Design Challenge: "New Game+" or "True Route"

[Razsius]

I should probably preface this post with the fact that the Baldur's Gate series is probably one of my favorite games of all time. They had linear story as well as main villains that were for the most part integrated into the larger BG picture since day 1. Sarevok and Irenicus especially got under my skin. By the time the endgame rolled around, I was out for some sweet, sweet vengeance. But in a sense it was kind of funny. No matter how prepared they thought they were the minute you rolled into the picture it was all over. What if that *wasn't* the case? What if the game world was built so well and the villains so competent that it required more then one perspective to see the entire picture? What if you got to the Big Bad and his still unfathomable plan (not necessarily of world conquest) was *not* stopped by you the player? What if as you and your party were slowly turning to stone you wished you could've had just a little more time? What if... there was an "Eternity After" option?

 

The problem nowadays is that my favorite stories tend to have multiple tiers. There's one in particular that makes you *think* you understand where things are going only to later be egotistically curb stomped into oblivion by the realization that you fundamentally *don't* understand any of the characters at all. To be honest I get a tad tired of being able to expose every single conspiracy or to walk into any throne room of any king I like and strike up a conversation about the weather and what plagues his realm. Chatting up Aran Linvail of the Shadow Thieves like he's any other thief I can most definitely do without. So why *do* you always end up winning and why is every secret of the game universe ever always revealed to you? A "mature game" would dictate that neither of the above two should always happen and Project Eternity with one of it's main focuses being about souls is a perfect CRPG for a kind of "New Game+" option.

 

You see when Obsidian revealed the first bits of the "lore" of the PE world I almost immediately felt that the supernatural event you get to view coincided somewhat with a form of soul possession. The "one man's life" and "the Watcher" reference sounded almost like you as the PC were given responsibility that wasn't chosen but rather was forced upon you. Being possessed by a kind of elder soul seemed somewhat plausible in the PE universe or what very little I know of it. Naturally, the possibility of this opened quite a world in the PE scheme of soul reincarnation. Thus, we have our first ever potential "New Game+" option in a CRPG. A different perspective with the same level of experience, memories and knowledge that belong to the soul. A new game of the same world with many new options dialogue, story and companion/character growth. A "second chance" to stop things (or push them forward) in a way that smells of a great book or a world built with the complexity of something Tolkienesque.

 

So what do you guys think?

 

Eternity?

 

or....

 

Eternity After?

[rjshae]

Today's solutions become tomorrow's problems...

[nocoolnamejim]

The first thing that came to my mind as I read through this post was the game Persona 4.

 

Without getting into the area of spoilers, it's one of my favorite JRPGs of all time. Strong characters, fascinating and creative story, and multiple endings where you have one "optimum" ending and a couple of other lesser ones.

 

Ironically, it's a game that has BOTH of the things you describe. It has a "New Game+" mode where you keep all of your stuff and go through the story again, but it does have the sort of layered ending structure that you're talking about as well.

[moridin84]

The new game+ normally does not change the story, you just restart the story with all your gear and levels. Similar to the Diablo games and their Normal -> Nightmare -> Hell progression.

 

I don't think this fits very well with most CRPGs because of how successive playthroughs are normally done with different characters. It works with Diablo and JRPGs because your characters "character" is not normally affected by you. Cloud in Final Fantasy VII is exactly the same character no matter how many times you play the game whereas each playthrough of Baldurs Gate or whatever can be done with as different "character"

Edited January 11, 2013 by moridin84

[nocoolnamejim]

The new game+ normally does not change the story, you just restart the story with all your gear and levels. Similar to the Diablo games and their Normal -> Nightmare -> Hell progression.

 

I don't think this fits very well with most CRPGs because of how successive playthroughs are normally done with different characters. It works with Diablo and JRPGs because your characters "character" is not normally affected by you. For example, Cloud in Final Fantasy VII is exactly the same character no matter how many times you play the game.

 

In general, I agree with the basic point that greater story branching = better.

 

New Game+ isn't a BAD feature. It's fun to be able to just plow through the bad guys when all you want is to experience the story a second time.

 

But experiencing additional ways the story can end is a superior feature in my mind.

 

I do understand how branching story arcs are a greater coding challenge though.

[moridin84]

Branching story arcs? Well if they want to do that they want do it without new game+ anyway, that's how CRPGs roll.

[nocoolnamejim]

They could probably do it either way without much difference in the level of coding effort.

 

Don't think that it takes that much coding time to put something in place that allows you to start with everything you had when you beat the game the first time. (Though I'm no expert.)

 

In other words, the extra coding time is probably far more significant for additional story arcs than it is for a New Game+ mode.

[Tychoxi]

I dislike this whole New Game+ thingamajingy, most of the time it unlocks things that should have been there from the begining. I want the entire game to be there in my first playthrough, otherwise I'll feel cheated (an easter egg or something like that unlocked, like, in the third playthrough I have no problem with).

 

Now regarding what you are saying I was kinda thinking that it's what we'll get! This is a game I'm hoping where your choices will open/close paths/quests/characters/whatever and thus you won't ever be able to do it all in a single playthrough and be a jack of all trades like in modern "RPGs".

 

Having said that, I hope we have an option to import our character so that if I want to replay the game with the same class I can just import my levelled up char from a previous playthrough.

[nocoolnamejim]

I dislike this whole New Game+ thingamajingy, most of the time it unlocks things that should have been there from the begining. I want the entire game to be there in my first playthrough, otherwise I'll feel cheated (an easter egg or something like that unlocked, like, in the third playthrough I have no problem with).

 

Now regarding what you are saying I was kinda thinking that it's what we'll get! This is a game I'm hoping where your choices will open/close paths/quests/characters/whatever and thus you won't ever be able to do it all in a single playthrough and be a jack of all trades like in modern "RPGs".

 

Having said that, I hope we have an option to import our character so that if I want to replay the game with the same class I can just import my levelled up char from a previous playthrough.

 

I ABSOLUTELY don't think you should have to play a game through twice to get access to all the branching/story arcs.

 

When I think New Game+, I think simply being able to play through the game a second time starting from a much more powerful state. Something like Veteran mode from Alpha Protocol.

[moridin84]

I dislike this whole New Game+ thingamajingy, most of the time it unlocks things that should have been there from the begining. I want the entire game to be there in my first playthrough, otherwise I'll feel cheated (an easter egg or something like that unlocked, like, in the third playthrough I have no problem with).

 

Now regarding what you are saying I was kinda thinking that it's what we'll get! This is a game I'm hoping where your choices will open/close paths/quests/characters/whatever and thus you won't ever be able to do it all in a single playthrough and be a jack of all trades like in modern "RPGs".

 

Having said that, I hope we have an option to import our character so that if I want to replay the game with the same class I can just import my levelled up char from a previous playthrough.

 

I ABSOLUTELY don't think you should have to play a game through twice to get access to all the branching/story arcs.

 

When I think New Game+, I think simply being able to play through the game a second time starting from a much more powerful state. Something like Veteran mode from Alpha Protocol.

It's a bit weird though right? Starting the game from level 20 (or whatever is max) instead of level 1 with the rest of the game being exactly the same. If you aren't going to do anything else then it's a bit pointless.

 

"Veteran" in Alpha Protocol is different to new game+. You can choose a different "character" which has extra points (like starting from level 3 instead of 1) and a few different dialogue options at the start of the game. It's more like a (optional) bonus which makes later playthroughs easier.

[Razsius]

Mmm perhaps "New Game+" isn't exactly the right phrase i'm looking for which is probably why I came up with "Eternity After". I don't want this thread to get huge before I somewhat clarify what the general idea of what I was thinking.

 

The "Eternity After" that I was looking for was more of a story within the story mode where basically if you replayed it the game would in a sense be a completely different game. As a somewhat old example take The Witcher game. There are actually two concurrent stories going as you are playing Geralt but it really isn't until after you've beaten the game that you truly knew who Alvin was. All that stuff was happening behind the scenes without you the player or Geralt the player character even realizing it. That was probably the best part of the entire game right there. Now why would a world that's likely going to be rather large compared to the Witcherverse not have these concurrent events (ie stuff outside your perspective)?

 

An "Eternity After" example would be more like the second half of the football game though in reality your soul has say fled the body of the one you originally played as and then inhabits a different body. You'd have the same experiences (level), memories (build), knowledge (spells/skills/etc) and a seer's vision (you know how the story goes... or you think you do). The "restart" of the game might take place from a completely different view of the supernatural event (this doesn't preclude you from remaking your character and how they look btw) or the "restart" might be a narrated version of a set of memories that the elder soul has giving you a piece of what's *really* happening. When you get to a town that had a massive bandit problem that was already being taken care of by a different adventuring party... strangely they aren't taking care of it this time (perhaps that was *you* the player character doing it before). When you find Edair the second time he's in a completely different location that seems to be totally out of character for him... or is it? When you hit the city that has a secret society kept very hidden from prying eyes you dispel the illusion on the "door" to their inner sanctum because you now have that knowledge from playing through the first time. The list goes on and on and on. They could do a *ton* of stuff with this.

 

That story I referenced by the way was amazing before they started revealing a ton about the characters and the interplay between them it's just when the backstory and the past started to be explained it took the story to a completely different level. I figure the first time through the game you'd get a variable ending depending on what you did and how you solved what but without your character having prior knowledge of certain events/characters/etc. you wouldn't be able to do everything (though you, the player, might not even notice this). "Eternity After" would simply vastly expand the game itself. Hearing second hand how that secret society operates and what they do might be *completely* different then if you joined them and learned first hand. It's just we as players tend to be very used to the God's Eye View of sorts where we know every known conspiracy, the entire history of the game world, every quest is given to us on a silver platter because hey we're "the chosen one" and kings, guild leaders, spymasters all love us like their long lost friend because the game would be booooring otherwise. But if The Witcher can do it linearly why can't PE do it on a much, much grander scale?

 

Does any of that make sense to anyone?

Edited January 12, 2013 by Razsius

[Failion]

I never thought the split storyline idea was a stellar idea in the witcher series. Untimely I didn't give a **** because regardless what path I take it is the same end goal. All you dudes that are obsessed with new game+ should just go play chrono cross. It it the only game I played where new game+ was worthwhile. Not just another end game dungeon and same game over again.

[Razsius]

I never thought the split storyline idea was a stellar idea in the witcher series. Untimely I didn't give a **** because regardless what path I take it is the same end goal. All you dudes that are obsessed with new game+ should just go play chrono cross. It it the only game I played where new game+ was worthwhile. Not just another end game dungeon and same game over again.

 

All this *might* be true except you're still thinking of it like JRPG one route = one goal thing. This is going to be a CRPG of that i am most sure. Take Fallout for example (you've played it I hope). Now add in this kind of "New Game+" however, in this case, i'm going to rename the mode "Fallout After." Your character starts out in The Hub he *doesn't* start out in Vault 13 and he sure as hell doesn't give a damn about a stinking water chip. There's no time limit because you don't care about water chips. Your starting equipment is completely different because you're Mr. X in The Hub not a vault dweller. The Master's super mutant army of death killed the vault dweller which was you except for whatever reason you can start as Mr. X which is still you (both the player and the player character). You're in a completely different starting location. Vic and Dogmeat may or may not rejoin your party because you're a completely different person. People all over the place give you completely different dialogue options because again you're "someone else". You know exactly where the super mutant army is and how many days till they overrun the ghouls and eventually the rest of the wasteland. Your stats have carried over but your gear has not. The Brotherhood of Steel didn't let you in on your first play through because they didn't want to let some wasteland mongrel into their fold however as Mr. X you might just be able to cobble together a group that can take a stand against those arrogant bastards and raid their tech. Same map, same characters, same "play", completely different perspective and hence completely different game.

 

Would that be a worthwhile mode or am I missing something here?

[Failion]

I never thought the split storyline idea was a stellar idea in the witcher series. Untimely I didn't give a **** because regardless what path I take it is the same end goal. All you dudes that are obsessed with new game+ should just go play chrono cross. It it the only game I played where new game+ was worthwhile. Not just another end game dungeon and same game over again.

 

All this *might* be true except you're still thinking of it like JRPG one route = one goal thing. This is going to be a CRPG of that i am most sure. Take Fallout for example (you've played it I hope). Now add in this kind of "New Game+" however, in this case, i'm going to rename the mode "Fallout After." Your character starts out in The Hub he *doesn't* start out in Vault 13 and he sure as hell doesn't give a damn about a stinking water chip. There's no time limit because you don't care about water chips. Your starting equipment is completely different because you're Mr. X in The Hub not a vault dweller. The Master's super mutant army of death killed the vault dweller which was you except for whatever reason you can start as Mr. X which is still you (both the player and the player character). You're in a completely different starting location. Vic and Dogmeat may or may not rejoin your party because you're a completely different person. People all over the place give you completely different dialogue options because again you're "someone else". You know exactly where the super mutant army is and how many days till they overrun the ghouls and eventually the rest of the wasteland. Your stats have carried over but your gear has not. The Brotherhood of Steel didn't let you in on your first play through because they didn't want to let some wasteland mongrel into their fold however as Mr. X you might just be able to cobble together a group that can take a stand against those arrogant bastards and raid their tech. Same map, same characters, same "play", completely different perspective and hence completely different game.

 

Would that be a worthwhile mode or am I missing something here?

 

Ya but why not just make a a sequel with new maps, character, and similar gameplay lol. chrono cross new game+ least fit with the games story.

[Razsius]

Ya but why not just make a a sequel with new maps, character, and similar gameplay lol. chrono cross new game+ least fit with the games story.

 

It was an example. Fallout's not really built for something like this whereas the whole soul thing going on in the PE universe makes it seem like a much more viable candidate. It's basically creating more bang for buck in your game (and I don't know about you but i love getting 100+ hours out of my games). As for making a sequel that's completely missing the point all the art assets they have to create, new characters they have to write, new combat mechanics, completely different area of the universe they now have to create lore for, etc. you'd be waiting another couple years for that sequel. There's comparatively less work for doing something that's akin to finishing their story (under the assumption you've got unfinished business with the Big Bad.. who hell may not even be the Big Bad). You really could run amok with the idea.

[Hassat Hunter]

I don't see the point of NG+.

Instead of playing with the exact same char, why not a different class? Skills?

That would be much more fun *I think*

 

Also, it takes developer time making balancing for such a second run while they should rather spend it on the main game IMO.

[Brother Pain]

If the villain (to simplify) isn't quite beaten yet, I'd rather finish the plot in an expansion or sequel than having to play through the game again and again.

[Christliar]

Dragon Age: Origins did something interesting with new playthroughs - after getting a certain achievement you unlocked powerful items that you get in your inventory at level 1 at each new start. Although starting at a higher level isn't bad I'm neutral towards it.

[Cryticus]

Ohh , oh and then you will get Eternity after + where you get to fight gigiant demonic babies , and then Eternity after ++ where you get transported to modern day Tokio and fight gigant abomination in a rythm game .

Joking asaid I belive that ultimatle such a big expanded new game + is ultimatly pointless and I belive it will only cripple main plot.

[Kaldurenik]

In most cases i want everything "unlocked" the first time i play it. If i then want to play it again it should not be for a "new game+"  If its a new story then you might as well have it as a expansion and focus on making the core game as good as possible.

[UpgrayeDD]

I'm not sure about new game plus but I would like the idea of something like "sawyers arena fun time"  Where he handmakes the most ridiculous, seemingly unbeatable scenarios imaginable.  The kind of stuff where he might have to step in an say "heres how I did it".

[Razsius]

Ohh , oh and then you will get Eternity after + where you get to fight gigiant demonic babies , and then Eternity after ++ where you get transported to modern day Tokio and fight gigant abomination in a rythm game .

Joking asaid I belive that ultimatle such a big expanded new game + is ultimatly pointless and I belive it will only cripple main plot.

It seems my word choice has really kind of dug me a very deep hole I get to occupy.  You see when I said "New Game+" I perhaps didn't really mean it as such.  A "True Route", "After Story" or even some wacky option like "True Game+" would've been a much better word choice.  I settled on "Eternity After" in an effort to get everyone's thought processes along the same railroad but i'm not even sure i'm on the same train to be honest.

 

I'll try again.  There's basically no way you could cripple the main plot of PE because it would be a continuation of the main plot.  It would not be your standard fair "replay the same game with slightly different options and some unlocks" New Game+ mode.  If you played PE all the way through "beat" the game then hit the now unlocked "Eternity After" you might replay as a nobody within the organization that you were trying to stop or crush (so you could become evil warlord or w/e).  The perspective would be completely different.  You might start on the other end of the world.  Edair might freaking hate your guts and not join your party this time around.  Enemies would be balanced around the level you restarted the game at (you would not be fighting lvl 1 enemies if you ended the game at 25).  The list goes on.  You'd learn a hell of a lot more because the opposition might know things your original PC could never know.  A city that has a blockade around it might be impossible for you to get into without large bad guy connections.  Players are *very* used to being able to go anywhere yet we as regular everyday humans *cannot* go everywhere in the real world.  Even if you have some connections you *still* can't go everywhere.  However, what limits you might not limit a different individual with a different background.

 

It would greatly expand the story and present a fair amount of believability into the game world.

 

 

In most cases i want everything "unlocked" the first time i play it. If i then want to play it again it should not be for a "new game+"  If its a new story then you might as well have it as a expansion and focus on making the core game as good as possible.

 

When I think expansion, I think of either a completely new area and story and thus all the assets that need to be built for it or just some expansion areas that really don't tie into the world much.  The first suggests an entirely new location(s).  The second is more a new area or smattering of new areas with little tie in to what you were originally doing.  My idea is more along the lines of expanded content within the same areas (uses the same art assets) with an occasional new area, "new" enemies and potentially different bosses.

 

Edit: In a sense to experience the full game or core game you'd have to play all the way through "Eternity After".  If the developers were really, really good at what they do things wouldn't make sense until you did play through everything but that's a little exclusive to my own tastes really.

 

Boy it sure is hard to explain stories with multiple tiers.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Razsius

[Luridis]

I would love to see something like this... A main quest you can fail and spend the rest of the game trying to compensate for that. I'd also like to be around to see the outcome of completing the main quest. To give an example:

 

Main Quest -> Failed -> Rest of game trying to pick up the pieces, climb out of hell and do what you can to patch up the mess.

Main Quest -> Success -> Rest of game dealing with the consequences of your success. You've made enemies, you've created power vacuums, etc.

 

JMS did a good job in the Babylon 5 story of showing how victory has consequences. Lord of the Rings just barely touched on that theme, Frodo and all that. But yes, you rarely see that sort of thing. People like "happily ever after" and probably don't know how to react when ever after never comes.

 

 

[Razsius]

I would love to see something like this... A main quest you can fail and spend the rest of the game trying to compensate for that. I'd also like to be around to see the outcome of completing the main quest. To give an example:

 

Main Quest -> Failed -> Rest of game trying to pick up the pieces, climb out of hell and do what you can to patch up the mess.

Main Quest -> Success -> Rest of game dealing with the consequences of your success. You've made enemies, you've created power vacuums, etc.

 

JMS did a good job in the Babylon 5 story of showing how victory has consequences. Lord of the Rings just barely touched on that theme, Frodo and all that. But yes, you rarely see that sort of thing. People like "happily ever after" and probably don't know how to react when ever after never comes.

Wow, here's a great idea as well.  Think we're onto something here.  Yes, I most definitely meant "Eternity After" in this sort of way not in a "I'm beating up lvl 1s as a lvl 50 playing the exact same game storyline i've already beaten" sort of way.

[Kaldurenik]

Hmm well im not sure. I think i understand what you mean right now but i think i would rather have them focus on the main story making it have more cause and effect and overall higher quality.

 

If they make it in a good way then the story will explain itself by lore, npc information and simply just looking at the world.