Malcador Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 No my friend, you are mistaken. Russia would rather let thousands of people die than to accept that one of its "allies" is a brutal dictator and is prepared to use the might of his military to stop political dissension. In other words Syria. Russia could have prevented this civil war if it had voted for military action in the UN Security Council. Don't you feel ashamed with your government? Well, probably that and they need their base. Also I guess they're worried about post-NATO intervention Syria being a bad basketcase Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 The odds of Oby actually living in Russia are pretty slim Bruce. Honestly, why would you think that? Do you know something I don't. I am intrigued "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) BruceVC, on 25 Jan 2013 - 04:42, said: No my friend, you are mistaken. Russia would rather let thousands of people die than to accept that one of its "allies" is a brutal dictator and is prepared to use the might of his military to stop political dissension. In other words Syria. Russia could have prevented this civil war if it had voted for military action in the UN Security Council. Don't you feel ashamed with your government? No individual should feel ashamed of what their government does, unless they support it- in which case they won't feel ashamed anyway- as there's nothing any individual can do. Do you feel ashamed of your government's wholesale and unconditional support of Mugabe, having the worst war since WW2 (that's Congo, minimum 20x the deaths of Syria and still rising) practically on your doorstep, your police shooting strikers, your cricket team losing to New Zealand of all people, because you shouldn't unless you condone them. You'd also get a very long list of all the times leaders killing their own people is perfectly fine, because the leader happens to be supported by the West and uses the dehumaniser du jour- communist, terrorist, anarchist whateverist the current boogeyman ist. Edited January 24, 2013 by Zoraptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOK222 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 BruceVC, on 25 Jan 2013 - 04:42, said: No my friend, you are mistaken. Russia would rather let thousands of people die than to accept that one of its "allies" is a brutal dictator and is prepared to use the might of his military to stop political dissension. In other words Syria. Russia could have prevented this civil war if it had voted for military action in the UN Security Council. Don't you feel ashamed with your government? No individual should feel ashamed of what their government does, unless they support it- in which case they won't feel ashamed anyway- as there's nothing any individual can do. Do you feel ashamed of your government's wholesale and unconditional support of Mugabe, having the worst war since WW2 (that's Congo, minimum 20x the deaths of Syria and still rising) practically on your doorstep, your police shooting strikers, your cricket team losing to New Zealand of all people, because you shouldn't unless you condone them. You'd also get a very long list of all the times leaders killing their own people is perfectly fine, because the leader happens to be supported by the West and uses the dehumaniser du jour- communist, terrorist, anarchist whateverist the current boogeyman ist. Terrorist right now. Ka-ka-ka-ka-Cocaine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 BruceVC, on 25 Jan 2013 - 04:42, said: No my friend, you are mistaken. Russia would rather let thousands of people die than to accept that one of its "allies" is a brutal dictator and is prepared to use the might of his military to stop political dissension. In other words Syria. Russia could have prevented this civil war if it had voted for military action in the UN Security Council. Don't you feel ashamed with your government? No individual should feel ashamed of what their government does, unless they support it- in which case they won't feel ashamed anyway- as there's nothing any individual can do. Do you feel ashamed of your government's wholesale and unconditional support of Mugabe, having the worst war since WW2 (that's Congo, minimum 20x the deaths of Syria and still rising) practically on your doorstep, your police shooting strikers, your cricket team losing to New Zealand of all people, because you shouldn't unless you condone them. You'd also get a very long list of all the times leaders killing their own people is perfectly fine, because the leader happens to be supported by the West and uses the dehumaniser du jour- communist, terrorist, anarchist whateverist the current boogeyman ist. Actually I do feel ashamed of my governments handling of Zimbabwe, its a disgrace and has lead to major issues for the region. I support the Police in there handling of the miners strikes, so no issues there. You can be patriotic but pragmatic in your support of a governing political party. If the governing party makes bad decisions or questionable foreign policy decisions then you have a responsibility to raise this in the public domain, we do this in South Africa as we believe in free speech and this is a tenet of a Democracy You can't do this in Russia as they have limited free speech and most criticism of Putin is squashed or the people arrested. I stand by my point that the Russian handling of the Syrian crisis is a disgrace and they should be ashamed. PS: I'm impressed by your general knowledge of South African affairs. Where do you live? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 You shouldn't feel ashamed about how your government handles Zimbabwe, because there isn't anything that you can do about it. I don't like my (New Zealand, we get a fair bit of SA news since there are a lot of ex pats here) government's ambulance at cliff bottom attitude towards children's health much at all for example, but since I neither voted for them nor have given them any support on the matter whatsoever I put the blame where the blame lies, with them not me. If it really were true that you could not even show dissent in Russia then there's even less reason for Russians to feel ashamed of what their government does as it is (even more) unrepresentative and they don't even get a theoretical say in what it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 You shouldn't feel ashamed about how your government handles Zimbabwe, because there isn't anything that you can do about it. I don't like my (New Zealand, we get a fair bit of SA news since there are a lot of ex pats here) government's ambulance at cliff bottom attitude towards children's health much at all for example, but since I neither voted for them nor have given them any support on the matter whatsoever I put the blame where the blame lies, with them not me. If it really were true that you could not even show dissent in Russia then there's even less reason for Russians to feel ashamed of what their government does as it is (even more) unrepresentative and they don't even get a theoretical say in what it does. New Zealand, ouch. You must be loving the cricket at the moment (okay you did win the last one day game) I think you and I see the responsibility and opinion of a citizen of a country differently. I believe in activism and the importance of voicing your opinion. You can think your government is doing a good job in many areas but when it makes bad decisions either domestically or internationally you have a duty to say or do something. Therefore if my country decided to veto military action in the UN Security Council around any conflict and this lead directly to a civil war where thousands get killed, because one side happens to be in control of the military, I would be ashamed and make this point on radio and any forum I have access to where this ddiscussion was relevant. But I do see your point about the limited free speech in Russia so any disagreement with government would be ineffectual to a certain degree "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obyknven Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 My personal point of view:Idea, what bombings of citizens and destruction of their land infrastructure can help them looks so idiotic for me. Problems like this (Syria, Afghanistan, Mali) can't be resolved by military power. Look at Afghanistan for example. NATO fight there against Taliban to long, but can't win. Taliban popularity only increasing from this, their number are increasing, their influence spreading on neighbor regions. It's happen because external military intervention legalize their power. Without external enemy any radical regimes can't exist to long, people exhausted from this to fast and overthrow their. Anyway it must be own citizens decision. At last times West forgot about National self-determination right, but it's one of most important democratic right. If your government violate this, it's mean they are non-democratic IRL.P.S. Actually we have more freedom in Russia, than in any Western country. We always been too anarchic, government controls only most important sites, 90 % of territory have autonomous life. In time of civil war Germans occupied Ukraine and use 1 million soldiers for control this small part of Russia, but fail. Makhno and Petliura approve this. Because this, all these talks about repressions looks so non correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hm, that's not a bad point. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rostere Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html "Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html Gaah. I don't see how anyone can call these people Muslims. They're destroying records from one of the greatest Islamic learning centers in history. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html Gaah. I don't see how anyone can call these people Muslims. They're destroying records from one of the greatest Islamic learning centers in history. "I think that God meant to say was..." Edited January 28, 2013 by Meshugger 1 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html Shame. Surprised they didn't burn it all when they took the place rather than just when the French advanced. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obyknven Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html Conrad Nomicos from "This Immortal" by Roger Zelazny, do similar things. Through actions such as the deconstruction of the pyramids, Conrad makes the Vegans see that Earthlings would rather destroy the planet's riches than see them fall into the hands of others. On other side, nobody interests these texts before, but when they are destroyed all begin whining about them. Actually you can easy find medieval sacred texts in Internet and read them. But you don't do this, because you don't want read boring texts written by primitive ancestors. Do you worried about this loss, only because your media say do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Actually every 7th grader in California is taught about the history of Timbuktu and their legacy of Islamic scholars and universities. It's one of my favorite units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Conrad makes the Vegans see that Earthlings would rather destroy the planet's riches than see them fall into the hands of others.I always knew vegans were a breed apart. Never trust people who refuse to eat meat! “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rostere Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html Conrad Nomicos from "This Immortal" by Roger Zelazny, do similar things. Through actions such as the deconstruction of the pyramids, Conrad makes the Vegans see that Earthlings would rather destroy the planet's riches than see them fall into the hands of others. On other side, nobody interests these texts before, but when they are destroyed all begin whining about them. Actually you can easy find medieval sacred texts in Internet and read them. But you don't do this, because you don't want read boring texts written by primitive ancestors. Do you worried about this loss, only because your media say do this? I have no idea what the Timbuktu scrolls contained, however I have a great interest in archaeology (although primarily the ancient Middle East). In my personal library I have both the epic of Gilgamesh, the Enuma Elish (translated into Swedish by the brilliant Ola Wikander), a smaller number of more obscure texts, and a great number of treatises on excavations and such. Speaking of which, I can REALLY recommend the book "The Conquest of Assyria: Excavations in an Antique Land" by Mogens Trolle Larsen to anyone interested in history and the region (which sadly goes for $150 on Amazon...). EDIT: In short: I don't like documents from past cultures to be lost, but be made available so that we can enjoy our global cultural heritage. Edited January 29, 2013 by Rostere 1 "Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/28/british-troops-mali-mission Britain is going to be sending troops to Mali to assist with logistical and training support Well done UK, its good to see you assisting your French neighbors in this African mission Edited January 29, 2013 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Impressive logistical support for this war, heh. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I don't see why the hell we should back up the French on a new anti-militant mission when we're hammering away from Afghan like we stole all the crisps. A fun way to burn a couple of hours is to compare the solid logical foundations of UK foreign policy doctrine with the cowardly fethnuts who actually decide it. Also, hello 'obyknven'. Nice avatar, freedom space monkey. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 I don't see why the hell we should back up the French on a new anti-militant mission when we're hammering away from Afghan like we stole all the crisps. A fun way to burn a couple of hours is to compare the solid logical foundations of UK foreign policy doctrine with the cowardly fethnuts who actually decide it. Also, hello 'obyknven'. Nice avatar, freedom space monkey. I firmly believe that there are times when international intervention is required and necessary in certain countries internal politics. Mali needed assistance and the French and there allies provided it. This is a good thing and shows that the world does care, well certain countries care. "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Mali is sort of two conflicts in one. I don't think anyone outside the African continent would have batted an eyelid if it had been a conflict between independence seeking Tuaregs and the Mali central government. Problem is the "new" guys who moved in after getting evicted from parts of Somalia and nobody, including Mali's next door neighbours wants those anachronistic parasites to get a foothold anywhere, having amply displayed their skills in nation destruction and none in nation building. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obyknven Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Western stereotypical military stupidity. 26 january 2013. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/africa/130126/gao-airport-bridge-captured-mali-french-led-troops French-led troops in Mali have taken control of the airport in the northern town of Gao, a Islamist stronghold, the French Defense ministry said. Victory! 11 february 2013. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/10/us-mali-rebels-idUSBRE91902V20130210 Gunbattle rocks Gao after rebels surprise French, Malians ok, French "wins" again, but now 21 february 2013 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/21/us-mali-rebels-idUSBRE91K09D20130221 Reuters reporters in Gao in the country's desert north said French and Malian forces fired at the mayor's office with heavy machineguns after Islamists were reported to have infiltrated the Niger River town during a night of explosions and gunfire. http://youtu.be/Af74TTL2B0M French warfare looks so lame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obyknven Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 http://youtu.be/WkzXTgslFNE CLICK ON THE SUBTITLE ICON for the TRANSLATION in ENGLISH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSOCC Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 that was an interesting perspective. I suspect he's closer to the truth than we give him credit for. Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.---Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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