Update #52: Monk!

[rjshae]

 

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

I think JES answered that rather nicely. Using your soul's powers takes a lot of dedication and training. A wizard's training is not like a monk's or a cleric's. A monk can't suddenly start using a wizard's skills any more than a martial arts master can suddenly start using a master watchmaker's skills. It takes a half a lifetime to become a master watchmaker or a martial arts master, even if both skillsets are "powered" by the same thing.

 

(I'm liking monks a lot more after that explanation BTW.)

 

Exactly. I suppose one philosophy might be to think of the soul as the "energy source" and the different character classes as the energy transfer mechanisms. Just as in the physical world there are different forms of energy storage and application, so too are there different means of wielding the energy of the soul. Perhaps the Monks are the "fly-wheels" (prayer wheels?) of soul energy; the more you strike it in the right way, the faster the wheel is spun up and the more soul energy it can release.

[J. Trudel]

I think the "different eras" look makes perfect sense for P:E's Conquistador premise. The Vailians are clearly Renaissance, whereas the others are more "antiquity." This mirrors the New World in the 1500's.

 

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by PiE's ? 

[Gfted1]

P : E = Project Eternity.

[J. Trudel]

P : E = Project Eternity.

 

Ha ! I misread the term, I guess I should have seen the '':'' and not an ''i''. However, I still think that every cultural ''styles'' looks like to be coming from a different era. It would be fitting to have one more ''advanced'' culture, but now it's somewhat feels like there is no current era in the game which will make the world a bit less immersive.

[Lasweetlife]

 

 

P : E = Project Eternity.

Ha ! I misread the term, I guess I should have seen the '':'' and not an ''i''. However, I still think that every cultural ''styles'' looks like to be coming from a different era. It would be fitting to have one more ''advanced'' culture, but now it's somewhat feels like there is no current era in the game which will make the world a bit less immersive.

Let us not forget that we live in a current world where Prada suits, biker gang leather chic, African kente cloth, and Amazonian loincloth are all everyday attire in different parts of the world, even with all of the globalization we have undergone. It would actually be more unrealistic if the cultural styles in a pre-globalization world was less diverse than it is now.

[Rostere]

 

 

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63765-update-52-monk/page-7?do=findComment&comment=1329978

 

Partially answered by the man himself a page back.

 

 

Hm yes, my post seems a bit silly now in hindsight. Maybe I should read more than just the first post before posting in a thread.

 

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

 

See above and SOULS! Answer to everything in PE. 

 

 

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

 

I don't think even you realize how silly your questions are...

 

in the game as in life there are multiple disciplines that require study, time and dedicated training. You asking why a cleric can't use monk abilities is like asking why a catholic priest can't just switch professions and become an MMA champion.

 

I'm under the impression that you think the soul is this precious little light source inside the PC's chest that he pinches in order to get soul juice to power abilities he purchases at the local market....I'd wager it is a bit more complex than that.

 

I think you misunderstand the purpose of my post in the first place. First, I don't have any presupposition of how things work, unlike you who thinks that acquiring class soul powers is solely dependent on "study, time and dedicated training". The purpose of me asking those questions is not that I want the devs to give me an answer, what I want is for them to ask themselves these questions in order to avoid later contradictions, and design the themes of the game around what they decide on.

 

To me it's less obvious how the training of a cleric and a monk is any different. Obviously I know how Catholic priests and MMA fighters differ in their training, but I haven't any idea about what is the case in PE, because it's a fictional world designed by Obsidian. The point is that the definition of the classes and what makes them different is dependent on what Obsidian designs, not about our analogies to the real world. We know a bit about what separates them but not enough about how their training is mutually incompatible. Monks believe in strength through mortification of the flesh and Clerics believe in undying virtues and beliefs. To me those are pretty overlapping, if you made a survey on IRL people I think you will find that that mortification of the flesh correlates with strong belief

 

 

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

I think JES answered that rather nicely. Using your soul's powers takes a lot of dedication and training. A wizard's training is not like a monk's or a cleric's. A monk can't suddenly start using a wizard's skills any more than a martial arts master can suddenly start using a master watchmaker's skills. It takes a half a lifetime to become a master watchmaker or a martial arts master, even if both skillsets are "powered" by the same thing.

 

(I'm liking monks a lot more after that explanation BTW.)

 

 

The thing is that they have recently talked about souls of different power, "fractured" souls and intact ones. We know that there are different souls in the PE universe, perhaps it would make sense that different souls have different affinities for class abilities? For example, if you just reached level 10 with your Monk you've really only used training to reveal the latent "Monk powers" of your soul. We know that souls are the source for class abilities. How are the powers dependent on what powers them?

[J. Trudel]

 

 

P : E = Project Eternity.

Ha ! I misread the term, I guess I should have seen the '':'' and not an ''i''. However, I still think that every cultural ''styles'' looks like to be coming from a different era. It would be fitting to have one more ''advanced'' culture, but now it's somewhat feels like there is no current era in the game which will make the world a bit less immersive.

Let us not forget that we live in a current world where Prada suits, biker gang leather chic, African kente cloth, and Amazonian loincloth are all everyday attire in different parts of the world, even with all of the globalization we have undergone. It would actually be more unrealistic if the cultural styles in a pre-globalization world was less diverse than it is now.

 

 

It depends mostly on where you are located in the world. Usually, the era style (not clothing preferences) within a particular region is pretty much uniform. Of course there will always be hybrid and out of contexts styles (that's where adventurers come in right ? ). I suggest you take a look at different era styles across the world, while there will always be backward cultures that still wear only loin clothes (even if we believe that mostly because of discovery channel) you would be surprise to see how similar the fabric and ''cut'' looks like. Technology does that, not culture. 

[romka-unknown]

I love RPGs where there is a medieval gothic culture 1300-1500. It will be in PE?

 

 

[Lasweetlife]

 

 

 

 

P : E = Project Eternity.

Ha ! I misread the term, I guess I should have seen the '':'' and not an ''i''. However, I still think that every cultural ''styles'' looks like to be coming from a different era. It would be fitting to have one more ''advanced'' culture, but now it's somewhat feels like there is no current era in the game which will make the world a bit less immersive.

Let us not forget that we live in a current world where Prada suits, biker gang leather chic, African kente cloth, and Amazonian loincloth are all everyday attire in different parts of the world, even with all of the globalization we have undergone. It would actually be more unrealistic if the cultural styles in a pre-globalization world was less diverse than it is now.

It depends mostly on where you are located in the world. Usually, the era style (not clothing preferences) within a particular region is pretty much uniform. Of course there will always be hybrid and out of contexts styles (that's where adventurers come in right ? ). I suggest you take a look at different era styles across the world, while there will always be backward cultures that still wear only loin clothes (even if we believe that mostly because of discovery channel) you would be surprise to see how similar the fabric and ''cut'' looks like. Technology does that, not culture.

I can say from personal experience that, at least outside of the first world, culture plays a very large role in the styles of attire. I grew up in a small African country where, despite a relatively even level of technology, economics, and climate, different parts of the nation have very different styles of clothing. In the north, men wear "batakari", which is basically a foot length embroided silk robe. In the center men wear colorful light-textile or kente "jumpers" or thick woven blouses with regular western trousers. In the south, most men walk around in jeans and soccer jerseys (seriously). This is not even accounting for the insane diversity in female clothing styles. I am not saying that technology plays no role, but rather, that culture plays as large a role.

[Malekith]

I think the "different eras" look makes perfect sense for P:E's Conquistador premise. The Vailians are clearly Renaissance, whereas the others are more "antiquity." This mirrors the New World in the 1500's.

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/456125847317791014

 

Read the comments. I have told you you should read Malazan Book of the Fallen in a previous thread.

Both Avellone and Ziets are fans.

Hype increased to 99999999.

Seriously, Ziets should be working as PR. In his formspring and in interviews he gives all the right answers.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Malekith

[PrimeJunta]

On a second reading, maybe I will play a monk after all at some point. And I will name him, Thelonius.

[J. Trudel]

 

 

 

 

P : E = Project Eternity.

Ha ! I misread the term, I guess I should have seen the '':'' and not an ''i''. However, I still think that every cultural ''styles'' looks like to be coming from a different era. It would be fitting to have one more ''advanced'' culture, but now it's somewhat feels like there is no current era in the game which will make the world a bit less immersive.

Let us not forget that we live in a current world where Prada suits, biker gang leather chic, African kente cloth, and Amazonian loincloth are all everyday attire in different parts of the world, even with all of the globalization we have undergone. It would actually be more unrealistic if the cultural styles in a pre-globalization world was less diverse than it is now.

It depends mostly on where you are located in the world. Usually, the era style (not clothing preferences) within a particular region is pretty much uniform. Of course there will always be hybrid and out of contexts styles (that's where adventurers come in right ? ). I suggest you take a look at different era styles across the world, while there will always be backward cultures that still wear only loin clothes (even if we believe that mostly because of discovery channel) you would be surprise to see how similar the fabric and ''cut'' looks like. Technology does that, not culture.

I can say from personal experience that, at least outside of the first world, culture plays a very large role in the styles of attire. I grew up in a small African country where, despite a relatively even level of technology, economics, and climate, different parts of the nation have very different styles of clothing. In the north, men wear "batakari", which is basically a foot length embroided silk robe. In the center men wear colorful light-textile or kente "jumpers" or thick woven blouses with regular western trousers. In the south, most men walk around in jeans and soccer jerseys (seriously). This is not even accounting for the insane diversity in female clothing styles. I am not saying that technology plays no role, but rather, that culture plays as large a role.

 

 

I by no means argue you about the fact that culture play a huge role in the clothing style. Only saying that the concepts are way too similar to real world styles that are reminding of eras rather than cultures. If we look at the real world, we could clearly (most of the time) identify clothing that would come from Africa or America that belongs to the years 2000 and those from the 18th century.  

[Amentep]

 

I think the "different eras" look makes perfect sense for P:E's Conquistador premise. The Vailians are clearly Renaissance, whereas the others are more "antiquity." This mirrors the New World in the 1500's.

 

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by PiE's ?

 

 

 

P : E = Project Eternity.

Great...now I'm thinking about Pie.

[Monte Carlo]

Pie is good.

 

[Hormalakh]

 

* Monks start with a limited number of Wounds they can carry at one time.  Once that limit is hit, additional damage goes straight through.  This is one reason why wearing some amount of armor can be a wise strategic decision, even for a monk.

 

I suspect that players may game this system by having their monk character don armor in the middle of the battle, once the wounds limit is reached. I seem to recall you could do that in the IE games--albeit with the loss of a round.

 

 

No inventory access during combat.

Edit: Ah I see Josh already answered.

 

As for monks and someone asking me about they hadn't deviated from what they had said in the past: in the past we didn't have concrete information really - just tidbits. We now have more information and it seems like the monks have been well-thought out.

 

As for the cultural clothes: I don't understand people's gripes about it being too "generic", whatever that means. The general consensus has been that we don't want ridiculous fantasy in this game, and when we are given fantasy that isn't ridiculous people throw up their arms and cry "too generic!" Which doesn't really make sense because the clothing styles and cultures here are not generic at all.

 

It's funny how many people called these cultural dresses Greek, Slav, etc. I've seen the same diversity of clothing in the Middle East, specifically Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Yes, they're more traditional clothing, but up until the early 1800's people in Iran, for example, would be wearing clothing styles similar to these. Clothing style hasn't been as "fancy" and as rapidly evolving throughout the ages as it is now after globalization and the upswing of the fashion industry.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Hormalakh

[mstark]

Woah, I hadn't replied to this thread yet!

 

Would just like to say that the monk sounds like an amazing concept, with insane potential for micro management thanks to the wounds system. For anyone who ever wished for a more "active" fighter class, score!

 

Can the monk wear regular clothes without hindering his abilities? On that note, can clothes (and capes) be worn with armor? Say, can I equip a shirt, a pair of trousers, and put a hauberk and chain mail leggings on top?

 

Will NPCs, as a general rule, react to what I'm wearing to some degree (when it makes sense they should)?

 

Can't wait to obtain Vailian nobleman's clothing for my entire party.

Edited May 9, 2013 by mstark

[Hormalakh]

Really like the clothes idea. It's sort of silly to have only "naked" and "plate armor" as your only two options in any gaming world.

[Iucounu]

I love the monk concept. Somehow similiar to some sort of deathknight class that I always wanted to play.. a warrior who becomes more powerful when he's near death. But your monk concept is just far better thought through, and more easily to implement. 

I think I definitely going to play a monk in a dark fullplate mail, with a sword.. even if he is weaker in most situations. 

Edited May 10, 2013 by Iucounu

[Lasweetlife]

I hope the cultures of the other races are as varied, interesting, and well-thought-out as the human cultures appear to be.

[mudd1]

_{That's an interesting idea for a monk. Also I love the concepts for the cultures. The Vailian Republic is definately my fav so far.}

Sorry, but

[Lysen]

I love Comic Sans, but Verdana is even better.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Lysen

[radioactivelullaby]

are we going to be able to change garment (style & colour) from our inventory screen at any time or are we going to buy them at stores?

[TXTwilight]

Just logged in to say, I love your approach on the monk class.

It is a great idea not to restrict the class to a predefine role and let the player instead choose the playstyle of a class through the gear.

I´am definetly gonna try to build a monk, who will be like an offensive tank. Can´t wait what you have in store for the other classes!

And btw. the concept art for the different cultures is really awesome.

[rjshae]

I by no means argue you about the fact that culture play a huge role in the clothing style. Only saying that the concepts are way too similar to real world styles that are reminding of eras rather than cultures. If we look at the real world, we could clearly (most of the time) identify clothing that would come from Africa or America that belongs to the years 2000 and those from the 18th century.  

 

Providing the player with familiar motifs is not necessarily a bad thing for a fantasy setting; it should make the unusual stand out more.

[J. Trudel]

Really like the clothes idea. It's sort of silly to have only "naked" and "plate armor" as your only two options in any gaming world.

 

And I would also like to see unique benefits for every armor types, otherwise the options are kind of restricted because in most games a chain mail (as well as many other armor types) are useless at higher levels. I would like to see a concept where the armor are best suited for different situations.

 

For example : In heavy armors, the chain mail shines against slashing blows, the plate against crushing and the scale mail against piercing. But all are still good heavy armor. In light armors, the leather armor shines against piercing, studded leather against slashing and gambeson against crushing. It would leave the player the choice If he prefer a light or heavy armor, and after that the armor type would be a matter of choice, or necessity.