No such thing as evil - top trumped

[alanschu]

My point is whether you apply your rule about no innocent harm consistently within your own position. Would you apply a 'no innocents must get irreversibly harmed' rule across government. Much more importantly:

 

I do hold the government more culpable when decisions are made through ignorance/corruption that harm innocent people.  Unless we're talking about a "greater good" here (and life imprisonment vs. death penalty is not one of those situations where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few), the government should not be doing things that goes off an kills innocent people.

 

If a civilian is reckless with a firearm and puts people at risk, I get upset.  If a police officer or soldier is reckless with a firearm and puts people at risk, I get angry.

 

 

I mean, for who's sake are we executing people anyways.  There was a case in Florida where a man was murdered, and his daughter seriously injured, by an assailant.  The man had made it known that if he was ever murdered, he would not want his murderer to have the death penalty.  His daughter (after undergoing surgery to repair her injuries) attempted to uphold her father's wishes, but ran into resistance from the prosecution (and later, even the judge).  Unfortunately Florida law prevented her from stating that she did not want the defendant executed.  After two errors by the prosecution overturned the death sentence, she was brought back in as the primary witness for the prosecution.  She had asked (and the defendant willing to accept) the prosecution to not push for the death penalty, but the prosecution denied, meaning she had to go back to trial and restate her experiences of being attacked and watching her father get murdered (sounds awesome!  This is justice, right?).

 

Frustrated with not being able to state that she did not want the defendant executed, her own lawyer suggested that, when asked what her occupation was, she state she has to jobs - her regular job on top of going around the country working to end the death penalty.  The prosecution was livid and objected, and the judge threatened to throw her in jail in contempt as a result, but at least she now got her wishes as the jury decided to sentence life without parole.

 

 

On top of this, there hasn't been research that shows that execution has long term benefits for the victim's loved ones, though there is increasingly more anecdotal evidence that it actually has the opposite effect.

 

There's actually a group, Murder Victims for Human Rights that consists of those that have suffered at the hands of murderers, and further suffer because of the death penalty.

 

 

 

 

Calm down, dear.

 

You're the one getting pissy that evidently I haven't suffered enough to truly understand what victims go through.  I'm sure you've a long history of family members and other loved ones being murdered, however, so your opinion on the subject is superior to mine!

 

Cheers mate.

 

 

 

 

 

Either way, this is one of those debates that go nowhere, make no one happy and sway no one.

 

I actually had a poster on this board PM me that I had actually convinced him to rethink his thoughts on the death penalty.  That poster is even still reasonably active on these boards, though I'll let them speak up if they so wish.

Edited May 12, 2013 by alanschu

[Monte Carlo]

^ Wow, Alan. It's all about you.

[Nonek]

It's a well known fact that children thrive on discipline, and make for far more well adjusted and productive adults. Look at my own situation, my father was a very strict disciplinarian, he once shot me for putting too much butter on my crmpet, but I thrived under such tough but firm conditions. Unfortunately my brother Kenneth did not fare so well, after being warned repeatedly not to walk on the grass he was beaten to death with a bamboo cane, while being asked how he liked it. We however never walked on the grass again, though that was partially down to the proliferation of claymore mines planted throughout the Rhododendrons. My dear sister Emma was lobotomised for picking her nose once too often, but had been warned often and at length to discontinue this horrendous habit. Apart from these two exceptions my siblings are stable and productive (if heavily scarred) members of society, who are raising families of their own.

 

Yours.

 

Herbert P Wibblebottom.

Parkhurst prison.

Maximum security wing.

[WDeranged]

I'm way too much of a fence sitter to participate but this thread has been a great read.  It's hard not to feel personally attacked when your beliefs are challenged, this is one of those supremely divisive issues, I hope that after this everyone can still find it in their hearts to hate each other for things that really matter..like computer games 

[Malcador]

Pft, this forum's population can hate one another ? Hardly. I mean, someone changed their mind on issue based on some stranger posting stuff on a thread ? Not proper Internet behaviour

 

I don't think any punishment is aimed to help the victims feel better - it's supposed to be a penalty and a way to remove the guilty person from society (well or rehabilitate them in cases when you're not dealing with someone too far gone). I guess they feel bad when the state kills the person out of guilt or something, if they are of the set that feels bad.

 

Some killers really deserve to hang (or much worse, Russell Williams deserves to be experimented on), but I'm against the death penalty slightly due to its finality given the fallibility of the system. And, as I mentioned earlier, keeping them alive with no freedom is pretty harsh.

[Hurlshort]

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

Especially when you consider there is a high chance of being raped and beaten frequently in prison.

[NOK222]

Oh no, a horrible human being. Now life is black and white and we must kill other people to protect da childrens. 

 

There is no such as evil, there are however intense and sometimes extreme psychological problems that happen. The problem is, when these people get into power. 

 

 

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

 

Bull****. 

Edited May 13, 2013 by NKKKK

[Hurlshort]

 

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

Especially when you consider there is a high chance of being raped and beaten frequently in prison.

 

 

As I said, the most difficult thing is being around other prisoners.

[NOK222]

 

 

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

Especially when you consider there is a high chance of being raped and beaten frequently in prison.

 

 

As I said, the most difficult thing is being around other prisoners.

 

http://www.prisonhonorprogram.org/Docs/parade_jimwebb.pdf

 

It's not "If it wasn't for the rapey parts, Prison would be good" 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

http://www.prisonhonorprogram.org/Docs/parade_jimwebb.pdf

 

It's not "If it wasn't for the rapey parts, Prison would be good"

 

That doesn't exactly contradict what we said. Prisons are bad because the gang culture often makes people more violent when they come out than they were when they went in. Overcrowding prisons by shoving people guilty of victimless crimes is less of a prison problem, and more of a justice system problem.

 

As I said, the most difficult thing is being around other prisoners.

I know, consider me reinforcement or tangent. Edited May 13, 2013 by KaineParker

[Orogun01]

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

Whilst I won't dispute that the conditions in US prisons are desirable compared to others, I still take issue with the fact that there is a lot of privatization in the penal system, making the whole process more of a for profit enterprise than an actual reformation. Nevertheless I doubt the intentions of any business that thrives and because of the moral weakness of men.

 

It's a well known fact that children thrive on discipline, and make for far more well adjusted and productive adults. Look at my own situation, my father was a very strict disciplinarian, he once shot me for putting too much butter on my crmpet, but I thrived under such tough but firm conditions. Unfortunately my brother Kenneth did not fare so well, after being warned repeatedly not to walk on the grass he was beaten to death with a bamboo cane, while being asked how he liked it. We however never walked on the grass again, though that was partially down to the proliferation of claymore mines planted throughout the Rhododendrons. My dear sister Emma was lobotomised for picking her nose once too often, but had been warned often and at length to discontinue this horrendous habit. Apart from these two exceptions my siblings are stable and productive (if heavily scarred) members of society, who are raising families of their own.

 

Yours.

 

Herbert P Wibblebottom.

Parkhurst prison.

Maximum security wing.

I won't disregard the importance of imprinting cause and consequence on children, because in fact I believe that to be one of the most important lessons that a parent/caregiver can impart. But I often find that too much of an authoritarian and disciplinary approach stifles growth by making them to afraid to branch out and be punished for it. Namely the consequences shouldn't be so severe that it stagnates the children's growth, I find that an appropriate alternative is to make them responsible for their mistakes and make sure that they understand why they are being punished (forced to take responsibility).

Also, did your parents actually do the things you retell or is there some embellishment to the story? I feel that shooting and lobotomy might fall under psychotic rather than disciplinary.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

 

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

Especially when you consider there is a high chance of being raped and beaten frequently in prison.

 

 

As I said, the most difficult thing is being around other prisoners.

 

http://www.prisonhonorprogram.org/Docs/parade_jimwebb.pdf

 

It's not "If it wasn't for the rapey parts, Prison would be good" 

 

 

I probably should have put it in my post, but earlier in the thread one of the first things I said was the prison system needs a massive overhaul.  That article is a great explanation of why.

[NOK222]

I know, but you said "they have it pretty good, except for the bunhole rapes". It's pretty inaccurate to say that. 

[Walsingham]

 

 We should discuss happier things.

 

What like female Chainmail bikini armour? I think there is a thread on this.....

 

 

 

There's nothing happy about it if you happen to own nipples. Stuff chafes like you wouldn't believe.

 

So I'm told.

 

~~~

 

I think we're straying from the nub of the thing to a degree.

 

Let's simplify terms a bit. ASSUME: 

1. Accuracy of judgement

2. Cost effectiveness of administration

 

I say assume because I think this goes beyond these footling skirmishing points. The real clash of concepts occurs because some people just don't have in their hearts to condemn certain crimes at even an abstract level. 

 

If I could be reassured that I was incorrect then I think we'd get along a lot better.

[Hurlshort]

I know, but you said "they have it pretty good, except for the bunhole rapes". It's pretty inaccurate to say that. 

 

That's really not what I said at all.  I said they are getting nutritious meals and cable television.  They get to join rodeos and boxing teams.  Basically I'm saying the State and taxpayers foot the bill for a fairly comfortable existence.  What they can't control is the other inmates, particularly given the overcrowding issues.  

[Malcador]

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

Well, I'd hope those convicted of really heinous crimes end up without privileges like that (if not, well probably should off them then).

[BruceVC]

 

I'm not sure about prisons in other countries, but in the US they've got it pretty good.  Some of these guys have cable TV, internet, etc.  Their meals even have to meet nutritional standards.  The most difficult thing about being in prison is being around other prisoners, it seems.

Well, I'd hope those convicted of really heinous crimes end up without privileges like that (if not, well probably should off them then).

 

 

What are the Canadian prisons like, I imagine they are similar to 3 or 4  star hotels where prisoners get massages and have there own rooms with full cable, Internet access, a space for there pet Moose and can choose there meals from a French inspired menu? In fact does Canada even have prisons ? 

 

[Malcador]

Canadian prisons are a lot like what Hurlshot described US prisons as, I think.

[NOK222]

Canadian prisons are a lot like what Hurlshot described US prisons as, I think.

Which is incorrect. 

[Walsingham]

I'm not sure anyone's debating the utility of prisons, or have I missed something?

[BruceVC]

I'm not sure anyone's debating the utility of prisons, or have I missed something?

 

Okay I need to share this. I'm in the departure lounge at the airport and your comment, even though it may not seem funny,  has just caused me to burst into laughter. In fact I found  myself laughing out loud for about 30 seconds. People were staring at me and obviously wondering " whats the joke"..but I couldn't help myself

 

Its the way you say things sometimes that I find hilarious, so thanks for the laugh 

 

Anyway back to your post, you know we have a way of derailing topics. Its in our genetic nature.

Edited May 13, 2013 by BruceVC

[Walsingham]

 

I'm not sure anyone's debating the utility of prisons, or have I missed something?

 

Okay I need to share this. I'm in the departure lounge at the airport and your comment, even though it may not seem funny,  has just caused me to burst into laughter. In fact I found  myself laughing out loud for about 30 seconds. People were staring at me and obviously wondering " whats the joke"..but I couldn't help myself

 

Its the way you say things sometimes that I find hilarious, so thanks for the laugh 

 

Anyway back to your post, you know we have a way of derailing topics. Its in our genetic nature.

 

 

[Calax]

 

I know, but you said "they have it pretty good, except for the bunhole rapes". It's pretty inaccurate to say that. 

 

That's really not what I said at all.  I said they are getting nutritious meals and cable television.  They get to join rodeos and boxing teams.  Basically I'm saying the State and taxpayers foot the bill for a fairly comfortable existence.  What they can't control is the other inmates, particularly given the overcrowding issues.  

 

You do realize that ultimately treating people better in prison means that there is a lower recidivism rate right? I think it's Norway that has their "prison" is actually a little village where all the inmates are monitored, but have their own homes with TV etc. And because they're respected and the prison has enough resources, the offenders don't re-offend.

[Gfted1]

You do realize that ultimately treating people better in prison means that there is a lower recidivism rate right? I think it's Norway that has their "prison" is actually a little village where all the inmates are monitored, but have their own homes with TV etc. And because they're respected and the prison has enough resources, the offenders don't re-offend.

Id love to hear how you feel they got there in the first place.