Degenerate Gameplay

[Fearabbit]

[bunch o' stuff]

Ohhhh, so now you only have problems with some of the D&D rules then? Well now, PE is going to have it's own ruleset. That has nothing to do with combat xp by the way.

What are you talking about, some of his dislikes were D&D rules, others weren't. O_o

 

- Misaligned incentives, such as combat XP (incentives for pointless murder rampages; Jaheira the druid killing wild animals for XP instead of rescuing them etc.)

Quest only xp prevents me from killing the poor animal, even if I just want to kill it for "fun" or it's pelt (loot)? Wow, that makes sense. Really, it does (not).

[...]

EDIT: I almost forgot. How will quest xp loot prevent me from going on a murder rage? Sure, it will be just as pointless as with a combat + quest xp system. But it is not the obligation of the game programmer to prevent you from going on ridiculous murder rages. Not to mention that removing combat xp won't prevent you from doing that anyway.

 

Quest only XP doesn't prevent you from anything. That's the good thing about it! You can totally go on murder rages, kill animals as a druid etc.

You're basically just making a strong argument for Quest only XP here: Yes, there ARE still enough reasons to do these things. Maybe you want the money, maybe you just enjoy killing things.

The point is, you do not need an additional reason to do this if you already have these other reasons. However, in a Combat XP system, NOT going on murder rages will put you at a disadvantage.

 

And that's where Valerion's Cat was totally right: These things, like grinding etc., they CAN be solved in a Combat XP environment.

But there are other reasons why Quest XP has advantages.

 

The discussion had a good start and some excellent posts from both sides. Valerion's Cat's first appearance, for example, just to name one from the side I'm not in favor of. However it has quickly gone out of hands, largely thanks to non-listeners like you (Helm) and UpgrayeDD (though I think he might not have done it on purpose). That is very sad.

I came to this discussion board just a few days ago because I was excited about the project. I really didn't expect this ugly bickering and all the endless "this is what an IE game is supposed to be like" arguments that go nowhere.

So now I'm a little wiser, and I think for the first time in my life, I will start making use of the "Ignore" button.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I didn't read all the thread, it was too much bickering going on and I am pressed for time. However, as for quest-based xp:

Even if we don't get xp per kill when on a murder rampage, I'd love to see Fallout New Vegas' solution: If you kill a certain number of times, or plunder a lot, or use a certain MO lots, then you've earned certain perks that make you better at that playstyle (and it appears regardless of levelling, unlike in Skyrim where perks were locked in trees, almost like MMO or Diablo skill trees). Also, a killing spree can net you nice gold and items, even if you don't get xp.

[Helm]

What are you talking about, some of his dislikes were D&D rules, others weren't. O_o

Every problem he had was either with the D&D system or game scripting (and not combat xp) except for one little thing. Which was ridiculous as I pointed out already.

 

Quest only XP doesn't prevent you from anything. That's the good thing about it! You can totally go on murder rages, kill animals as a druid etc. [...]

However, in a Combat XP system, NOT going on murder rages will put you at a disadvantage. [...] I really didn't expect this ugly bickering and all the endless "this is what an IE game is supposed to be like" arguments that go nowhere.

Yes it does, it prevents you from engaging in combat, because avoiding combat yields the best results. As we have said about 100 times. But anybody who hates combat would of course love this system.

Not to mention that looting could also make a moron go on a killing spree and players also want loot, a fact that you "quest xp only" lovers never mention. And combat loot is still in PE you know.

 

You don't have to kill everything or do every side quest in a game with combat + quest xp. If you think you do, then you are a moron. Not to mention that it is not the game designers responsibilty to (indirectly) prevent you from killing everything either for a) loot or b) xp just because some players can't control themselves and/or are complete morons. Not to mention that even doing that is completely harmless, it will not break the game.

 

And wait, whats this?

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Helm

[Helm]

However it has quickly gone out of hands, largely thanks to non-listeners like you (Helm) and UpgrayeDD (though I think he might not have done it on purpose). That is very sad.

the only reason this has got out of hand is because you probably hate combat.

 

We have mentioned about 100 times why "quest xp only" is terrible in tactical combat RPG, but all it does is fall on deaf ears. Not to mention that you guys keep saying "the IE games were great and had great gameplay" then you say "the gameplay in teh IE games was crap". What a bunch of illogical nonsense.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Helm

[JFSOCC]

- Misaligned incentives, such as combat XP (incentives for pointless murder rampages; Jaheira the druid killing wild animals for XP instead of rescuing them etc.)

Quest only xp prevents me from killing the poor animal, even if I just want to kill it for "fun" or it's pelt (loot)? Wow, that makes sense. Really, it does (not).

What?

 

As to your edit;

What prevents you? Nothing.

It's that you're not REWARDED for it.

A very important destinction...

What if I'm a poor bastard in PE and really need cash? The "quest xp only" system will prevent me from going on a murdering spree for loot.... how?

Oh right, I almost forgot. There will be so much loot in PE that you don't need to kill anything, you will just avoid all combat. The loot system is implemented in a way so that the pacifist players are not at a disadvantage and will still get loot. So not only the "quest xp only" system will prevent me from killing those poor evil orcs, the loot system will too. How funny is that. Killing in PE will be "double pointless". lol

 

Not to mention that you could skip whole areas in Baldur's Gate, because you didn't need to do every side quest and kill every monster, either for loot or xp. If you didn't know that, then you are a moron.

 

But some people like to visit every area anyway so that they can find that super rare loot. Sadly, you must also kill to do this and will also collect more xp for this. How sad. But at least you can avoid the combat in PE now! lol

I don't like your tone. Be nice.

[Jobby]

I very much doubt any backers of P.E. hate combat as you say Helm, i can see where your coming from regarding combat xp, but really does it make a big difference? As long as the games balanced everything's good, besides it actually allows for certain combat scenarios without creating grind-fest leveling areas, for example the respawning "hell gate" thingymajigger in Arcanum, as far as i can see it will allow for us to have hordes of respawning (in some areas) enemy's without the danger of making the game too easy because you've leveled up too much.

[Fearabbit]

All other points have been answered dozens of times already, so I'll just answer this and then be gone:

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

 

The question isn't what I expected, because MY expectations (so far) have all been fulfilled. YOU are the one whose expectations won't be fulfilled by P:E.

What did I expect? A game exactly like the one we're looking at here. A modern IE game. The game Josh Sawyer wants to make because HE misses IE games as well.

What did you expect? Something completely different, it seems. You are the one who wants to change things in P:E, I want them to stay as they are.

 

Clearly, whatever you expected was too specific. The devs had something else in mind and now you're disappointed.

[Sabotin]

What if they make you acquire XP for sneaking past someone (enter an area where the specific enemy can see you, bot do not be detected by it) with the same (or different) XP you would get for killing it? And when you gain XP from a creature (kill/stealth/other) change a variable on it so that it does not give XP again. It's the simplest thing I can think of.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Sabotin

[PrimeJunta]

@Sabotin, that would end up in the same place as quest XP. The only difference is when you'd get it -- when performing the action rather than when achieving the objective. That's IMO less intuitive and certainly more complicated than just tying the XP to objectives. I'd file it under "unnecessary complication."

[Jobby]

What if they make you acquire XP for sneaking past someone (enter an area where the specific enemy can see you, bot do not be detected by it) with the same (or different) XP you would get for killing it? And when you gain XP from a creature (kill/stealth/other) change a variable on it so that it does not give XP again. It's the simplest thing I can think of.

 

There is to be no combat xp, quest xp only.

[Valorian]

What if they make you acquire XP for sneaking past someone (enter an area where the specific enemy can see you, bot do not be detected by it) with the same (or different) XP you would get for killing it? And when you gain XP from a creature (kill/stealth/other) change a variable on it so that it does not give XP again. It's the simplest thing I can think of.

 

Of course it's simple. And effective.

 

But it's even simpler to just throw nuances of XP out of the window and dump all into quest xp.

[ReyVagabond]

I lend my to Helm from time to time. likes him.

 

 

But they HATE combat. They hate combat SO much they only do it if it gives XP.

 

So combat should give XP so they can do more combat. Which they hate.

 

 

: Hence people who like their jobs refuse to get paid for it and instead get moneyz by doing side quests.

 

My really needs some rest away from dejenereshoun .

 

Because Playing a game is like a job to you that you dont like.

Not something to pass some free time and have a good time.

 

If you tell me, something like: People want to get payed to go to a Party, ill say thats one of a lousy party.

People usualy Never Refuse Money, because you can buy stuff with it, like Shelter and food. stuff you need to live in sociedad mi amigo.

 

So is it combat so awefull for you thats is a job to you, Why do you keep playing games, go and keep working its beter for you in the long run.

[Valorian]

I lend my to Helm from time to time. likes him.

 

 

But they HATE combat. They hate combat SO much they only do it if it gives XP.

 

So combat should give XP so they can do more combat. Which they hate.

 

 

: Hence people who like their jobs refuse to get paid for it and instead get moneyz by doing side quests.

 

My really needs some rest away from dejenereshoun .

 

Because Playing a game is like a job to you that you dont like.

 

Incorrect. Playing a game is like doing a job I like.

 

The rest of your post falls down like a house of cards, as the consequence of your fallacious premise.

[Hassat Hunter]

"We consider tactical combat to be a core component of the game."

If (tactical) combat wasn't marketed as being a core component of the game, then I guess I'd be fine with no combat XP.

 

"We consider picking up flowers a core component of the game."

Then I'd be fine with getting experience for picking flowers up.

Talking, lots of talking, is also a core component of the game.

 

Do you get XP for talking to people?

Answer; no.

 

Are you no longer talking to any of the NPC's in the gameworld? I guess not.

 

So, why is there this problem with combat?

[Amentep]

And wait, whats this?

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

 

An Isometric camera, party based fantasy game with a strong central narrative.

 

Beyond that the road was open as far as I could see. YMMV or course.

[Ieo]

And wait, whats this?

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

 

An Isometric camera, party based fantasy game with a strong central narrative.

 

Beyond that the road was open as far as I could see. YMMV or course.

 

And deep companion interaction and reactive world content!

[Valorian]

"We consider tactical combat to be a core component of the game."

If (tactical) combat wasn't marketed as being a core component of the game, then I guess I'd be fine with no combat XP.

 

"We consider picking up flowers a core component of the game."

Then I'd be fine with getting experience for picking flowers up.

Talking, lots of talking, is also a core component of the game.

 

Do you get XP for talking to people?

Answer; no.

 

Are you no longer talking to any of the NPC's in the gameworld? I guess not.

 

So, why is there this problem with combat?

 

Yes, you do. In fact, most quests involve lots and lots of talking.

 

Should you get xp for exchanging a few meaningless words with a peasant or passerby? Surely not, like you'd get no xp for killing them or sneaking around them.

[Amentep]

And wait, whats this?

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

 

An Isometric camera, party based fantasy game with a strong central narrative.

 

Beyond that the road was open as far as I could see. YMMV or course.

 

And deep companion interaction and reactive world content!

 

At the time that it was pitched, I wasn't sure that it'd be more IWD or PST in terms of companion interaction, so for me that wasn't really an issue (since I liked both games).

[Helm]

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

A modern IE game. The game Josh Sawyer wants to make because HE misses IE games as well.

Oh, ok. So when they asked me if I missed classic cRPGs, they really meant "modern dumbed down cRPGs", because classic is synonmous with modern.

 

Well, at least they are updating the graphics.

[ReyVagabond]

So a job you like, dunno whats that. For me thats an oximoron. lol

 

Its those thigs like a dream job, where people could do it even if they dont get payed or get payed realy porly, like those movies where the main character gets that intership to that big company he loves and could do it for free because he loves beeing there.

 

But back you the job you like thing. You need to be payed for that job you like to do because: if you dont get payed to do you would not do it? you would do something else? like another job you dont like, but you get payed, or a diferent carrear? or you would do it anyway because you like it?

 

This are all important Questions.

[Ieo]

And wait, whats this?

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

 

An Isometric camera, party based fantasy game with a strong central narrative.

 

Beyond that the road was open as far as I could see. YMMV or course.

 

And deep companion interaction and reactive world content!

 

At the time that it was pitched, I wasn't sure that it'd be more IWD or PST in terms of companion interaction, so for me that wasn't really an issue (since I liked both games).

 

Well, I'm thinking of--

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

 

The other part (reactivity) I admittedly must have assumed because Chris Avellone is involved and two thirds of the game pitch contained that sort of thing. Not to mention the rest of Obsidian's games apparently had a fair bit of reactivity.

[Helm]

And wait, whats this?

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

 

An Isometric camera, party based fantasy game with a strong central narrative.

 

Beyond that the road was open as far as I could see. YMMV or course.

How could I not see that the game was going to be fundamentally different and dumbed down.

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

Ohh, thats why.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Helm

[Valorian]

.

 

No.

You have a nice avatar though, because Ryu is exceptionally sexy. Let's leave it at that.

[Amentep]

And wait, whats this?

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we! Introducing Obsidian's PROJECT ETERNITY.

Please, tell me what you were expecting when you read that. That would be interesting.

 

An Isometric camera, party based fantasy game with a strong central narrative.

 

Beyond that the road was open as far as I could see. YMMV or course.

How could I not see that the game was going to be fundamentally different and dumbed down.

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

Ohh, thats why.

 

Thing is your fundamentally different isn't mine. Even in that sentence I don't see anything that so far cannot be achieved by what we know of quest xp.

 

I knew this wasn't going to be a D&D game, so there's no real reason to keep D&D like rules. While I understand your fear that combat is going to be meaningless, I have - as of yet - to see anything that makes me think that will actually be the case.

[Ieo]

Thing is your fundamentally different isn't mine. Even in that sentence I don't see anything that so far cannot be achieved by what we know of quest xp.

 

I knew this wasn't going to be a D&D game, so there's no real reason to keep D&D like rules. While I understand your fear that combat is going to be meaningless, I have - as of yet - to see anything that makes me think that will actually be the case.

 

Also, that anyone would think Josh Sawyer of all people, whose biggest investment in the PE blurb is IWD (compared to Avellone's PS:T), would somehow be "anti-combat" is complete and utter rubbish. Irrational, hysterical, whiny.

 

I mean, really.