Water Effects and Flooded Dungeons

[TRX850]

Any thoughts on allowing players to ford streams/rivers or underground areas that are knee/waist/chest deep in water?

 

Apart from it being visually interesting and possibly scary at times, it could allow for a variety of aquatic encounters to take place.

 

For example, if the party has no choice but to cross a waist deep stream on foot, they might become targets for electric eels, snakes, and "bitey" fish like piranhas.

 

Or in subterranean lakes, aboleths, aquatic undead, frog-men, and all manner of amphibious creatures.

 

Obviously, the engine would need to handle the visual complexity of water and water-combat, but it could open up additional adventuring possibilities previously unavailable in IE games.

 

Do we need this in P:E ?

[Racker]

I think a 'fooded cave' level would be really cool. Especially if there were traps you could detect, where if you trip them they blow out a wall and drown you in a torrent of water.

 

Gonna have to make a save vs trench-foot too, hah.

[rjshae]

I'm all for adding in terrain effects on movement and concealment. Flooded areas are nice for a little paranoia effect; you never quite know what's going to leap up and bite you.

[AGX-17]

Why would it be scary? This isn't Oregon Trail, is it?

 

Also, note, electric eels are not a threat to human life. And if it was going to be some amazon swamp-jungle area there wouldn't be anything remotely interesting or appealing or complex about the water visuals, it would just be solid green/brown murk. Besides, what's to stop a wizard from freezing the surface or raising a bridge of stone across if it's so deadly to ford a stream? Not like a piranha can bite through steel, anyway.

Edited January 5, 2013 by AGX-17

[Kaz]

Wading through waist deep murky water.. sounds amazing.

[TRX850]

Why would it be scary? This isn't Oregon Trail, is it?

 

Also, note, electric eels are not a threat to human life.

 

It was an example only. I'm sure the devs can research real world habitats and ecology as a guide for creature placement. And maybe invent their own fantasy versions of real world creatures.

 

And if it was going to be some amazon swamp-jungle area there wouldn't be anything remotely interesting or appealing or complex about the water visuals, it would just be solid green/brown murk.

 

Interesting in that it becomes a new terrain type to navigate through. And if you can't see the bottom, your imagination might lead you to worry about what lurks below. Maybe there are penalties for trap detection in water, penalties to movement, and combat. Sometimes, what you can't see is scariest.

 

Besides, what's to stop a wizard from freezing the surface or raising a bridge of stone across if it's so deadly to ford a stream? Not like a piranha can bite through steel, anyway.

 

Well yes, in a tabletop game where your DM might allow environmental changes like that. Traditional IE spells don't really allow changes to the environment, but maybe now is the time to suggest it? I like the idea of elemental spells in particular being used to temporarily manipulate the environment. Cast "Wall of Ice" in a narrow chasm to prevent enemies reaching you. And the bridge example you gave. Why not suggest a list of spells that create useful interactive structures, natural or "man-made" ?

Edited January 5, 2013 by TRX850

[PrimeJunta]

Cool idea, if the engine allows it without too much trouble.

 

Also, carp.

[TRX850]

You do realize guys that any water or other objects will be 99% a painted background and not real objects you could interact with, right?

 

Yes, but it's possible to create the "illusion" of splashing through water, with surface ripples and particle effects.

 

The water itself would most likely be a flat plane or box with some texturing applied to simulate depth, murkiness, and possibly animated to portray a direction of flow.

 

Interactivity doesn't mean a dynamic commodity like weapons or items, Just something that characters can walk/wade through as if it were a reactive terrain type.

 

I think it boils down to how much can be simulated by illusion.

[AGX-17]

It was an example only. I'm sure the devs can research real world habitats and ecology as a guide for creature placement. And maybe invent their own fantasy versions of real world creatures.

 

If they were inclined to implement this idea. Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past already had your creeping underwater enemies, it wasn't scary, it was just an issue of timing.

 

Interesting in that it becomes a new terrain type to navigate through. And if you can't see the bottom, your imagination might lead you to worry about what lurks below. Maybe there are penalties for trap detection in water, penalties to movement, and combat. Sometimes, what you can't see is scariest.

 

How is brown swamp muck slowing you down new and interesting? It's just one variant of terrain effects, something which has been discussed in other threads. It's been done in plenty of games already, you're not onto some cutting edge game design revolution here. It's standard practice for pretty much any swamp/marsh area in video games. I can't think of a single strategy game or TRPG that didn't include terrain effects, nor any that didn't include water/swamp/marsh terrains with penalties to most units standing in them.

 

How is wading through brown swamp muck while getting chewed by mega-piranhas different from wading through radioactive muck in Fallout and taking damage over time or wading through lava and taking damage over time or wading through a poisonous swamp and taking damage over time?

 

Well yes, in a tabletop game where your DM might allow environmental changes like that. Traditional IE spells don't really allow changes to the environment, but maybe now is the time to suggest it? I like the idea of elemental spells in particular being used to temporarily manipulate the environment. Cast "Wall of Ice" in a narrow chasm to prevent enemies reaching you. And the bridge example you gave. Why not suggest a list of spells that create useful interactive structures, natural or "man-made" ?

 

Yet P:E isn't a traditional IE game. What you're on about is an element of a game design concept that has existed for decades (terrain modifiers as well as terrain modification.) And terrain modification, too. Use your ice rod to freeze the body of water blocking your path, throw water on the lava to create a temporary rock bridge, knock down the tree to bridge the chasm, etc. etc. I did all that in the 16 and 32 bit console eras. Just because it hasn't been done in an IE or D&D cRPG doesn't mean it hasn't been done before.

 

I'm all for terrain effects. I'm just saying that you're getting too puffed up over one specific aspect of a broader, well-established game design concept.

Edited January 5, 2013 by AGX-17

[rjshae]

Why would it be scary? This isn't Oregon Trail, is it?

What, you've never gone wading waist deep in swamp water that is home to poisonous snakes, giant boas, and crocodiles? No, that's not scary at all.

[TRX850]

If they were inclined to implement this idea. Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past already had your creeping underwater enemies, it wasn't scary, it was just an issue of timing.

 

How is brown swamp muck slowing you down new and interesting? It's just one variant of terrain effects, something which has been discussed in other threads. It's been done in plenty of games already, you're not onto some cutting edge game design revolution here. It's standard practice for pretty much any swamp/marsh area in video games. I can't think of a single strategy game or TRPG that didn't include terrain effects, nor any that didn't include water/swamp/marsh terrains with penalties to most units standing in them.

 

How is wading through brown swamp muck while getting chewed by mega-piranhas different from wading through radioactive muck in Fallout and taking damage over time or wading through lava and taking damage over time or wading through a poisonous swamp and taking damage over time?

 

Yet P:E isn't a traditional IE game. What you're on about is an element of a game design concept that has existed for decades (terrain modifiers as well as terrain modification.) And terrain modification, too. Use your ice rod to freeze the body of water blocking your path, throw water on the lava to create a temporary rock bridge, knock down the tree to bridge the chasm, etc. etc. I did all that in the 16 and 32 bit console eras. Just because it hasn't been done in an IE or D&D cRPG doesn't mean it hasn't been done before.

 

I'm all for terrain effects. I'm just saying that you're getting too puffed up over one specific aspect of a broader, well-established game design concept.

 

I'm not suggesting water is new to the game world. Of course it's not.

 

P:E has been pitched as a pre-rendered isometric RPG, as an evolution of the Infinity Engine games. <-- these are my words, not Obsidian's.

 

I'm asking the financiers of this caper if they would like to see their party facing the option of wading through murky water, which is something you don't normally see in a pre-rendered isometric RPG of this heritage.

 

I've not played Fallout, so I can't comment on that.

 

None of us know what P:E will become eventually. But during pre-production is the time to offer up ideas, big, small, outlandish, unpopular, humourous, tragic, and every degree in between.

 

I personally like the idea of a party of "D&D" adventurers slowly wading through waist deep floodwater in a dungeon or underground lake, not knowing what might strike from below. I mean, come on, use your imagination. Having your own story to tell is what this is all about.

Edited January 5, 2013 by TRX850

[Adhin]

Flooded levels can be rather atmospheric so I like the idea though I'd imagine knee deep would probably fit the game style a bit more. Could be some interesting monsters to face in extremely watery areas, lizardmen come to mind actually. Could be a fun ambush to see a bunch stand up out of the water as a fight breaks out.

 

Either case, more atmospheric stuff the better, doesn't have to change gameplay one bit to be effective though... hell sometimes that ruins it.

[LadyCrimson]

Oh, I love flooded dungeon levels/rooms...for some reason I like the atmosphere it tends to bring, along with the splashing sounds. So I'd be all for some of that in P.E., if it was feasible to do.

[JOG]

Just remember the scale and perspective, in a first or third person game waist high water might be atmospheric, but in an iso game it simply means that the lower bodies of the sprites will be blurry or not visible at all, and there would be splashes instead of footprints. So it would be mainly a gameplay option and not an atmospheric addition. Since water usually serves as barrier in RPGs just like heel-high fences, the ability to swim / wade trough water and climbing fences has a considerable impact on level design.

 

It won't be really new either, Jagged Alliance already featured wading trough water as well as climbing fences and buildings, but there it served a purpose, tactical options with pros and cons in a tactical combat game. In RPGs - especially the kind Obsidian makes - you usually have a lot of scripted events, the ability to overcome obstacles introduces a whole bunch of opportunities for bugs and oversights, where events fire out of sequence or not at all.

Edited January 5, 2013 by JOG

[TRX850]

Since water usually serves as barrier in RPGs just like heel-high fences, the ability to swim / wade trough water and climbing fences has a considerable impact on level design.

 

That's why I'm suggesting it now. To have water considered as a traversable part of the level design, rather than a simple barrier. Unless of course it's too deep and purposely there as a barrier.

 

It won't be really new either, Jagged Alliance already featured wading trough water as well as climbing fences and buildings, but there it served a purpose, tactical options with pros and cons in a tactical combat game. In RPGs - especially the kind Obsidian makes - you usually have a lot of scripted events, the ability to overcome obstacles introduces a whole bunch of opportunities for bugs and oversights, where events fire out of sequence or not at all.

 

I think when I said "new" I was meaning something not previously implemented in IE games (it was almost always a barrier), even though it's been done well in many other game worlds and franchises. Also, new in that if you've been marching overland for days and discover a partially flooded cave or dungeon, it's "new" as in a change of environmental experience.

 

Hopefully bugs and oversights will be ironed out when we get to alpha test this puppy.

[Racker]

You do realize guys that any water or other objects will be 99% a painted background and not real objects you could interact with, right?

 

Why are you so sure about that? P:E will use the Unity engine which is capable of allowing environmental interaction.

[Adhin]

@JOG: I disagree that it's not an atmospheric thing. Also they're using 3D models for characters and some objects/animated things (spell effects will most likely be volumetric effects). The backgrounds are the only thing that's 100% going to be a pre-rendered picture. So, for the most part, no sprites. If they can work in water to a level to have your characters wade through at knee height or something it can add atmosphere to the area. I mean, more then that, they can have your characters physically move the water. You know, ripples, waves, that kinda thing.

 

It pains me to use this as an example but Dark Alliance, with the Baldur's Gate title (should never of used that) is a good example of this perspective with fun water effects. It's one of the few things that game actually did well and when you waded through low water it would ripple out and generally bounce around which was always fun. I have no doubt if they can pull it off, it'll add a ton of feeling to an area.

 

-edit-

Oh as another example, and a bit more apt one I guess. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 both used a repeating sprite for 'water' that was animated. They would draw lines in the map where they wanted the water to show up and you'd get extremely ugly looking, bright water that never really fit. Now imagine that but with actually good water effects from today. Now imagine parts of that are traversable and blur your characters lower leg and cause the water to ripple out and bounce back from the edges.

 

I'm pretty sure they can manage that.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Adhin

[Racker]

Heh, it's funny...I never played Dark Alliance, but I clearly remember all the reviews saying 'The game isn't that great...but the water effects are killer!'

[Adhin]

Heh yeah, it had nice water effects for the time. Great interaction with enemies and the player, was extremely fluid ehh... fluids. Probably find footage of DA1 or 2 on youtube incase anyones curious what I'm talking about.

[JOG]

@JOG: I disagree that it's not an atmospheric thing. Also they're using 3D models for characters and some objects/animated things (spell effects will most likely be volumetric effects).

 

<Sigh> Yes, it's 3D and uses models instead of sprites. Great deal. Look at ToEE and add a decade, this is what we will get. 1 inch party-member figures seen walking trough the dungeon from high above.

 

No matter whether the party-members are pre-rendered by a mainframe or on the fly by your graphic card, I don't see any effect on atmosphere by the simple fact that a shader covers the lower bodies of your party. The atmospheric impact comes from the setting of the dungeon itself, or the fact that you *can* walk trough water as a tactical option, not the graphical presentation of actually doing it.

 

I really would like swimming climbing and wading, as tactical options, heck I *hated* NWN2 for not letting me to simply climb over that wall to Blacklake, but I also realize what this means for level-design and story telling, especially when you want to make a game where you don't just waltz trough the dungeon and click on anything that moves until it gives XP and drops new equipment.

Edited January 6, 2013 by JOG

[TRX850]

@JOG: I disagree that it's not an atmospheric thing. Also they're using 3D models for characters and some objects/animated things (spell effects will most likely be volumetric effects).

 

<Sigh> Yes, it's 3D and uses models instead of sprites. Great deal. Look at ToEE and add a decade, this is what we will get. 1 inch party-member figures seen walking trough the dungeon from high above.

 

No matter whether the party-members are pre-rendered by a mainframe or on the fly by your graphic card, I don't see any effect on atmosphere by the simple fact that a shader covers the lower bodies of your party. The atmospheric impact comes from the setting of the dungeon itself, or the fact that you *can* walk trough water as a tactical option, not the graphical presentation of actually doing it.

 

I really would like swimming climbing and wading, as tactical options, heck I *hated* NWN2 for not letting me to simply climb over that wall to Blacklake, but I also realize what this means for level-design and story telling, especially when you want to make a game where you don't just waltz trough the dungeon and click on anything that moves until it gives XP and drops new equipment.

 

JOG, I hear what you're saying. With the camera zoomed out, we probably won't enjoy the full effect of water navigation.

 

I'm just looking at the sample image from update #36 (http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63020-project-eternity-update-36-off-to-our-elfhomes-but-first/), and by the way, someone tell me please if this pic is a current demo or a screenshot from an older IE game? I don't recognise it. Anyway, it seems to tilt the camera to roughly a 45° angle which still reveals enough of the characters to see the potential effect. It's not as if it's a top-down view.

 

And yes, water on its own isn't that much of a spectacle. The atmosphere does indeed come down to the dungeon setting, as you say. Also sound effects and lighting would help sell the atmospherics.

 

I think we should at least entertain the idea that the devs are more than capable of surprising us with engine technology to render out a water-logged dungeon that doesn't feel like it's the 1990's. Let's give them a chance before we dismiss the idea.

Edited January 6, 2013 by TRX850

[JFSOCC]

sounds cool, so why not

[Nonek]

Always in favour of more diverse and interesting enviroments. What would the water affect, sneaking, movement rates, fire, lightning and ice spells?

[TRX850]

Always in favour of more diverse and interesting enviroments. What would the water affect, sneaking, movement rates, fire, lightning and ice spells?

 

Absolutely. Physical skills and feats would be affected.

 

And possibly more subtle things like Listen and Search.

 

I like it because it's not just a visual element, but something that could influence the player to revise their strategy in water-logged conditions. And create new and interesting ways of overcoming the environment to reach their objective.

 

Maybe if you spend too long in water, you experience problems with core temperature, stamina, and are subject to water-borne disease.

[Tychoxi]

this reminded me about traversing the water-flooded sewers in Stonekeep. You'd then flush it all and come back and it'd feel very different, find new stuff, etc.