Racism, sexism & bigotry

[PrimeJunta]

I agree. Just salting in constant and repetitive malicious comments is a very cheap and easy way of doing it, and rather than that, it would be better not to do at all.

 

What I'd like to see is shops, taverns, inns, guilds etc. that are "men only," "women only," "humans only," "orlans only" etc., with suitable social status associated. An orlan entering a shop selling magical luxuries would be turned away with "We don't serve your kind here;" a human barging into a grubby orlan pawnshop would be met with "Please sir, we have nothing here." 

 

Hey, you could then even add features that would let you circumvent these limitations. Disguise skills or illusion magic that would let you pass as a member of another group (if you knew how to act the part too), special, perhaps demeaning and humiliating, perhaps exceptionally challenging quests that would get you accepted as an honorary hu(man), and so on.

[Barothmuk]

I didn't vote in the poll because it's too simplistic. My answer is that it depends on whether those are themes that the writers want to devote the proper amount of energy, tact, and insight into exploring. I don't want them to merely include rampant bigotry out of some misguided desire to appear "accurate" or "authentic" (lol, it's a made-up world, they get to define what's authentic and what isn't).

This seems arbitrary. Why should the inclusion of bigotry be dependent on how major a theme it is? Would you advocate the absense of politics in the world of P:E if it wasn't a major story theme?

 

I personally prefer all aspects of the setting to be fleshed out regardless of how major a "theme" they are in the core story.

 

 

Personally, when it comes to medieval fantasy I prefer the setting to be rife with sexism, racism and all the other kinds of bigotry that plagued antiquity.

This made me lol. Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but apparently sexism, racism and other kinds of bigotry no longer plague us? Come now, friend: be a little more reasonable. Unless you're part of the privileged class/race/sex/etc, you'd be aware that stuff like this still goes on. *rant off*

 

Otherwise, carry on.

Referring to "medieval bigotry" does not exclude the existence of modern bigotry, however medieval bigotry is quite obviously on a different level of intensity to modern levels of bigotry. When I refer to medieval bigotry I'd like to think it obvious I'm referring to the intense levels of bigotry that plagued medieval society and dwarf the levels of bigotry in modern Western society.

 

Unless of course you're saying the are of the same intensity in which case I'd demand you check your privilege.

This is actually something I've been wondering too. If Obsidian put in overt racism and sexism (not that I think they will), who really benefits from it?

It's inclusion like any other facet of the game would be for the benefit of the player. Indeed some do not enjoy in-game bigotry however many do in fact enjoy and prefer it in these types of games.

I'm guessing the original poster means racism toward non-humans and sexism toward women, right?

Partly true. Humans can be discriminated against by other races as well, the intensity of that discrimination however depends on what race is the majority in what region. Bigotry against women is indeed included.

While I'm all for the role-play value of being a minority and exploring that side of interracial, gender and cultural relations, I don't see the point of being on the receiving end of constant ignorant, malicious, bigoted comments just for the sake of having them. As you and others have said, the player shouldn't have less agency or deal with more insults just for certain races or genders they choose to play. As Auxilious has said, "if I'm playing an elf, I'd like to move around without getting insulted over my pointy ears. It's boring and unfunny."

An odd mindset.

 

Personally I'd want one's race, species, gender class etc to have a major impact on how the player character is treated. That undoubtedly would mean some player character's are treated better than others but I can only see that as a good thing.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Barothmuk

[Walsingham]

I haven't much to add over gumbercules.

 

My view is that if the natural flow of the story takes you into bigotry then so be it. But don't go around looking for ways to throw it in. It's too serious and too complex a subject to go at half arsed. I like my racism fully arsed.

[Ulquiorra]

I voted no, mainly because such issues tend to vampirize another interesting subjects. Besides, they are already getting studied to death in other works.

It's also been done before in Arcanum, Dragon Age and The Witcher and it didn't bring anything new on the table. Especially in Witcher games where it's an unavoidable part of the setting. 

 

hmm... The most funny part is that the Wticher bring something "new to the table". Witcher is bringing you to a dark corupted world where humans can be as cruel as monsters. Witcher did it better then all DA series and arcanum combined becouse that was not "addon then gives some dark elements" like in DA series but an part of a world. Witcher are inspired by a book series writhen by Andrzej Sapkowski. Racism and sexism was the part of that world.

 

So tell my HOW whoud you make a game inspired on BOOK series and ignore the major part of that setting ? We whoud have another resident evil with milla jovovich more riseble to matrix with zombies then original resident evil.

 

About "vampirize another interesting subjects", your completly wrong if you aplaying it to the witcher 1 (i dunno about 2) becouse beside this "dark and corupted" part of the game we have also "beatufill, fantastical and postitiv elemtents". even funny elemtent for time to time. 1,2 and 3 are pretty dark, 4 act is a lighter and more "fairy taleish" 5 act is popadly the darker ... but in 2 and 3 we have not only dark elements but also positiv and funny ... so if game is giving you the wole spectrum of elements then it's just "LIVING WORLD" ... where we have dark, light and even something gray.

 

I arge witch you if you applying it to Dragon Age settings becouse there the whole "racism" and "dark" elements where simple addons to make game more mature ... Dragon Age whoud have potential if EA was not involved becouse EA are pushing desiners to make games as childish as possible.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Ulquiorra

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

(just about everything)

 

Just... grow up. Please.

[motorizer]

 

 

What I'd like to see is shops, taverns, inns, guilds etc. that are "men only," "women only," "humans only," "orlans only" etc., with suitable social status associated. An orlan entering a shop selling magical luxuries would be turned away with "We don't serve your kind here;" a human barging into a grubby orlan pawnshop would be met with "Please sir, we have nothing here." 

 

 

Yep

Whilst women might complain about a "men only" club for example, if done right it could actually  add a bunch of extra gameplay for a female character as she finds another way in, or a way round it......or burns the place down,with the sexist pigs in it

 

One thing I think new vegas got wrong was that they made this outrageously sexist faction, then let female characters join them with no difference from the males except for a few lines of dialogue and not letting them fight in the arena, they should have either gone the whole hog or toned it down a bit.

 

I think the game should be just as rewarding, but different depending on your race and gender, people who are unwelcome in one place could have a much easier ride elsewhere

nobody should be liked everywhere.

Edited May 18, 2013 by motorizer

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

 

(just about everything)

 

Just... grow up. Please.

 

 

You see, being inmature and "growing up" is a matter of time, but when it comes down to lack of inteligence like in your case it's not so easy ...

[PrimeJunta]

I think the game should be just as rewarding, but different depending on your race and gender, people who are unwelcome in one place could have a much easier ride elsewhere

nobody should be liked everywhere.

Yep. It's one thing for the game world to discriminate against classes of individuals; it's another for the game to do the same. This is why I dislike tired videogame tropes like boobplate and damsels in distress. They just pander to some really dumb expectations and relegate one class of individuals – women – to eye-candy status only.

 

So it would be a bad thing if bigotry in P:E led to a situation where, say, playing as an orlan or a woman would lead to a significantly poorer game.

 

This doesn't mean the game world can't be bigoted. You just have to put in alternative content for all sides. If a city guard is human males only, you might make a criminal underground that's non-humans only. If additionally you made elements of the guard corrupt and elements in the criminal underground take care of the community where it operates, then both paths would get a rewarding and materially different experience, and both paths would benefit from the added depth the other brings to the table. It would have the added benefit of believability, since this resembles how bigotry and social groupings operate in real life.

 

You wouldn't want to overdo this of course; it'd be a bit of a let-down if the entire plot was predetermined by the choices you made at character creation. But I think it would be possible to work in this kind of thing "organically" as it were.

[Merlkir]

Define "poorer game". The Nosferatu in Bloodlines are hideous and either have to constantly cast Obfuscate to move on the streets, or they have to run through the bloody sewers. Why would anyone ever play a Nosferatu in the game, they totally suck, right? I think Bloodlines treats the Nosferatu as second class citizens.

[motorizer]

But it makes sense for a nosferatu to have to hide from human characters, would be stupid if you got exactly the same game as a character who looks human when you look like a monster. I never played vampire as a nosferatu so I don't know how it was, but the idea of being a terrifying unseen predator can be fun, in the original AVP it was ace (not an RPG I know,, but the feeling was there) if it was a poorer game for that then they got it wrong

Vampire got a lot wrong but  I think it was the fault of the publishers and a rushed release rather than the devs, what they got right was brilliant

Edited May 18, 2013 by motorizer

[Merlkir]

That was the point, really. What we'd consider awful disadvantages in real life can be interesting obstacles to face in games. If there is racism in the world and your elf character is in an anti-elf area, it'd be silly not to have characters spit at you in the street, or call you a "pointy-eared devil", just because it's "tired and old". Not to have any form of bigotry be present at all would require some seriously great explanations. (which the gentle-hearted folk suggesting this escapist practice never seem to come up with)

 

The point of including bigotry in your world is not necessarily to "bring something new and original", or to focus on these issues. Personally, I'm sick and tired of both extremes - dumb stereotypes and thinly veiled bigotry (be it mail bikini, or elf ear haters) AND annoying moralizing (oh look how poorly women are treated, let's help them!). Just give me the freedom of choosing meaningful actions without deciding for me what's black and white good or evil.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Merlkir

[motorizer]

That was the point, really. What we'd consider awful disadvantages in real life can be interesting obstacles to face in games. If there is racism in the world and your elf character is in an anti-elf area, it'd be silly not to have characters spit at you in the street, or call you a "pointy-eared devil", just because it's "tired and old". Not to have any form of bigotry be present at all would require some seriously great explanations. (which the gentle-hearted folk suggesting this escapist practice never seem to come up with)

 

 

Yeah that was kind of my point earlier about caesars legion in NV, it should have been massively different for a female character, but it was pretty much the same, which didn't feel right to me

 

again that could be down to time and publishers, I don't know

Edited May 18, 2013 by motorizer

[PrimeJunta]

Define "poorer game". The Nosferatu in Bloodlines are hideous and either have to constantly cast Obfuscate to move on the streets, or they have to run through the bloody sewers. Why would anyone ever play a Nosferatu in the game, they totally suck, right? I think Bloodlines treats the Nosferatu as second class citizens.

 

Less content. Less interesting challenges. Less interesting gameplay.

 

Bloodlines is an excellent example of how to do it right. The Nosferatu had particular challenges they had to surmount, and the game experience was different because of them. You didn't get the social intricacies of playing as a Toreador, but you got something else instead.

 

So it's kind of correct to say that the the world of Bloodlines treats Nosferatu as second-class citizens, but the game of Bloodlines totally doesn't. Nosferatu gameplay is fully fleshed-out and every bit as interesting as playing as any other clan.

[motorizer]

 

Define "poorer game". The Nosferatu in Bloodlines are hideous and either have to constantly cast Obfuscate to move on the streets, or they have to run through the bloody sewers. Why would anyone ever play a Nosferatu in the game, they totally suck, right? I think Bloodlines treats the Nosferatu as second class citizens.

 

Less content. Less interesting challenges. Less interesting gameplay.

 

Bloodlines is an excellent example of how to do it right. The Nosferatu had particular challenges they had to surmount, and the game experience was different because of them. You didn't get the social intricacies of playing as a Toreador, but you got something else instead.

 

So it's kind of correct to say that the the world of Bloodlines treats Nosferatu as second-class citizens, but the game of Bloodlines totally doesn't. Nosferatu gameplay is fully fleshed-out and every bit as interesting as playing as any other clan.

 

Then thats how it should be, as I said I never tried a nosferatu in bloodlines, but I agree that it should have been very different, but just as rewarding.

[Auxilius]

That was the point, really. What we'd consider awful disadvantages in real life can be interesting obstacles to face in games. If there is racism in the world and your elf character is in an anti-elf area, it'd be silly not to have characters spit at you in the street, or call you a "pointy-eared devil", just because it's "tired and old". Not to have any form of bigotry be present at all would require some seriously great explanations. (which the gentle-hearted folk suggesting this escapist practice never seem to come up with)

 

The point of including bigotry in your world is not necessarily to "bring something new and original", or to focus on these issues. Personally, I'm sick and tired of both extremes - dumb stereotypes and thinly veiled bigotry (be it mail bikini, or elf ear haters) AND annoying moralizing (oh look how poorly women are treated, let's help them!). Just give me the freedom of choosing meaningful actions without deciding for me what's black and white good or evil.

The people spitting on a heavily armed adventurer just because he's an elf would be an incredibly dumb move.

There are other ways to show prejudice without annoying the player. People could just go away when you approach. Doors could close. Prices could go up. Dialogue options could get sut down. Men and women could be attracted because you're forbidden fruit. Etc.

That's why I was talking about blatant bigotry. Getting insulted and spat at is well, tired, old and unfunny. Even witcher games didn't do that, despite the overly racist setting. As far as I recall, only Loredo was like that in Witcher 2 and he was such a disgusting ****, it was par for the course. And even he was smart enough to realize it was a bad idea to piss off a brute like Geralt right in front of his face.

Being dark for the sake of being dark has already been called bad. It's all about being implemented with subtlety.

 

I'm cool with quests depending on your race by the way. Thugs could try to mug a party leaded by an elf, only to reveal a quest about another elf getting lynched elsewhere that the PC could have to rescue, something like that. It adds depth and prove everyone is not the same.

And considering their record, I'm sure Obs will handle the shades of grey mighty well.

[Micamo]

I can't tell if you're endorsing Columbia, or not.

 

Eh, my opinion of Columbia depends on what the intentions behind it were. If it was meant to be taken seriously, it's the most cartoonishly stupid setting I've ever seen. If, as some commentators have posited, it was meant to be a satirical deconstruction of "darker and edgier" as a trope, then it's merely mediocre and ineffective at its goals. Either way, I don't want P:E to imitate it.

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

I'd really like having racism and all that in P:E, as I love facing the challenge brought to the table by prejudices of NPC's. But I think it has to be subtler than races spitting and shouting threats at each other on the streets. More something like the player being, say, an elf. And by a happenstance, the player encounters an elf-hating NPC who gives the player a quest. And picking an "You do realize I expect to get paid?" dialogue line would cause the NPC to reply something along the lines "I knew to expect that from an elf."

 

And then separate groups within cities/factions with a lot of prejudice against something in varying degrees of extremity add flavor to the game IMO. After all, having a different section shown of a larger group shows that they're not all exactly the same. 

 

But all in all, prejudice, racism and that must be made carefully and thoughtfully, which I believe Obsidian will do if they choose to implement these elements, as the whole concept is more and less like dancing on a knife's edge in the terms of getting it just right.

[Failion]

I liked how in morrowind everyone treated you like trash until you complete a lot of quests in the game world. Even then there are people who despise you regardless. Sexism? I think that is undeveloped in media. Somewhat taboo on the level as pedophilia. keep that in real life. Lol imagine a quest involving a woman suing for sexual harassment and the player taking sides.

[Lurky]

But all in all, prejudice, racism and that must be made carefully and thoughtfully, which I believe Obsidian will do if they choose to implement these elements, as the whole concept is more and less like dancing on a knife's edge in the terms of getting it just right.

 

Hopefully, us being here giving feedback will help them not get cut

 

I liked the mention of the Nosferatu. Being a Nosferatu had a clear effect in the way the world saw you and interacted with you, and many times you couldn't do some quests the straightforward way. But that didn't mean you had less content; you had alternative, more laborious ways of doing quests, important NPCs would acknowledge what you are but still interact with you, and hell, Nosferatu NPCs were an important part of the game, and being a Nosferatu meant being treated more favorably by them. It balanced out, in a way that, instead of making the Nosferatu playthroughs terrible, it made them different, which is good for the game because it adds replayability.

 

So perhaps that is what it has to come down to. Balance. This is especially important for non-fictional discrimination; abuse thrown in the way of a Nosferatu won't hit too close to home for players because they're not Nosferatu, but in the case of racism and sexism, that is a very real possibility. But again, if the rights of the players are respected, if these playthroughs are just as rich as the others, no real harm should be done, and instead people could appreciate that this subject is being discussed and discussed maturely. It could be worth it.

 

And we can help. Seriously, PE is crowdfunded and crowd-vetted. The developers are not constrained by decisions made by risk-averse publishers, which means that they are free to explore some of the more controversial topics in the way that they see fit. And instead of fearing that one thing or another will be taken wrong by the players and remove it, they can run it through here first, and adjust it accordingly. There's already a lot of thoughtful posts and points being made here on the subject, which will let them go with the best perspective in mind.

 

The armor designs have already shown that they can make something that keeps all perspectives into account and makes everyone reasonably happy, so I have trust that they can do the same with some of the most volatile subjects.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Lurky

[Ffordesoon]

Sexism? I think that is undeveloped in media. Somewhat taboo on the level as pedophilia. keep that in real life. Lol imagine a quest involving a woman suing for sexual harassment and the player taking sides.

I... I genuinely do not understand what you just said. I mean, I understand the words, but the point escapes me entirely. Please clarify?

[Lephys]

The whole racial prejudices thing (for example, among other prejudices) could also affect reputation scores and changes, amongst whole factions as well as on an individual basis. Perhaps a small village who "hates" elves, having all their arses saved by an elf, on multiple occasions, makes a few individuals shatter that prejudice. You know, "Elves are supposed to be bad... but this guy has done more for us than almost anyone else I've ever known, including all the people who are allegedly better than elves." And their prejudice kind of "unravels," so to speak, so you get a particularly large reputation gain with them (they now feel that they need to make up for all the spite they held for you before).

 

Just one example. I don't think all prejudices should be able to be broken, or that everyone should just like you a lot more when you help them while they hate you, or that the player's only options should be "Help them despite their hating you."

[PrimeJunta]

Or, of course, it could go like it usually does: they could designate you an honorary human. Even the Nazis designated some Jews honorary Aryans. (I bet they were really chuffed about that honor.)

[Lephys]

^ That, too. Then you could level their town, or poison their water supply, and make them "honorary non-living."

[Faerunner]

No offense, I'm not surprised that when people call for racism in a fantasy setting, they mean for humans to be on top of the social hierarchy. It's just become so common to depict and so predictable to request that it's driving me to question why. Why should races like humans get clear social and economic advantages like "luxurious shops" and lifestyles while races like elves and orlan only get "grubby pawnshops?" Why should other races strive to be "honorary humans" for social or economic gain, rather than humans striving to be honorary elves, dwarves, aumaua, etc?

 

I keep seeing people call for racism and sexism, but almost never toward humans or men. The request seems to be for clear in-game disadvantages to characters of some races (like insulting comments, higher prices, quest denial, being barred from "luxurious" shops and honorable institutions) with clear advantages to others (humans might be barred from some "grubby orlan pawnshops," but since those would theoretically offer such undesirable equipment, it would be nothing to cry over). Unless there would be clear in-game advantages and disadvantages to both sides (humans being denied shops that carry amazing magical items and equipment reserved only for elves or orlan as well as elves/orlan being denied "luxurious shops" with theoretical great equipment, humans needing to be "honorary orlan/elf/aumaua" in certain places, etc) I don't see who really benefits from the system.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Faerunner

[Lephys]

In the Guild Wars lore, Humans aren't even native to the world of Tyria. They were brought there by their gods, or something like that, well after other races had already been around. In Guild Wars 2, the remnants of the entire Human race are banded together in a single city, and that's about all the control they have in the entire world.

 

Just thought it was kind of interesting, amid the whole "Humans are always the center of everything" bit. 8P