Tired of the cliched set of Arcane Elements?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

"New" elements?

 

MEh, there's a reason these are classic. It's relaly hard to justify "polymorph" as an element..

 

How about "school of magic", then?

[Somna]

 

 

"New" elements?

 

MEh, there's a reason these are classic. It's relaly hard to justify "polymorph" as an element..

 

How about "school of magic", then?

I was getting that kind of impression from the poll, myself.

[moridin84]

 

"New" elements?

 

MEh, there's a reason these are classic. It's relaly hard to justify "polymorph" as an element..

 

How about "school of magic", then?

 

Transmutation?

 

It's been done. 

[AGX-17]

Cyphers will bring mind control with them....and will probably be the only class I ever play. Still I am fairly certain Obsidian will go well outside of the realm of everything that's been done before with this game....at least with the story. There are no greater storytellers out there than Obsidian(except maybe inXile) so when they say they want to keep the story completely under wraps until the game ships you know it's going to be mind blowing.

Psshhhhh, inXile. Pssshhhh. They don't have MCA. Besides, elements and magic are more in the realm of the gameplay mechanics/design, it's true that the writers will have input on that area, but it's still up to the higher level game designers to actually determine the mechanics and what ultimately comes out of their ideas on magic or elements. It's being helmed by Sawyer so I don't see any problems in that realm of design. Avellone, so far as I know, is just working on writing. So far as I know.

 

 

Also, I needed to say this: OP, the idea of real-world chemical elements in a fantasy magic game about souls is just absurd. Absolutely ludicrous. Absoludicrous (© Seanbaby.) There's no "magic" in physics and cosmology unless you're using figurative speech about a personal interest and fascination.

Edited March 14, 2013 by AGX-17

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

"New" elements?

 

MEh, there's a reason these are classic. It's relaly hard to justify "polymorph" as an element..

 

How about "school of magic", then?

 

Transmutation?

 

It's been done. 

 

Yeah, but the fact that - for example - projectile-type spells which do poison damage had been done before doesn't make throwing a freshly summoned, pulsating, luminous, extradimensional jellyfish at your opponents and watch as it pokes their eyes out with its venomous tentacles any less satisfying (and/or awesome).

[Ffordesoon]

Also, I needed to say this: OP, the idea of real-world chemical elements in a fantasy magic game about souls is just absurd. Absolutely ludicrous. Absoludicrous (© Seanbaby.)

Uh, why is it absurd?

 

That's an honest question. I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out why a game with equipment presumably synthesized through processes dependent on crudely realized chemical reactions shouldn't have real-world chemical elements in it, especially if their properties are adapted to the game's universe. Those elements are in most fantasy universes, after all; I'm no scientist, but I'm pretty sure iron (swords, shields, etc.) and gold (coins) are on the real periodic table that exists in real life, right? Why shouldn't more interesting things be done with those elements than sticking their names on a weapon to denote how powerful it is? What valid, logical reason is there not to at least explore that idea?

 

For that matter, I admit I haven't been here very long, but every post of yours I've seen has been one putting another person down for suggesting an idea. Do you have any of your own ideas to offer, or are you just here to put people down? Because the latter isn't exactly helpful, you know. :?

[moridin84]

 

 

 

"New" elements?

 

MEh, there's a reason these are classic. It's relaly hard to justify "polymorph" as an element..

 

How about "school of magic", then?

 

Transmutation?

 

It's been done. 

 

Yeah, but the fact that - for example - projectile-type spells which do poison damage had been done before doesn't make throwing a freshly summoned, pulsating, luminous, extradimensional jellyfish at your opponents and watch as it pokes their eyes out with its venomous tentacles any less satisfying (and/or awesome).

 

How about spiders or toads?

 

I said on the previous page but Diablo 3 has really good examples of what the op is talking about. Tornados, shockwaves, swarms of locust, even summoning suicidal waves of zombies. 

[Ffordesoon]

Yes, as loath as I am to admit it given how disappointing the game was overall, D3 did a fine job with spell variety, at least visually.

[mcmanusaur]

So am I the only one who typically rolls my eyes when confronted with some newfangled version of magic that shuns the classical elements in favor of something theoretically more edgy and fanciful (but practically abstruse and nebulous) and focuses instead on hopeless abstractions? I'm not saying that breaking the elemental mold can't be done well, but too many games try and fail at this in an attempt to freshen a conventional mechanic that- in the case of magic- is often lackadaisical at best and overbearing at worst...

[TrashMan]

Earth? Fire? Water? Air?   Pffft... what kind of idio considers THOSE an element?

 

We all know the world is made of rage, p0rn and foul language. And some other, minor stuf like love.

 

Those new elements have to be included. Immagine summoning a swarm of flying d****!

Your enemy would **** their pants in fear.

[Darth Trethon]

 

Cyphers will bring mind control with them....and will probably be the only class I ever play. Still I am fairly certain Obsidian will go well outside of the realm of everything that's been done before with this game....at least with the story. There are no greater storytellers out there than Obsidian(except maybe inXile) so when they say they want to keep the story completely under wraps until the game ships you know it's going to be mind blowing.

Psshhhhh, inXile. Pssshhhh. They don't have MCA. Besides, elements and magic are more in the realm of the gameplay mechanics/design, it's true that the writers will have input on that area, but it's still up to the higher level game designers to actually determine the mechanics and what ultimately comes out of their ideas on magic or elements. It's being helmed by Sawyer so I don't see any problems in that realm of design. Avellone, so far as I know, is just working on writing. So far as I know.

 

 

Also, I needed to say this: OP, the idea of real-world chemical elements in a fantasy magic game about souls is just absurd. Absolutely ludicrous. Absoludicrous (© Seanbaby.) There's no "magic" in physics and cosmology unless you're using figurative speech about a personal interest and fascination.

Actually they do....that's what makes Cyphers unique....didn't you read the updates when the stretch goal adding the cyphers was made? Mind control or at least heavy mind influence is their thing.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

How about spiders or toads?

 

They lack the cthulhuesque "ooomph" of my example

 

Although there is potential in spiders.

Edited March 15, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I'm not really concerned with new elements. A rose by another name. Any garden variety bolt spell is still a generic bolt spell no matter the element attached to it. The single most interesting thing about D&D has been it's spellcasting system. Observe:

 

Grim Revenge
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, Undead (caster must be undead)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One living humanoid
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The hand of the subject tears itself away from one of his arms, leaving a bloody stump. This trauma deals 6d6 points of damage. Then the hand, animated and floating in the air, begins to attack the subject. The hand attacks as if it were a wight (see the Monster Manual) in terms of its statistics, special attacks, and special qualities, except that it is considered Tiny and gains a +4 bonus to AC and a +4 bonus on attack rolls. The hand can be turned or rebuked as a wight. If the hand is defeated, only a regenerate spell can restore the victim to normal.

 

This is an interesting spell. This is what using magic is about. It's these kinds of interesting spells that make magic in games worth anything. I have no interest in [Element] Orb spell iterations. These are insipid and banal. To me, interesting spell verge making or breaking a fantasy game. This is one area where I deeply hope Obsidian comes through.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Mr. Magniloquent

[Crowseye]

Illusions, enchantments, curses, transmutation, commanding nature, commanding spirits and the undead ... all have been done (DnD includes all of them). 

 

I think the issue is really that, as developers have branched out to create their own IPs, a heavy emphasis has been placed on metaphysics and a setting's internal logic.  It is much easier to maintain internal logic and consistency with elemental magic, because players grasp that magic users are playing with the "stuff" that physically makes up the setting.

 

By contrast, what are illusions, curses, or transmutations?  I think we all grasp what they do, but how do they work in mechanical terms that are consistent with the rules laid out by the setting?  I can say that an elementalist draws or concentrates power from the elements that make up the universe, or opens a pathway to some elemental realm ... but what is the process by which one influences a mind or places a curse on someone?  

 

It's not impossible to come up with logic and rules to fit alternative types of magic, but it takes a certain amount of effort and creativity that either isn't plentiful in the industry or doesn't offer the type of benefits developers are looking for for the effort involved.

[Bonecrusher]

 

"New" elements?

 

MEh, there's a reason these are classic. It's relaly hard to justify "polymorph" as an element..

 

How about "school of magic", then?

 

I don't think elemental system is an issue. You can have both magic schools and elemental system at the same time. Some people think only magic cast is fire/water/air/earth based, however you already have other types of spells, thanks to the school of magic systems - D&D, Elder Scrolls, World Of Darkness, etc...

OP said Fire, water, ice, earth, lightning but this is not a common type of element order. Usually Fire/Air/Earh/Water are the "primary" elements and Lightning/Ice/Wood/Lava are the "combined" elements.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Bonecrusher

[Chairchucker]

I always kind of interpreted the traditional 'elements' as being more 'states of matter'. So you have solid (earth), liquid (water), gaseous (air and kind of fire) and love (Milla Jovovich.)

 

Or something along those lines.

[Bonecrusher]

solid liquid gas plasma?

[TrashMan]

I'm not really concerned with new elements. A rose by another name. Any garden variety bolt spell is still a generic bolt spell no matter the element attached to it. The single most interesting thing about D&D has been it's spellcasting system. Observe:

 

Grim Revenge

Necromancy [Evil]

Level: Sor/Wiz 4

Components: V, S, Undead (caster must be undead)

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Target: One living humanoid

Duration: Instantaneous

Saving Throw: Fortitude negates

Spell Resistance: Yes

 

The hand of the subject tears itself away from one of his arms, leaving a bloody stump. This trauma deals 6d6 points of damage. Then the hand, animated and floating in the air, begins to attack the subject. The hand attacks as if it were a wight (see the Monster Manual) in terms of its statistics, special attacks, and special qualities, except that it is considered Tiny and gains a +4 bonus to AC and a +4 bonus on attack rolls. The hand can be turned or rebuked as a wight. If the hand is defeated, only a regenerate spell can restore the victim to normal.

 

This is an interesting spell. This is what using magic is about. It's these kinds of interesting spells that make magic in games worth anything. I have no interest in [Element] Orb spell iterations. These are insipid and banal. To me, interesting spell verge making or breaking a fantasy game. This is one area where I deeply hope Obsidian comes through.

 

You make the classic mistake of making something that sounds "cool" but completely forget the unfortunate implications that it creates.

 

Those beign that with magic you command body parts to tear themselves free...or animate them (and other objects) as you see fit.

 

Which then begs the question - why not simply command the heart to tear itself from the chest? Or head to tear itself from the shoulders?

Why not animate all the body parts from a recent battlefield into a giant flesh golem? Or assorted tins, pans and pot into a walking metal monster?

[Chairchucker]

Yeah I dunno none of them seem all that plasmaish. Plasmaesque? Whatevs. Maybe less was known about plasma by the Greeks or whoever it was. Also I basically slept through Chemistry so... yeah.

[Chairchucker]

You make the classic mistake of making something that sounds "cool" but completely forget the unfortunate implications that it creates.

Those beign that with magic you command body parts to tear themselves free...or animate them (and other objects) as you see fit.

 

Which then begs the question - why not simply command the heart to tear itself from the chest? Or head to tear itself from the shoulders?

Why not animate all the body parts from a recent battlefield into a giant flesh golem? Or assorted tins, pans and pot into a walking metal monster?

 

I could be wrong but it seems like you think he made that spell up when in fact I'm pretty sure he ripped it straight from DnD.

 

In answer to all of your 'why not' questions, I believe that many of them are also spells in DnD. So the answer to 'why not' is 'that's not what this particular spell does, but there are others which do something more like what you're suggesting.'

[TrashMan]

Which begs the question why ever use that spell to begin with, when the "rip heart out" is far more efficient, direct and deadly.

[Chairchucker]

Which begs the question why ever use that spell to begin with, when the "rip heart out" is far more efficient, direct and deadly.

 

Indeed, why ever cast magic missile when power word: kill is more effective? The mysteries of spells and their relative power.

[TrashMan]

And why would ripping out a heart require more power than ripping out an arm?

 

See what the problem is when the magic is allowed to do too much without any limitations?

[Iucounu]

Of course there should be elements, but schools of magic as well (or some other structure for an intelligent magic system). If Obsidian came up with a boring fire/ice/lighting magic like in Diablo, PE would be pretty much dead for me. 

Magic is just a key factor for me in such games. Basically, I think everything should be possible with the right sort of magic. Even the mind shouldn't be reserved only to Blickers, but to very powerful mages with specialised spells aswell, although perhaps not so powerful, or just different in nature. For example, the effect that Blickers become more powerful the more minds are nearby, could be something that is very difficult to translate into some spell. 

[Chairchucker]

And why would ripping out a heart require more power than ripping out an arm?

 

See what the problem is when the magic is allowed to do too much without any limitations?

 

Game systems can have any number of explanations, or none at all. Perhaps because one can't see the heart. Perhaps because it is more firmly embedded in the chest than a hand is attached to an arm. Perhaps for some nebulous reason involving the person's body more strongly resisting attacks against more vital organs. Perhaps because 'game balance'.

 

Also I'm really not sure what your second sentence has to do with this particular conversation arc given that the example had rather specific limitations.