The BAD Kind Of "Multiple Currencies"

[Ffordesoon]

This started as a reply to Lephys' latest post in the endgame thread, but then I realized it would fit far better in its own thread. Apologies if this has already been brought up.

 

I love the idea of different currencies for different areas, but I hate currency systems that do the copper-silver-gold thing Dragon Age does. I realize it's theoretically more "realistic," and I grasp the function such systems serve in MMOs, but in a single-player game (and, if I'm honest, in MMOs), getting what is essentially fifteen cents for a SWORD, no matter how crappy a sword it is, feels like a cruel joke on the developers' part. It's an annoying system that always makes me feel like I'm not getting anywhere in the game.

 

I realize that my disdain for the system is almost entirely psychological; it doesn't really matter what you call the coins if their function is the same, and I'm sure that if I looked at a chart of average player earnings in Dragon Age versus those in another game that only used gold pieces, I would see that the curve was roughly the same in both titles. If PE ended up using such a system, it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me.

 

But what I would rather see is a single coin type for each area (e.g. 500gp). Failing that, a system analogous to, say, dollars and cents (e.g. ç150.25 - I just chose the "ç" symbol at random, BTW) would be good. As long as it's not the DA system, I'll be happy.

[Pipyui]

While the currency division doesn't particularly bother me, I see no real reason to have separate currencies for different locales.  Presuming in this case that all currency is valid anywhere, that is.  And in the case that it isn't, it might just feel needlessly impeading unless there is a method to exchange currencies, in which case I ask again: what is the point?  I understand that sovergn nations have their own currencies as a result of history, pride economics, etc; but these things seem of little merit in a video game when compared to how it complicates the system.

 

On the other hand, I can get on board having particularly currencies that serve for different merchants and/or items.  Like in Neverwinter Nights, you could collect smuggler's coins to purchase special items.  Perhaps certain collectors or factions (maybe only in a particular culture) deal only in rare artifact pieces that can only be found through adventuring, and can be traded for regular or unique services/goods.

 

Just my 1 silver 2 copper, anyway.

[Ffordesoon]

The multiple currencies thing has been mentioned by Sawyer a bunch of times in various places. It's not my idea, it's his, and I believe he's mentioned that he wants to do it in PE. While I'm sure he'd cut it if it ended up not working, it is as much of a "lock" as anything else so far confirmed about the game.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The units are not so important to me as the overall consitency and use of money. Items are generally not worth buying, or require an absurd amount of money. I'm not terribly concerned, as Temple of Elemental Evil & Arcanum are probably the only two games where I found things worth buying at reasonable prices. I hate the dynamic in many games where I end up hoarding money because nothing is worth purchasing, only to blow it all on the few absurdly expensive end-game items. So long as there are meaningful uses for money throughout the game, enough to where I want to spend it continually and earn more, I shall be content.

[Pipyui]

The multiple currencies thing has been mentioned by Sawyer a bunch of times in various places. It's not my idea, it's his, and I believe he's mentioned that he wants to do it in PE. While I'm sure he'd cut it if it ended up not working, it is as much of a "lock" as anything else so far confirmed about the game.

 

I'm sure he knows what he's doing then.  To me the idea seems like it could be neat, but could just as easily end up annoying.  I suppose it doesn't particularly need stating, but I'd rather devs put frills into my games only if they are inspired, and not just for the sake of tacking them on.  This early in development sounds like inspired frilling.

 

... So long as there are meaningful uses for money throughout the game, enough to where I want to spend it continually and earn more, I shall be content.

 

And that is a whole other ball game, my friend.  A difficult one to address at that, I would wager.  I'm with you on these sentiments though - I'd like to see a lot of consideration put into the economy game of PE.  I actually had a thread about it at some point, but suspect I made a mess of it.

 

Edit: Tomorrow morning I shall return to these midnight ramblings and surely offend or otherwise confuse myself, so I'll apologize in advance:  Sorry.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Pipyui

[Cultist]

Currencies is acceptable for me...if they are decimal. 100 copper = 1 silver. 100 siilver = 1 gold, doesnt' mater, anything likethat will do. But not if i have to deal with 156 shillings = 12 crowns= 1 sovereign.

[Osvir]

Well, @OP, I agree with you about DA:O somewhat. However, I see a lot of potential usage of a multiple currency system (which feels like it is never used). Mainly the use of "Social Status" & "Reputation".

A line from Breaking Bad (TV series) inspires me: "Anyone can be poor, but you have to learn to be rich". Being rich warrants attention, having lots of money is a sign of power, power and attention causes conflict. In this way I can think that copper, silver and gold can be quite interesting. Do you spend your "gold" wisely or do you throw it around you? Does the non-lethal/pacifist get through the crowd easier by acting less like a rich man, and more like a common man? "Hiding in plain sight".
 

Are there merchants that can be seen as "trusted sources", someone you can spend your gold on, someone that doesn't shout "Hey this guy has gold!"? Kind of... like-a-"Mike"-but-Merchant character. Specifically speaking about the Mike character from Breaking Bad.

Another question I have been curious about: How economically harsh is the world of P:E?

"Hierarchy of Currency": Just thoughts of what it could be
Copper - The Commoner's Coin (Low-Class)
Silver - The Merchant's Coin (Mid-Class)
Gold - The Noble's Coin (Upper-Class)

Though then the question is, how do you earn each one individually? How do you spend it? And on what?

Does a Merchant who sells a sword for 1 silver and 10 copper accept your pay of 110 copper or does he kick you out? How do you trade between currencies? How do I "upgrade" copper into silver? Into gold? If I don't have silver for the sword, can I then perhaps buy it for 150 copper instead? If I have 2 silver, does the merchant gladly take 2 silver or does he give 90 copper back? Again, what kind of Social "Status" does 2 silver have versus 200 copper?

It gets intricate (and imo intruiging), I believe it could make a very big difference in terms of immersion and in-depth World story (I wish to separate "World Story" and "Main Story" by a lot here, I think it gets easier to picture the perspective *shrug* and I also want to put an emphasis on [World] story here).
 

EDIT: What type of Social Status/Reputation Effects does lots of money have versus having almost none? Can you finish the game/story with little gold and well-placed/wise buys and less "hoarding" just as much as you can finish it if you do hoard and get as much gold as possible? What impact does each have on the rest of the game? Does anything change? Is it wise to have lots of gold or does that change anything in content? The less gold I have, I get other, more "underground" pathways forward? What I am thinking here is kind of:

 

- Lots of Coin, the Nobility takes note of you, you get into the Mansion by invite (gets hired for Quest).
- Little Coin, you take note of the Nobility, you get into the Mansion by disguise (robbery, stumbles into Quest).

Similarly:
- Lots of Coin: Bandits chase you. Assassin's. Gangsters etc. etc. people shout your name. Beggars annoy you for coin.
- Little Coin: You are the Assassin, you are the Gangster. Or you are simply a Rogue. A devious sneaky shadow that comes in, then leaves, no one even saw you. Someone else gets the blame. You can walk through crowds without hearing your name shouted at you. 

I honestly believe that "Coin" could be one way to manage the Lethal Playthrough vs the Non-Lethal Playthrough because:
 

1. Lots of Coin = More Power, More Attention = More Physical Conflict
2. Little Coin = Less Power, Less Attention = Less Physical Conflict

Edited April 2, 2013 by Osvir

[JFSOCC]

I think the benefits of different currencies are meant for gameplay. Being Wealthy in one currency but not another, and only being able to convert at stiff costs makes the wealth you garner throughout an area be significant throughout the game (whenever you return to that area) while you might still have to start from scratch in a new area. (unless you must absolutely have that one sword, in which case it's a weighed decision how much you convert at such stiff prices.

 

Might be interesting to see if different areas will pay different amounts for that "ancient treasure" you found, since those coins might be out of use.

Edited April 2, 2013 by JFSOCC

[rjshae]

Different currency systems should be abstracted. I want to play a FRPG, not Currency Exchange, the game.

[Duke]

. So long as there are meaningful uses for money throughout the game, enough to where I want to spend it continually and earn more, I shall be content.

 

This just popped into my head upon reading your comment... How's about if spending money was actually required to complete some quests or progress the story? I remember playing GTA: San Andreas when I was younger and there was one point where in order for the story to progress further, you had to buy an airstrip which cost $50 000. At that point in the game this was a significant amount of money and it's quite possible that you hadn't earned that much yet, so you had to actually go out and do some extra work to save up. It certainly gave you an appreciation of the value of money in the game.

[Nonek]

The problem I have with a simplified single coinage system is that of scale, say you can buy a meat pie or a pint for a gold piece, then that +12 hammer of swank iron of infamous potency should cost an exhorbitant amount of coinage, so much in fact that no human purse could carry so great an amount. It renders gold or whatever substance you deem precious in your setting as common and worthless, defeating the thrill of accomplishment when you come upon a hoard of legendary proportions (because you've got more in your hip pocket.) Now i'm not saying that Dragon Age got it right, the decimal system is horribly inorganic and far too clean for emergent nations, the coinage badly needed some individualisation instead of being just plain old copper, silver and gold, and one was never rewarded with enough to discourage the dreadful reliance on cheap indentikit loot trawling.

 

The great thing about complicated monetary systems in crpg's is that one can rely on the computer to do the donkey work, and ensure that they add the necessary flavour and verisimillitude to the world without become a hassle to manage and manipulate.

 

One thing that I would like to have acknowledged however is the status that vast wealth affords, the doors it opens, the company it attracts, and the jealousy that it fosters among those who desire an easy payday. Exclusive gentleman and ladies clubs, where the finest of society mingle and network, seeking advantage and angles amongst their peers, all served up in opulent luxury that is frankly sickening when contrasted to the slums, suddenly their doors are open to you. The powerful and prestigious inviting you to private dinners where they impress their need for coinage and support from your good person, the subtle threats they weave and the nebulous rewards they promise, requests that become all the more difficult to refuse the higher the askers status in society. Blackmailers, beggars, thieves intent on making off with what is yours and maybe even trusted friends who are tempted by the wealth that is so close and so easy to procure, just this one time and never again.

 

It would be interesting to have the purse strings of a potentate or two in your hand, and to play them like a puppet, under the auspices of gullible generosity and honest friendship. Or to be the financial crutch upon which an embattled government leans as it tries to fend off multiple threats and catastrophes, though maybe both of these situations are too high level for the initial outing of Eternity.

[Frenetic Pony]

I can actually speak to this professionally! I'm an econ major, and different currencies for different areas are worthless for most people. Unless you are an obsessive trader, and the currency exchanges fluctuate, and you want to profit off that, the idea is pointless.

 

"But what if buying X is cheaper in rubie shells than in murdoc husks" most players? Either you just exchange murdoc's for rubie's and buy it, which just ends up taking more time. Or exchanging one type of money for another costs YOU money, in which case the player hates the devs cause WHY? Or you can't exchange at all in which case you just start banging your head against the table.

 

Also, if only certain things can even BE bought with certain currencies, well anyone who's played Borderlands 2 long enough knows to hate the very sight of iridium. It might be neat for lore, but as a game mechanic its almost certainly near worthless.

 

 

As for Gold/Silver/Copper. What's easier to read? "89 gold, 79 silver, 12 copper." or "897,912 gold." The former, even though it's longer, is a bit more understandable. Then again the psychological value of money is a very real thing (ever noticed how you're more reluctant to spend one twenty that to spend 4 fives?). Maybe they can just make it sound more valuable than copper or whatever.

[Somna]

Tiered Currencies:

 

I don't think tiered currencies (the platinum/gold/silver/copper breakdown) are handled correctly in games.

 

When you look at how money is used in real life, what do you normally see floating around? For the U.S., you'd see coins (Pennies, Nickels, Dimes, Quarters) and $1.00 to $20.00 bills normally. People know that $50.00 and $100.00 bills exist, and they're not exactly rare, but the large denomination doesn't get used normally.

 

So when you look at game currency, you'd normally expect to see something similar. For example, correlating game currency to US currency:

Usage tier    -- RL Currency   -- Game or D&D Currency
Poor          -- <$1 Coins     -- Copper
Normal        -- $1, $5, $10   -- Silver
Oddity        -- $2, $1 coin   -- Electrum
Affluent      -- $20 & checks  -- Gold
Rich          -- $50+ & checks -- Platinum

(I'm only familiar with US currency, but I'm confident others can fall into similar tiers)

 

With this sort of equivalence, this is what I'd expect to see:

You see Poor and Normal tiered currencies everywhere. Everyone uses them. Oddity tiered currencies do pop up as well, but not frequently enough to warrant grouping it in; they are not inconvenient enough for people to avoid using.

 

Affluent tier currency is where you start getting into more massive purchases, no matter what is being purchased. As a result, it best represents the large purchases a normal person can make, and carrying too many of them may make payment a little awkward if you were trying to be efficient with your money.

 

However, Rich tier currency is where it really hurts. It's practically a status symbol of being rich if you make all your purchases with this, but depending on where you frequently make purchases, it can limit where you can purchase things in the wrong neighborhood. For things that are at this large amount, at this point, it's simply easier to handle transactions on credit and IOUs.

 

Tiered currency makes sense in a game that can actually make this sort of distinction. If the game can't do that, I agree with the sentiment that the plat/gold/silver/copper breakdown is worthless.

 

Regional Currencies:

 

Regarding regional currencies (i.e. different currencies in different regions), part of my thoughts behind it (because I've suggested it before) are:

 

War/Peace states -- One country is at war with the other? Don't expect your money to convert well.

 

Origin flavor -- Can be used for quests/event triggers, depending on the origin of the money. Example: Spend some of that foreign currency to get the attention of the local thieves guild, who wants to smuggle goods in from the other country -- with your help!

 

More controlled options -- Aloof craftsman only accepts one type of currency as proof that you are aiding his compatriots. Either spend a ton to convert to that currency, or actually help them out to get the currency needed. (I'd rather earn and spend, say, 50 of one currency to spend on a trophy item than see a one-size-fits-all price that's 100x to 200x higher.)

[Boo's Brother Hoo]

Different currency systems should be abstracted. I want to play a FRPG, not Currency Exchange, the game.

I agree, debating the merits of stuff like this can be a fun exercise, but lets be serious...does anyone really care enough about what the money is called or how realistic it is?  Enough to add plenty of man-hours and money to the budget of a game? I certainly don't, just like I don't care all that much how dead bodies are dealt with.

 

Example:  Fallout New Vegas had 3 different currencies.  Cool concept.  Then about 5 minutes later I ignored that and systematically converted everything into caps.  NCR bills and Legion coins were just as meaningful to me as old-world money, the light but somewhat valuable trading item. 

[Lephys]

I agree, debating the merits of stuff like this can be a fun exercise, but lets be serious...does anyone really care enough about what the money is called or how realistic it is?

No, but "50 gold" is a lot easier to make an example with than "50 units of money that are worth a lot but not quite the most that units of money can be worth in this game world." And how "realistic" the money is is simply a happenstancical, contextual trait. You can't implement currency in a game without it relating, in any way, to currency in real life, since they are both functioning as currency functions. So, why not take whatever lessons we can from currency in real life, if we're emulating currency in a virtual world?

 

[Cultist]

Different currencies only make sense if there's actual economy system working in the game, otherwise there's n difference between 150 gold or 100 gold and 50 silver.

Reason - we are playing a computer game. All calculations are made for us. Unless, of course devs want to implemet athmospheric, but insanely annoying system like street money changers. And I bet noone would like to deal with it. So better have one currency.

[Barothmuk]

Different currency systems should be abstracted. I want to play a FRPG, not Currency Exchange, the game.

Why not both?

 

When I play a roleplaying game I like the setting to be as developed and cohesive as possible. A fully fleshed out and organic economy would only enhance both the setting and the game for me.

 

As a matter of fact I recall one thread on these boards requesting for the writers to take into account the commodity of magic and how it would influence the economy when constructing the setting.  Example: the idea that raw materials would lose value and instead it would be the unique products of artisans that would be in highest value and demand. Little stuff like that would not only enhance the setting but (dare I say) enhance immersion.

 

But I digress.

 

I wouldn't object to their being one uniform currency (e.g. 1gp, 2gp, 10gp etc) but I vastly prefer more types of currency. The former is just so trite and dull.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Barothmuk

[Jarmo]

I'd like to see gold coins be worth a lot. Maybe equivalent of $1000 or so per coin.

 

And never see amounts like 14 thousand GP's in you pocket, that being a 100 kg's worth or so.

 

Most every D&D inspired RPG has GP's and everything with meaning costs something in GP's.

And then you have silver and bronze and whatever crap you might need in the first 15 minutes of the game,

but after that everything is expensive and you have plenty of cash. 

 

It's like trying to get enough to switch to a better car,

it doesn't really matter whether you get $1500 and 15 cents for something or just the $1500. 

 

Maybe gold and silver would be necessary as magic reagents, so magic wouldn't lower the prices but drive them up? Gems as well.

 

Multiple national currencies then. Would be fine if done right, which I can't remember ever seeing.

Fallout NV had this done poorly, you had caps which were fine everywhere and then other currencies which you never used or needed.

I can almost see how it could be fun to lose money exchanging cash to pearls or something and then back to cash. But not quite.

[Barothmuk]

A personal beef I had with the economic depiction in DA:O was that everything was distributed at the same monetary rate everywhere.

 

If something was worth one gold piece in the capital city it'd be worth the same in a back alley slum. A game that [suprisingly] depicted a more traditional capitalistic market was Paper Mario: TTYD. The cost of inns would be dependent on the expected wealth of the local area and the price of an item would be dependent on the area in which it was bought and not exclusively just the item itself.

 

Naturally this could be exploited. Example: You could purchase a fire-flower in a tropical location for a relatively cheap price, travel to a snowy town and then sell it for profit.

 

Quite a clever little feature for a children's game.

 

Multiple national currencies then. Would be fine if done right, which I can't remember ever seeing.

Fallout NV had this done poorly, you had caps which were fine everywhere and then other currencies which you never used or needed.

I can almost see how it could be fun to lose money exchanging cash to pearls or something and then back to cash. But not quite.

This is a neat idea too.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Multiple national currencies then. Would be fine if done right, which I can't remember ever seeing.

Fallout NV had this done poorly, you had caps which were fine everywhere and then other currencies which you never used or needed.

I can almost see how it could be fun to lose money exchanging cash to pearls or something and then back to cash. But not quite.

 

If you never used NCR $ or (especially) Legion currency in F:NV you deprived yourself of a lot of money.  A Legion denarius is worth 4 caps and an aureus is worth 100.  Currency items aren't affected by the sell rate of the vendor or Barter skill of the Courier.

 

While I would have liked to have done more with currency in F:NV, I don't regret including the different currency types.  I believe they helped further flesh out the world and characterize the factions in it.

[Nonek]

If I may ask Mr Sawyer, how advanced do you envisage banking and economies to be in Eternity, Templar letters of credit, italian merchant houses, or something completely different? I ask because I wondered if we might have such letters of credit, and whether minted currencies will entail national pride like they so often do in our world, maybe even create colloquialisms such as the english, "sound as a pound."

[Grape_You_In_The_Mouth]

I would have to agree with Pipyui's first post that multiple currencies haven't been good contributions to the games I've played (I just bought FO:NV, so can't comment there). 

 

However I do see some real potential with faction development, because your faction choices then determine what types of currencies you get, and your actions can help or hurt a faction and then even have an effect on the strength of your currencies.  The idea that allegiance grants you one type of riches and limits you from others is still a part of typical RPG design in the form of loot, though.  Multiple currencies would be different only in that they'd be a faction achievement that changes as the faction's prosperity changes (dollar goes up/down), and a direct symbol of the trade-offs you've made (some faction money not exchangeable/devalued elsewhere).

 

I would think this would be real easy for modders to mod out if they don't like it also.

[Lephys]

What would be interesting is if gold/silver/copper (for example) had different utilities than simply being multiples of each other. i.e. Even if 1 gold = 10 silver and 1 silver = 10 copper, one merchant might charge 2 gold for something, or 28 silver, or 350 copper. So, having the actual gold piece would benefit you better, there, than just having an equivalent amount of other coins. Might even be that a merchant/person values silver more than gold, or even copper (that would be pretty rare, I would think, though, and a bit strange). OR, gemstones. Maybe a ruby is appraised at 10 gold pieces in value. well, the merchant might accept 1 ruby as payment for something, or 12 gold. Maybe he values the ruby more than the gold.

 

Subtle things... it shouldn't be enough to make you go "Well, crap, I'd better hunt around for someone who can exchange all my copper, silver, and gold for rubies, now" every single time you want to buy a vegetable. BUT, it should be enough to make the difference in currency matter. The more expensive things would present a benefit to those who actually spend their money wisely. Did you just haphazardly trade those 3 rubies you had for some 30-gold item? Well, you could've gotten 36 gold worth of stuff from this other guy for 3 rubies. It's not the end of the world, because you can just give him 36 gold (you don't even necessarily have to buy anything from him). But, you look at how many times, throughout the game, you'll find pricey items you want, and it adds up. Alternatively, you'll run into things and say "Aww, I'm pretty low on gold right now... this thing costs 36 gold. Wait, this guy loves rubies?! Luckily, I have some rubies!" Boom... Discount.

 

It's more interesting when it comes to various actual currencies, rather than different weights of coin, like Josh's reference to, well, faction currency, for lack of a better term, from Fallout: NV. Even though it's all got value everywhere, it might have more or less situational value.

 

That, and the difference of the currencies not dropping down to crappy value when your Barter skill is low or the merchant's is ultra high. Those are the little details that make multiple currencies a reinforcement to the game, rather than an arbitrary complexity.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Lephys

[Jarmo]

 

 

If you never used NCR $ or (especially) Legion currency in F:NV you deprived yourself of a lot of money.  A Legion denarius is worth 4 caps and an aureus is worth 100.  Currency items aren't affected by the sell rate of the vendor or Barter skill of the Courier.

 

While I would have liked to have done more with currency in F:NV, I don't regret including the different currency types.  I believe they helped further flesh out the world and characterize the factions in it.

 

 

Oh I obviously did exchange for caps all the legion and ncr money I got and then spent it. Saying it was done poorly, I didn't mean the game was worse for the multiple currencies, just that the impact was almos nonexistent. The atmosphere was there indeed, steam says I've spent 328 hours in NV, which doesn't happen If I don't enjoy the game.

 

I did wonder if caps had weight in hardcore mode, or if the were intended to, because that would have made sense in a way. But while I loved the idea of needing to sleep and drink and spend time to heal,  I was already struggling between collectors syndrome, hauling everything around while wanting a smart guy so had limited strength. So ammo weight was a deal breaker, seemed all too much a hassle, realistic or not.

 

(Wished there was a bunch of tick-boxes instead of just "hardcore".)

[Lephys]

(Wished there was a bunch of tick-boxes instead of just "hardcore".)

"Gelcore!"

 

It's hard when reacting to abrupt impact/change, but soft when pressure is slowly applied. ^_^