A Spell-free Project Eternity?

[Juneau]

 

 

 

 

 

 

They're both if I remember my religion correctly ^.

 

Though you still avoided the question of how can magic be inherently evil but using weapons to do harm not.

 

And, as I said, Acts... Simon... the magician who was baptised and did good.

Easily, weapon was made by man, magic is product of devil and thus evil. Still I would be interested how frgodfrey or his churche look on divine magic? (miracles or magic from god). How can someone decide if effect of magic is from God or from Satan?

magic is product of devil and thus evil.... Really? So the miracles performed by Jesus through his spiritual powers from God isn't a form of magic? Or couldn't be classed as magic?

Did you even read my post? I asked a same question. And I fear I know the answear - Vatican. And yes, magic from God are miracles and thus ok, magic from any other source is diabolic and using it even for good reasons corupt soul of magician and attracting devils (thats what I think about christian viewpoint on magic)

In that case no I didn't I read the first line and must of blanked over the rest. My bad.

[Luridis]

I do not have a moral objection to using magic in games, but only an objection based on my personal efficiency in using spell-casters.  I don’t think I will have a problem with “soul-generated powers” either, unless they are complicated to use.

 

I used the phrase “real magic” for convenience sake, since the topic was “in-game spells” commonly referred to as magic.  What is referred to as magic in games corresponds to  preternatural activity in real life—that is, an activity whose cause is partially (with the addition of material substances) or fully outside the natural material order.  Other common terms are “supernatural” or “miraculous.” 

 

Only a being that is not restricted by this material world’s natural laws is capable of producing preternatural activity.  (Whether one believes in their existence or not is another matter, I am only giving the principles).  As far as the Church can determine, the only such beings are God himself and the pure spiritual beings he created: angels (both good and those who fell from grace).  Those are the only two sources—although the fallen angels (demons) try to convince their victims that they are some kind of “neutral” spirit or anything other than a demon (for obvious reasons).  As a priest, I know of one exorcism personally where this is exactly what the victim was told and it was extremely difficult and time-consuming to convince the poor woman of the reality of her situation.  After almost 2 years of counseling and a trip to the exorcist (who did not actually use the rite) she was finally freed.

 

Because the good angels desire only what God desires, they do not act independently from him, and so their activity can be considered as an extension of God’s activity for the sake of simplicity.  Therefore, such activity can never contradict God’s will in any way (unless one holds that God need not be perfect).

 

By the process of elimination, if any preternatural activity can be shown to contradict God’s laws or revealed truths, the activity is demonic—including cases where some material good results (as in so-called “white magic”).  Demons have a vast experience in how to spiritually ruin people, and they are not against making certain concessions to “the good” (especially a mere material good) for the sake of a greater spiritual gain for themselves later in the course of someone’s life.

 

Such a shame that Dante's dogma just won't die, or that of Constantine and Irenaeus of Lyons. We wouldn't have half the religious conflicts that exist if they did. If not for your diction, I would have accused you of posting flame-bait on the spot.

 

I don't think you'll be required to use spells if you do not want to. Whether or not Obsidian will force caster henchmen into your party is something that only they can answer.

 

I should add that Monks within the game will likely be of the far east flavor (Shaolin) as opposed to the Catholic variety. I find that frustrating myself as I'd love to play a "Friar Tuck" who runs about in robes thwacking the unholy with my trusty quarterstaff.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Luridis

[rjshae]

I should add that Monks within the game will likely be of the far east flavor (Shaolin) as opposed to the Catholic variety. I find that frustrating myself as I'd love to play a "Friar Tuck" who runs about in robes thwacking the unholy with my trusty quarterstaff.

 

Wasn't Friar Tuck essentially just an itinerant, glutinous Priest?

[Luridis]

Wasn't Friar Tuck essentially just an itinerant, glutinous Priest?

 

How dare er um... Well, I suppose you're right; he did like his mead.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Luridis

[Tsuga C]

 

I should add that Monks within the game will likely be of the far east flavor (Shaolin) as opposed to the Catholic variety. I find that frustrating myself as I'd love to play a "Friar Tuck" who runs about in robes thwacking the unholy with my trusty quarterstaff.

 

Wasn't Friar Tuck essentially just an itinerant, glutinous Priest?

No, he was a glutenous priest--preferred wheat beer! 

[Luridis]

In short, I find that people, virtually regardless of their philosophy, can find ways to justify almost any act. It's both a source of great endurance and a fatal flaw in our character. But at least it makes for interesting drama.

 

And in your statement is the truth, good and evil are subjective and ultimately tied to the narrow and intimately personal porthole from which we view another. Very similar to the way reality itself is subjective to an observer. I believe there was once a somewhat well known scientist by the name of Einstein that had a well known theory that revolved around the idea that reality is relative to the observer.

 

Now, if we just had a definitive way to find out if intent on the part of the observer has any effect on the collapse of quantum super position... Hell, we'd have an explanation for a whole lot of things now, wouldn't we?

 

Pardon my digression of the thread, I have no real intent to hijack here.

[Heresiarch]

I sense some hostility in this thread.

 

I know religion is a hot topic, but it seems some people can't wait for an opportunity to do a little religion bashing.

 

Their fervour is in part justified by how people try not to hurt anyone's "religious feelings" at the expense of everyone else. So people naturally got tired of all the self-righteousness. The outrage is not against Christianity, mind you, it's about suggesting that the game should conform to religious dogmas.

 

I am not trying to tell people what to believe in, but the fact that you believe in something doesn't make everything that does not conform to your faith or even jokes about it a taboo. If those things make you feel bad or insulted, you're too insecure or not strong enough in your faith to simply disregard them. So in a sense I am also hostile to the idea, but I believe that nothing like this is going to happen anyway.

[frgodfrey]

 

First you claim to be a monk, then a priest.  To which were you called?  Methinks I smell a rat...

 

His abbey checks out. They're Premontrian Canons Regular. Canons are kind of like priests who live in a monastic order, so it's quite possible for a canon to refer to himself either as a priest or a monk in good faith. It's a slightly unusual arrangement though as in most orders it's one or the other, as I understand it anyway.

The roles of a "monk" and priest are different in real life than in D&D.  A monk is simply a person who took (at least) the 3 vows of poverty, celibacy and obedience and lives in community.  That is their "vocation" in life and such people in modern times are simply referred to by the term "Religious."   The priesthood is actually something of a lower order, it is the job (so to speak) that an ordained man fulfills.  Both religious and secular people can be ordained priests: so you have religious (monk) priests (like Dominican, Franciscan, Benedictine, Norbertine and Carmelite priests) who are sometimes wearing a habit and are obedient to their religious superior, or you have secular priests (wearing black with the Roman collar) who do not take the vow of poverty and obey their local bishop.

You are right, I am a Canon (a religious of a type who has the additional duty of singing the daily Breviary prayers in choir)

[rjshae]

Now, if we just had a definitive way to find out if intent on the part of the observer has any effect on the collapse of quantum super position... Hell, we'd have an explanation for a whole lot of things now, wouldn't we?

 

I hold this weird conjecture that we live in a universe of 2-dimensional time, while sliding down a bell-shaped curve of increasing entropy. It is the conscious decisions we make that guide our path down this slope, and in so doing we all steer our own destiny. Completely unprovable, of course, and getting way off topic.

[Rabain]

Weren't we told at one point that we could complete this game solo?  If so then I can't see any problem with completing it without a magic user.

 

Pick up a couple of clerics and a paladin and you should have more than enough firepower to get through.

 

As for not being able to remember spells etc I don't think that will be any more complicated than having to remember all the different abilities the other classes have.  You might be able to hack away at any enemy with a sword but not using abilities or not understaning what they do is going to gimp you in a big way.

 

You could just as easily pick one spell on a spellcaster and then only use that one.  Magic missile to the face every time.

 

I think it will be very difficult to finish the game without using any ability that any class has.

[frgodfrey]

 

They're both if I remember my religion correctly ^.

 

Though you still avoided the question of how can magic be inherently evil but using weapons to do harm not.

 

And, as I said, Acts... Simon... the magician who was baptised and did good.

 

Easily, weapon was made by man, magic is product of devil and thus evil. Still I would be interested how frgodfrey or his churche look on divine magic? (miracles or magic from god). How can someone decide if effect of magic is from God or from Satan?

Please look at my post #61 where I have addressed the issue of good and bad "magic."  I am sorry, I am still learning the mechanics of the forum and was not sure where to place it.

As for Simon Magnus, if I remember correctly from my history, his goal was to make a material profit from the gospel and the miracles which the Apostles were performing, and so he was banished from their company with very harsh words.  His name is where we get the term "Simony" which is the crime of buying positions in the church.  The Early Church Fathers took a very dim view of him and considered him the origin of great evils.  So he is not a good example for your position, baptized or not.

[frgodfrey]

Weren't we told at one point that we could complete this game solo?  If so then I can't see any problem with completing it without a magic user.

 

Pick up a couple of clerics and a paladin and you should have more than enough firepower to get through.

 

As for not being able to remember spells etc I don't think that will be any more complicated than having to remember all the different abilities the other classes have.  You might be able to hack away at any enemy with a sword but not using abilities or not understaning what they do is going to gimp you in a big way.

 

You could just as easily pick one spell on a spellcaster and then only use that one.  Magic missile to the face every time.

 

I think it will be very difficult to finish the game without using any ability that any class has.

I was not aware of the ability of playing solo at the time of my initial post, but now, through reading all the information offered by so many helpful people, I also think it will not be a problem.  I can easily remember one or two abilities / spells per character, but more than that would bog me down.  I just was afraid that a player would have to be skilled at magic-user multi-tasking to win, that's all.  I am not a good multi-tasker.

[Tsuga C]

I just was afraid that a player would have to be skilled at magic-user multi-tasking to win, that's all.  I am not a good multi-tasker.

 

You'll be in for a tougher time than those players who characters readily use magic, but if you lower the difficulty level you should probably be able to get by without too many re-loads.  Save early, save often! 

[UpgrayeDD]

PS:  If you have a place in the game where Gregorian-style chant would be an appropriate addition, my abbey would probably let you record them during their prayers (we sing in both English and Latin).  It is St Michael's Abbey, not far from your offices.

 This sounds like an awesome idea.

[Luridis]

Oh, speaking of the chanting... From the epic of Order vs. Chaos I give you, "One moment of perfect beauty."

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

UpgrayDD is right, it would be awesome, Friar Godfrey, if OE would employ your chant capacity, as it were, to be used appropriately for certain environments in the game. 

[Jarmo]

I have never written in a forum before, so please pardon any mistakes I may make here.

 

 

PS:  If you have a place in the game where Gregorian-style chant would be an appropriate addition, my abbey would probably let you record them during their prayers (we sing in both English and Latin).  It is St Michael's Abbey, not far from your offices.

 

Not taking part in the rest of the discussion, but this sounds like an awesome possibility.

[PrimeJunta]

Yes, Gregorian chants FTW.

 

Also IMO the world is a slightly better place if it holds a Premontrian Canon Regular who enjoys computer RPG's. Give Brother a break, folks!

[JFSOCC]

 

I got an album from these guys called Legenda Aurea (also unfortunately the name of the band who did some music for twilight, screwing up my searches for the exact music I wanted to let you hear)

 

The album has 13th century music and it's really nice.

[Calmar]

Guys, seriously, how dare you be so rude towards frgodfrey?? He's not asking for the game to be changed in any way, he does not attack the cosmology of PE. And he does not ask to discuss his faith or world view.

 

His situation, as I understand it, is merely this:

• he wishes to enjoy the game without having to deal with a complicated magic system

Fair enough.

• his bosses would make a fuss if they discover he's using magic in the game, because they uncompromisingly disapprove of it.

Don't go crazy about that anti-magic world-view. Exchange "magic" with something you wouldn't want your bosses to see. Take, for example, nudity, or violence. One might instead ask now "is there a way to solve game X without having to play the parts that contain nudity or graphical violence?"

Would you want some wise guys to tell you how normal and ok naked ladies are, or how war and violence are a major force in the development of society and human civilisation, etc?

 

 

[Justin Bell]

PS:  If you have a place in the game where Gregorian-style chant would be an appropriate addition, my abbey would probably let you record them during their prayers (we sing in both English and Latin).  It is St Michael's Abbey, not far from your offices.

 

Hi Brother Godfrey, and welcome to the Project Eternity forums!   Thanks for supporting our project, and for your very generous offer.  I would love to discuss this with you further, and I'll send you a private message about this shortly.

 

Regarding your question of wetther you can form a party without magic users, unforunately I don't have an answer to that particular question.  However, I did pass your question on to Josh Sawyer, Eternity's Project Director.  He said he might be able to clarify this further, though I don't know when that may happen.

 

For what it's worth I think it's great that you still find the time to play games amongst your other duties, and I appreciate your thoughts on how that ties in with your vows as a monk and as a priest.  Thank you for sharing that.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yay, hope springs eternal! 

 

Perhaps there will be genuine chants in PE if we get lucky, all thanks to this contact with good Friar Godfrey.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Could you make it possible to play and win the game without employing a magic-user?

 

I am able to play games only occasionally and I find remembering spells and how to use them difficult from session to session (as opposed to simple slashing/stabbing weapons).  Another reason for the request is that my superiors don't care much for computer games in general, but a computer game that forces one to use magic (which in real life, always has ties to the diabolic) they would simply not allow.  I would get in trouble if they catch me, for sure.

 

 

You should be able to complete the game without using any character of a specific class, though certain parts will be more difficult if you have a spellcaster-free party.

 

As a side note, the history of European witch-hunting was my main focus of study in college.  Catholic (and later, Protestant) ideas about and stances on magic are nuanced and have changed a great deal over the centuries.  From Eymerich's distinctions between latria and dulia invocations for demonic aid to Kramer and Sprenger's writings (which were generally denounced by the clergy but popular among citizens) on maleficia as a separate, dark form of Satanic magic, ecclesiastical and lay writings on the subject cover a large spectrum.

[Nonek]

At least we can all agree, religious or not, that Dan Brown sucks.

[Luridis]

Guys, seriously, how dare you be so rude towards frgodfrey?? He's not asking for the game to be changed in any way, he does not attack the cosmology of PE. And he does not ask to discuss his faith or world view.

 

His situation, as I understand it, is merely this:

• he wishes to enjoy the game without having to deal with a complicated magic system

Fair enough.

• his bosses would make a fuss if they discover he's using magic in the game, because they uncompromisingly disapprove of it.

Don't go crazy about that anti-magic world-view. Exchange "magic" with something you wouldn't want your bosses to see. Take, for example, nudity, or violence. One might instead ask now "is there a way to solve game X without having to play the parts that contain nudity or graphical violence?"

Would you want some wise guys to tell you how normal and ok naked ladies are, or how war and violence are a major force in the development of society and human civilisation, etc?

 

Um... Who was being rude? Some of us made passing comments about religion, me included. However, I don't recall anyone personally attacking him. Admittedly, I thought him to be posting flame-bait at first, until he used the word preternatural. I've met few people whom know what it means, much less use it in any sort of non-formal writing.

 

BTW: Sean-nós may not qualify as "chanting" but ya'll may enjoy nonetheless.

 

http://youtu.be/X4Eu51gyHy8