of course Yao, but again injuries held him back.

[alanschu]

Hmmm, I don't know if I would say "absurd" as most of the top point getters in league history are still able to put up really high numbers at 34 (I don't consider 34 to really be all that old - that could be the 32 year old in me talking though).

 

Karl Malone

Bernard King (!!! haha)

Michael Jordan

 

Some players were super close too, such as Dominique Wilkins (26 ppg) and Olajuwon's scoring dropped IMO mostly because Barkley joined his team (went from 26.9 ppg to 23.2 ppg over a season seems a bit steep of a drop).

 

That being said, scoring 27.3 ppg at any age is no small feat, but Kobe is a scorer that doesn't rely on pure athleticism anymore, and is a very smart offensive player.  Still, he's chugging along at a pretty consistent rate.  Most impressive was doing the same as the previous year, averaging 2.5 less shots per game.  But yeah, he is in a pretty unique club of still scoring that high at his age.  I may have missed some others, but then, not a whole lot of people have been consistently huge scorers like he has.

 

 

Wasn't sure if I'd be able to find any videos of Mr. King! 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN046jzbThE

Edited June 24, 2013 by alanschu

[Malcador]

Many hockey fans are Kanadians and most Kanadians are bigots who loathe anything that can be seen as 'non Kanadian'.

 

Thankfully, I am enlightened enoguh to see the beauty in both hockey and basketball.

 

Would have to agree with that. No matter how funny the fouls in basketball are, doesn't come close to hockey's 'fighting'.

[Amentep]

"Its poor sportsmanship"

 

No, it isn't.

Oh yes it is!

 

The intent of the personal fouls is quite clear; exploiting that for an advantage is poor sportsmanship.

[Leferd]

Hmmm...Price's PER and WS are impressive and am a little stunned at how favorable they are when compared to Isiaiah and Hardaway.

 

Still...he doesn't pass the eyeball or contemporary testomonial test. I'll concede that he could be better than Isaiah -never really liked the guy but Hardaway is a different animal. Pound for pound he was the toughest dude on the court. No one was quicker or could breakdown a man with a crossover like Hardaway. He was also a great teammate and was very coachable. He was like Westbrook without the baggage. Best streetballer to play in the NBA - his trash talk is legendary. Hardaway destroyed players like Price on a regular basis. Plus the Run TMC Warriors were the funnest team to watch...EVER.

[alanschu]

I was surprised at how high Price rated in both PER and WS as well, and I'll agree that he struggled with the eyeball test as well.  Though for myself, I missed out on the run TMC days for Hardaway, so I was only typically exposed to Timbug's post achilles play (which, while still impressive, lacked the explosiveness I saw in highlights of the "killer crossover")

 

I was a big fan of Chris Mullin though.  Another Dream Team member that many incorrectly assume was on the team simply to make sure it had more white guys... XD

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7mQ9jHSGAE