Solving The Rest Problem: Limited resting, or respawning enemies?

[Micamo]

The Infinity Engine games had a big problem - the player's ability to rest at will, with almost no limitations or consequences, trivialized the game's strategic layer.

*raises hand*

 

This wasn't a problem. I've never once played a CRPG where it felt like the combat was anything other than time-wasting filler that got in the way of me enjoying the parts of the game I actually liked. It's my least favorite part of all of them. The last thing I want is a more involved "strategic layer" to get in the way of my fun.

[SunBroSolaire]

 

The Infinity Engine games had a big problem - the player's ability to rest at will, with almost no limitations or consequences, trivialized the game's strategic layer.

*raises hand*

 

This wasn't a problem. I've never once played a CRPG where it felt like the combat was anything other than time-wasting filler that got in the way of me enjoying the parts of the game I actually liked. It's my least favorite part of all of them. The last thing I want is a more involved "strategic layer" to get in the way of my fun.

 

Oy. What have you thought of the PE updates so far?

[eschaton]

 

Huh, so rogues will do the most dps.

Actually, i got the impression that Rogues are good for spike damge: E.G, they can do a LOT of damage in a short while if backstabing an unaware foe, but they can't maintain their offense for long, and they can't do much damage if it's not against an otherwise occupied foe, and they are also very squishy.

 

Sounds pretty similar to the utility of rogues (if they weren't Swashbucklers) in the BG series.  Mainly useful for hitting spellcasters before they could get to you, and sometimes sneaking up on ranged characters who would otherwise fill you with arrows.  

 

If the game utilizes sentries well (and I think it should, given they were even in Icewind Dale II), then taking out a sentry would be another logical use of a rogue.

[Dream]

The Infinity Engine games had a big problem

 

Says you.

[Malekith]

 

The Infinity Engine games had a big problem - the player's ability to rest at will, with almost no limitations or consequences, trivialized the game's strategic layer.

*raises hand*

 

This wasn't a problem. I've never once played a CRPG where it felt like the combat was anything other than time-wasting filler that got in the way of me enjoying the parts of the game I actually liked. It's my least favorite part of all of them. The last thing I want is a more involved "strategic layer" to get in the way of my fun.

 

Then what's your opinion of the IE games? Except PS:T obviously.

[Micamo]

Oy. What have you thought of the PE updates so far?

We haven't seen much of the important stuff yet, as far as I'm concerned. A scrap of lore here, a piece of concept art there. I could care less about the technical and mechanical stuff we've mostly seen so far. As for what we've gotten, I think it stinks too much of Forgotten Realms, but there's enough good there that I'm still expecting it to be a good game I'll enjoy, about on par with Dragon Age. That opinion is subject to change as we see more, however.

 

Then what's your opinion of the IE games? Except PS:T obviously.

Honestly? I couldn't get into them. Icewind Dale bored me and I found Baldur's Gate insulting, though to be fair I haven't finished either one (nor have I played IWD2 or BG2). My excitement for P:E is entirely from its Ps:T influences; Influences I've sadly yet to see (and I'm afraid won't be there now that Tides is there to fill the "Torment Successor" role).

[JR.9613]

I'm all for random events taking place and stuff, but not scripted respawned enemies I don't think. That would just be a bit of monotony. They did say there were gonna be skills for avoiding random encounters on the worldmap or something.

 

If it makes sense for an area to refill after you clear it, by all means fill it back up. But if it doesn't then yeah nah.

 

I agree with this completely.

A cave of goblins re-spawning after a few days would be great and (in my opinion) add to the immersion of the game. However, re-spawning enemies in the middle of a dungeon wouldn't be realistic (as reinforcements perhaps, but not for every single dungeon), and (again, in my opinion) would most likely only exist to create an illusion of more content.

As for random events, I would prefer them to make a little sense and tie in without the story of whichever area they take place in, rather than there being random bandit attacks that take place in between fast travels locations.

 

To prevent resting abuse, maybe a once per 24-hour (in game) rest that fully healed your party (and restored abilities) would work? That probably wouldn't completely resolve any issues with resting, but it might help. Any thoughts on that?

[Sensuki]

They said they are most likely never going to talk about the story, so PS:T influences probably won't be apparent until you're playing the game.

 

Good choice too IMO. I feel that sometimes I know a bit too much going in.

[Lephys]

What's the difference between being able to rest anywhere or being able to rest unlimited times in a nearby designated rest spot? It just takes a bit more time. There needs to be a harder limit.

Ehh, I think this is the turning point in between "no limit" and "limit." The whole point, as it were. There need to be sufficient consequences in place, so that efficient use of your health and other such resources provides distinctive benefits from just running around swinging at things willy-nilly. However, ultimately, this is a game. What are you going to do if you can't replenish your health and you die? Reload and try again. I'm not talking about meta-gaming. I'm talking about hard failure. If your party is dead, you literally cannot "continue" from that point. So you have to rewind and continue from a previous point, OR you have to just quit the game and never play it again. So, ultimately, I don't think the goal is to impose such a hard limit that you can run into a dead end, because, ultimately, there is no dead end, unless you happen to be voluntarily playing in Iron Man Mode.

 

So, yeah. It's a fine line to walk, but one thing I think that's important to keep in mind is that there's a cost either way. Just because you LIKE resting everywhere doesn't mean it costs the gameplay something. And just because you like having extreme limits doesn't mean that doesn't also cost the gameplay something. "All things in moderation," right? And what is moderation? It's finding the best point between two extremes. It's not always right in the middle, but simply picking one endpoint or the other is always going to be an extreme. You can't move toward one thing without moving away from the other, and both are necessary in some capacity.

 

While I'm still a big fan of contemplating and analyzing the crap out of this in an effort to find the best possible solution, I think limiting resting to only certain areas (and simply implementing that in a non-extreme way) is the best solution. You never CAN'T rest, but you can't just rest with such unimpeded convenience that you literally negate the threat of any state of being between "dead" and "100% tip-top shape" toward your continued progress. You simply have to put forth a little bit of extra effort (travel back to a rest place, maybe head to town and come back). And really, that just balances against the effort you could've put into making more efficient use of your health and abilities in combat. And if that sounds harsh, keep in mind that the game should be properly balanced so that the combat encounters (and the spans between rest spots) shouldn't require extreme levels of party-management efficiency just to not run out of health. Even accounting for luck (or lack thereof) should still result in a range of tension between rest spots, as in "Oh, hey, I still had 40% health on everyone this time!" or "Oh, that was close, I was down to like 10% health with the party, and Steve was dead." So, assuming the game is well-balanced in that respect, you shouldn't be able to have a tough time of things getting between rest spots without just being ultra lazy. And the game shouldn't support a complete lack of effort. That's what cheats are for.

 

A game is inherently a challenge, to some extent, and you can't have a challenge without effort being mandatory. I have no interest in forcing some crazy high amount of challenge, but I do wish to avoid preserving challenge, in the appropriate amount (as set by your difficulty choice).

[Gfted1]

I wonder how they will indicate in game when you are in a rest spot. Perhaps a conveniently placed campfire along the path? A flashy thing on your map?

[Gumbercules]

Josh Sawyer said that they're balancing the game for a high difficulty first, then adjusting it down for easier difficulty levels (http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/468894358070905795). I'm wondering if this can apply to strategic considerations like resting besides just individual tactical battles.

 

It's a tricky balance, because for this type of sprawling, story-heavy, choice & consequence RPG, you can't just take the game-punches-you-in-the-face approach of shorter, story-light games like Dark/Demon Souls, FTL, or the various roguelikes, and tell players who suck at the game to nut up and deal with it. Beginning from that position and then scaling down for the storygamers sounds appealing, but in this type of situation it might mean just getting rid of a game mechanic, and I wonder if that would be perfectly acceptable to those who want an easier game, or whether it would make it seem like the game was too shallow? Given that this is a sprawling game meant for a variety of RPG players, is it best to have a "Limit Rest Frequency, Y/N?" checkbox to toggle, or does that run the risk of making the game unbalanced or under-designed for one or both types of players?

[Nonek]

 

Hopefully you're right Infinitron, and it's limited to attempted assassinations.

Eh it is just going to be like a WoW rogue.  Lots of prep, perfect positioning, unload with a set of specific skills.... then start prepping again so in 30-40 seconds you can do damage again.  Meanwhile the guy with the two hander does steady reliable damage to multiple enemies the entire time.  On a "pure damage" number crunch the two hander guy probably wins.... but the Rogue will still be better for one on one bursts of massive damage at a short time.  In other words two hander is for trash killing, rogue is for precision strike on high threat target.

 

 

I don't get this, a two handed sword deals much more damage than a dagger against one person. I don't know anything about MMO's because I don't play them, but I know how steel works and a two handed sword doesn't affect multiple people when you hit one.

 

Edit: Does Warcraft have a different set of physical laws governing mass and impetus? Sorry for the derail but this sounds utterly idiotic, I thought Eternity was going to have some authenticity to its arms and armour, not MMO rules.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Nonek

[Micamo]

They said they are most likely never going to talk about the story, so PS:T influences probably won't be apparent until you're playing the game.

 

Good choice too IMO. I feel that sometimes I know a bit too much going in.

Not spoiling the story is fine, but I feel there are things they could (and should) be talking about that aren't spoilers. It's not a spoiler for Torment, for example, to dig out the old Planescape books and read about Sigil or the Planes. What are the different cultures of the Dyrwood like? What are the main conflicts that drive this world? What are the main towns and cities we'll be visiting, and what are they like? What are our companions' backstories, and what are their personalities like? Who are the major NPCs we're going to be meeting, and what are they like?

 

Like, here's just one example of something I'd like to talk about: We already know that firearms are starting to become viable weapons and this is threatening wizards' position at the top of the food chain. Are there luddite wizards who are trying to stop the social change to keep their positions of power? Can I be one of them? How about more open-minded wizards who embrace and accept new technologies and integrate them with their spellcasting? Can I be one of them?

[Lephys]

I wonder how they will indicate in game when you are in a rest spot. Perhaps a conveniently placed campfire along the path? A flashy thing on your map?

I wonder this as well. I'd have to assume you'll have regions of relative "safety" (more rest zones than spots) with smaller areas of... "unrest," (I couldn't resist), and other regions of relative danger (or otherwise-preventing-extended-rest factors) in which the majority of the area will not allow resting, and only small spots will allow it.

 

I highly doubt it'll be just little dots throughout the entirety of the traversable map. I am anticipating more official info on this, in general, though.

[Karkarov]

 

Except that in WoW you use cheesy aggro manipulation tactics to keep the heat off your rogue so he can keep hitting. It won't be as simple in PE.

Can you provide a link to where they discuss aggro mechanics? I hadn't heard of that and am interested in reading up on how it will be handled.

 

Considering even WoW doesn't use them anymore I hope they don't use them here and instead opt for good enemy AI.  Understand when I say WoW doesn't use aggro anymore I don't mean it isn't in the game, it is just tanks are so good at generating aggro now holding threat over others is very very easy.  When i quit at the end of Cataclysm it was at the point that my guild which was into end game raiding didn't even require you have one anymore.  You just cant pull threat off a good tank anymore, unless it is a part of the fights mechanic and designed to happen.

[Micamo]

A game is inherently a challenge, to some extent, and you can't have a challenge without effort being mandatory. I have no interest in forcing some crazy high amount of challenge, but I do wish to avoid preserving challenge, in the appropriate amount (as set by your difficulty choice).

Couldn't disagree more. I think games are about interaction, and challenge is merely one way of interacting with something. Saying that games are inherently about challenges is like saying movies are inherently summer blockbusters, or that literature is inherently trashy romance novels. It's the most popular and it makes the most money, but personally, the best games I've ever played were among the easiest.

[Lephys]

Couldn't disagree more. I think games are about interaction, and challenge is merely one way of interacting with something. Saying that games are inherently about challenges is like saying movies are inherently summer blockbusters, or that literature is inherently trashy romance novels. It's the most popular and it makes the most money, but personally, the best games I've ever played were among the easiest.

You're not disagreeing with me, then. You're disagreeing with the nature of games.

 

You do realize that a "game" existed long before "video games" did, hopefully. Imagine if the people who invented hide-and-seek so long ago just said "Meh, you don't actually have to find anyone. The game is actually just called 'Hide'. You can't even succeed or fail, in any capacity. Who wants to play?! 8D!"

 

You can interact with things all day long without ever accomplishing anything. Therefore, if games were simply entities of interaction, you could play tons of games in which there is no progress to be made in any capacity.

 

You could even say that a game like Minecraft challenges you to be creative with blocks. Therefore, the challenge is much broader, but it's still there. You could, for example, just get into Minecraft, and run in circles for hours and hours and hours, and do nothing else. Are you interacting with the game? Sure. Are you actually accomplishing anything at all within the context of the game's design and purpose? Nope.

[Micamo]

You could even say that a game like Minecraft challenges you to be creative with blocks. Therefore, the challenge is much broader, but it's still there. You could, for example, just get into Minecraft, and run in circles for hours and hours and hours, and do nothing else. Are you interacting with the game? Sure. Are you actually accomplishing anything at all within the context of the game's design and purpose? Nope.

Actually, I quite like doing just that. Minecraft generates some breathtaking environments sometimes, I like to just walk around and explore. I especially like it when it snows. You could say that I'm "challenging myself to find a pretty vista to look at" or whatever but this is rationalizing. And if you want an example from the IE games Torment is basically the easiest RPG ever made, and I don't think it would have been any better if there were more, harder combats. There are excellent games out there that are excellent through how they provide challenge (my favorite example of this type I've played recently is Hotline Miami), but challenge itself is neither necessary nor sufficient to have an excellent game.

[Lephys]

Actually, I quite like doing just that. Minecraft generates some breathtaking environments sometimes, I like to just walk around and explore. I especially like it when it snows. You could say that I'm "challenging myself to find a pretty vista to look at" or whatever but this is rationalizing.

You could, and you'd be right. And there'd be nothing wrong with that. But, the game still challenges you to do more than that. It gives you tools and blocks, and asks "what can you do with these, within the confines of the placement grid and physics and the limitations of your tools, etc.?".

 

And if you want an example from the IE games Torment is basically the easiest RPG ever made, and I don't think it would have been any better if there were more, harder combats. There are excellent games out there that are excellent through how they provide challenge (my favorite example of this type I've played recently is Hotline Miami), but challenge itself is neither necessary nor sufficient to have an excellent game.

See, I get the feeling that you're taking more from the word "challenge" than it's actually presenting. You seem to be suggesting that easiness, as opposed to hardness, equals a lack of challenge. But the easiest challenge in the universe is still a challenge.

 

"Throw a pebble at least 10 feet" is a challenge. "Interact with a pebble" is not. As broad or as easy as it may be, challenge, in some capacity, is at the core of any game. Especially a game like Project: Eternity (and any other cRPG, really). If it wasn't, then all the limitations (HP, mana, restricted dialogue choices, finite stat/attribute/skill allocation points, damage, move speed, party size, etc.) would be completely moot. There would be no reason for the possibility to die in combat, or the possibility to fail to resolve any given quest or situation.

[Infinitron]

Can one of the mods move this thread to the Game Mechanics forum? Thanks.

[TrashMan]

I don't get why some of you just want a game where every mechanic has some form of punishment, all in the name of your ideas of "realism".

 

I don't get why some of you just want a game where every mechanic is meaningless, all in the name of your ideas of "escapism".

 

***

 

Consequences are fine for me.

Re-spawnign monsters is a cheap way, but more effective would be to have enemies re-inforce. You rested? Well, the enemy emptied the armory and are now better equipped. Or most of them converged in the great hall. Or they brought a few reinforcements.

 

Resting is meaningless if there is no UNAVOIDABLE penalty. Random dice-roll monster spawning can be so easily avoided.

[TrashMan]

 

The central idea is there ought to be no pain in a game. Frustration != Difficulty.

 

 

Unfortunately, for some "no instant gratification" = frustration.

Challenge = frustration

Unwanted consequences = frustration.

[Captain Shrek]

Unfortunately, for some "no instant gratification" = frustration.

Challenge = frustration

Unwanted consequences = frustration.

 

Admittedly this is the target audience of P:E.

[Gfted1]

 

I wonder how they will indicate in game when you are in a rest spot. Perhaps a conveniently placed campfire along the path? A flashy thing on your map?

I wonder this as well. I'd have to assume you'll have regions of relative "safety" (more rest zones than spots) with smaller areas of... "unrest," (I couldn't resist), and other regions of relative danger (or otherwise-preventing-extended-rest factors) in which the majority of the area will not allow resting, and only small spots will allow it.

 

I highly doubt it'll be just little dots throughout the entirety of the traversable map. I am anticipating more official info on this, in general, though.

 

I figure there will have to be some kind of visual indication. Were already being forced to go to specific areas just to rest, I cant imagine the design would also force us to press the rest button every 10 feet until we get lucky and find the sweet spot.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Hopefully you're right Infinitron, and it's limited to attempted assassinations.

 

Eh it is just going to be like a WoW rogue.  Lots of prep, perfect positioning, unload with a set of specific skills.... then start prepping again so in 30-40 seconds you can do damage again.  Meanwhile the guy with the two hander does steady reliable damage to multiple enemies the entire time.  On a "pure damage" number crunch the two hander guy probably wins.... but the Rogue will still be better for one on one bursts of massive damage at a short time.  In other words two hander is for trash killing, rogue is for precision strike on high threat target.

 

I don't get this, a two handed sword deals much more damage than a dagger against one person. I don't know anything about MMO's because I don't play them, but I know how steel works and a two handed sword doesn't affect multiple people when you hit one.

 

Edit: Does Warcraft have a different set of physical laws governing mass and impetus? Sorry for the derail but this sounds utterly idiotic, I thought Eternity was going to have some authenticity to its arms and armour, not MMO rules.

Bad MMO mechanics.

 

Don't worry good sir, PE seems to be avoiding MMO mechanics pretty well.