Josh Sawyer on Miss and Hit

[Adhin]

I would 'love' if Barbarians had a higher health pool while rage impacts stamina (as they've mentioned it already will sometime) ultimately making them more stamina susceptible to stamina... I'd imagine stamina drains while in rage or when it ends you lose a chunk just like a winded state from DnD barb rages. Also any kind of bonuses related to how low your health is (not stamina) would be awesome. I'd also love to see bonus for fighting more then 1 enemy at a time as another risk/reward counter to the low health stuff. Just make the Barbarian a nasty brutal killing machine... if the odds are stacked against him as much as possible heh.

 

Not sure where your confusion is stemming from on the health/stamina. But pretty sure the 4:1 ratio is only in damage. Meaning 100/100 or 120/100 sp/hp values, im sure we can have chars with more health then stamina, more stamina then hp or equal values... ultimately its just you take 25% of damage recieved (even in decimels) as health damage. So if you take 10 dmg, your health gets hit for 2.5 dmg (keeping track of the .5)

 

Hope the coming up update has information on Barbarians... really hope it does.

[rjshae]

Okay. While I get the monk Wounds mechanic now, I'm still trying to wrap my head around a "physical" explanation. Apparently the absorbed energy is briefly converted into a different form: mechanical energy is turned into Wound energy (chi, I guess), but with a timeout. Is this a soul-based magic ability, with the soul temporarily resonating with the absorbed energy like a struck bell converting a hammer blow into sound? Or is it a purely physical phenomenon powered by adrenaline and some sort of physiological wound closure?

[Lephys]

^ Yeah... I just mentioned it a few times when it came up in several threads, because a lot of people were seemingly assuming that we were always only going to have 4 times our stamina in total health. I kept thinking "Hey, that's maybe not true," because they only said that 1 Health damage would pretty much always result from 4 Stamina damage.

 

To my knowledge, there has been no official statement on the limitations governing Health/Stamina pools, other than damage received. *shrug*

 

Anywho, that could be a contributing factor in a lot of class mechanics. 8P

 

 

 

 Okay. While I get the monk Wounds mechanic now, I'm still trying to wrap my head around a "physical" explanation. Apparently the absorbed energy is briefly converted into a different form: mechanical energy is turned into Wound energy (chi, I guess), but with a timeout. Is this a soul-based magic ability, with the soul temporarily resonating with the absorbed energy like a struck bell converting a hammer blow into sound? Or is it a purely physical phenomenon powered by adrenaline and some sort of physiological wound closure?

 

 

My guess is that it's probably just a soul-based diversion of potentially-wounding energy, because it's a time-sensitive storage/diversion of said force. If you closed off the wound, it would just open back up again when you failed to focus that energy into some useful and it manifested as damage anyway. Or, if you took the wound, and it closed up when you actually expelled that energy in the form of a Monk ability, then you'd still have this strange, bloodless slice on your chest the whole time, which kind of doesn't make sense either.

 

I think it's sort of like a chi-power/soul-based resistance to damage ("I can stop your sword from cutting me") mixed with the idea of sort of conflict cancellation/returning to a harmonious state. It is the Monk's limited ability to essentially "catch" a portion of incoming intentionally harmful force, reshape it, and return it to the sentient who sent it out (or another of the same group) in an almost karma-like fashion. Mayhaps? Perchance?

 

I dunno. It sounds pretty Monky. And it's more of a strategic bonus, rather than just "Your skin LAUGHS at the feeble prick of giant blades on a fortnightly basis!" being passively applied all the time. If you use it correctly, you can probably absorb a lot of incoming damage, but it's a very shallow pool, it sounds like, so you won't just be standing there, absorbing 50% of incoming damage. Not to mention that you ultimately take that damage anyway if you fail to vent it in a useful manner.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Lephys

[rjshae]

^ Yeah, kinda difficult to rationalize it.

[Adhin]

Sawyer has given some examples using health and stamina values though never specified if they where max, but they where always relatively close to each other (like 54 stamina and 48 health) or something random but near-equals.

 

As for the monk thing 'hows it work'. Definitely soul... like everything else. That's there unifying theme for how everything works. The Soul wasn't just mage magic, it was there explanation for anything in relation to mortals that did supernatural or superhuman feats of some kind. Mage throws a fireball? His brand of using his soul to fuel his magic. Muscle man manages to push a boulder weighting multiple tons? Adrenaline wont make you do that but soul power can.

 

I'm kinda explaining it a bit corny like but it's kinda like how in DnD you have divine magic and arcane magic, both explained differently. Each one often explained differently even from world to world and monks having there own personal magic. Well, in this its always the same source but how it manifests, how they use it is the difference in PE. Least that's what I've gotten from it so far from there explanations.

 

-edit-

Oh and to add to what Lephys said, another way to maybe think about it would be well. He mentioned ability to convert said harmful whatever into energy. Doesn't matter if it leaves a wound in the process or if its closed... think of it like a pressure cooker, you get this concept with any kind of energy source in all manner of myths and stories. Store up to much for to long and things tend to go bad, explosions or fissures or what have you.

 

Storing said energy, that isn't naturally your own, could just be a taxing process, would make sense considering the kind of life style said monks go through, extreme physical and mental condition beyond that of a normal swordsman. If that, in PE, is the diverting of physical harm into an energy source they keep welled up which they have to find away to expel before that energy causes them bodily harm - doesn't have to be in the same manner they got hurt.

 

The energy forcing its way out as you lose your grip on it, I'd imagine would suck pretty bad one way or another. So... better channel it into a killer punch or kick or paralyzing palm strike before that happens.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Adhin

[Juneau]

Hi Josh,

 

You'll see me around the forums throwing out ideas, disagreeing with people or telling them how awesome an idea is. Mainly because good conversation leads to good ideas and a good idea may make someone in the office go 'oh wow.... that could work'. In terms of never missing. The idea worries me because I don't want it to spoil my immersion in the game.

 

Saying that, you guys have made good games in the past and I've donated/pre-purchased (how ever you want to look at it) the game for me and my wife. Pretty much what ever you do will have someone hate it and someone love it, so go with what you guys like best.

 

However, on a personal level, when it comes to being immersed in playing the game. Does the idea of never missing regardless of the maths and dice rolls sound right to you? Would you not like to see your massive beast of a warrior swing and miss completely? Or a fireball go wide and explode on the wall behind the intended victim?

[uaciaut]

Wounds are unique to the monk class.  They're a resource used to power their special abilities.  This sounds like pure benefit, so more damage received = better than -- but that's not really the case.  Wounds have to be "spent" within a certain amount of time or they will be applied as damage.  If Wounds are spent, that stack of damage is gone for good.  If Wounds are acquired faster than the monk can spend them, It Is Bad.  If a monk absorbs their maximum amount of Wounds, damage above that amount is applied normally.  So it's not always the best idea to just strip every monk naked and flip off demon lords at point-blank range.

 

This is a ridiculously good idea. One question though - what happens if you have enough wounds to kill you in the next few seconds/round but you manage to finish off your opponents and combat right before wound damage would be applied and you'd die.

Does the wound system automatically reset itself at the end of combat with or without you taking the damage from it?

 

This is going way into details into such things and i'm pretty sure you'll have the whole mechanic perfected by the time the game is out, i'm just curious about it since you started talking about it.

 

Another thing i'd really want to ask about that's somewhat (indirectly) related is how the "aggro" system works. Basically if my stealthed/invisible thief breaks his stealth to backstab a strong opponent do they switch targets and start focusing him instantly? Will he get a bonus to AC or a bigger "hit roll needed to graze/damage" for the first few seconds after he broke stealth? WIll opponents ignore him until he does a certain ammount of damage at which point it would be better for him to re-enter stealth to "lose aggro" (this sounds like the most plausible).

What i'm saying basically is that while evasion tanks don't make much sense, especially since dexterity-focused classes like rogues aren't designed to be front line fighters they have to have some techniques that allow them to survive some opponent focus, similarly to how stoneskin was used by mages in BG2. Right? D:

Edit: This is probably too off topic in retrospect and i'll ask it again if/when the AI-targetting-system is brought up

 

Anyway thank you so much for actually taking time and answering questions on forums and such mister Sawyer, even the annoying ones like mine <3

Edited January 22, 2013 by uaciaut

[Somna]

I wouldn't make the assumption that there is an "aggro" system.

 

Otherwise it would be possible to wall one character off from the mobs and take the rest out with ease.

[J.E. Sawyer]

However, on a personal level, when it comes to being immersed in playing the game. Does the idea of never missing regardless of the maths and dice rolls sound right to you? Would you not like to see your massive beast of a warrior swing and miss completely? Or a fireball go wide and explode on the wall behind the intended victim?

 

I personally don't have a negative reaction to hitting 100% of the time.  Mechanically, the "all-or-nothing" D&D hit/miss system can easily change the outcome of a fight based on a die roll even when the players/DM are performing the most tactically sound action.  Our revised crit/hit/graze/miss system still allows for that possibility, but it is much less likely, especially over a series of rolls.

[rjshae]

 

Wounds are unique to the monk class.  They're a resource used to power their special abilities.  This sounds like pure benefit, so more damage received = better than -- but that's not really the case.  Wounds have to be "spent" within a certain amount of time or they will be applied as damage.  If Wounds are spent, that stack of damage is gone for good.  If Wounds are acquired faster than the monk can spend them, It Is Bad.  If a monk absorbs their maximum amount of Wounds, damage above that amount is applied normally.  So it's not always the best idea to just strip every monk naked and flip off demon lords at point-blank range.

 

This is a ridiculously good idea. One question though - what happens if you have enough wounds to kill you in the next few seconds/round but you manage to finish off your opponents and combat right before wound damage would be applied and you'd die.

Does the wound system automatically reset itself at the end of combat with or without you taking the damage from it?

 

For me it does have the virtue of making the Monk class at least worth trying. But it may also depend on how well the unarmed Monk performs on the attack. Fighters will benefit from the versatility of choosing different tools for different enemies. How will the Monks fare in this regard? Perhaps they will only be optimal for unarmed (bludgeoning) combat against certain foes?

[Somna]

 

 

Wounds are unique to the monk class.  They're a resource used to power their special abilities.  This sounds like pure benefit, so more damage received = better than -- but that's not really the case.  Wounds have to be "spent" within a certain amount of time or they will be applied as damage.  If Wounds are spent, that stack of damage is gone for good.  If Wounds are acquired faster than the monk can spend them, It Is Bad.  If a monk absorbs their maximum amount of Wounds, damage above that amount is applied normally.  So it's not always the best idea to just strip every monk naked and flip off demon lords at point-blank range.

 

This is a ridiculously good idea. One question though - what happens if you have enough wounds to kill you in the next few seconds/round but you manage to finish off your opponents and combat right before wound damage would be applied and you'd die.

Does the wound system automatically reset itself at the end of combat with or without you taking the damage from it?

 

For me it does have the virtue of making the Monk class at least worth trying. But it may also depend on how well the unarmed Monk performs on the attack. Fighters will benefit from the versatility of choosing different tools for different enemies. How will the Monks fare in this regard? Perhaps they will only be optimal for unarmed (bludgeoning) combat against certain foes?

There could easily be feats that allow them flexibility in damage types, or class abilities -- at least some of the archetypes of the Pathfinder monk did -- so that's probably a non-issue.

[rjshae]

 

For me it does have the virtue of making the Monk class at least worth trying. But it may also depend on how well the unarmed Monk performs on the attack. Fighters will benefit from the versatility of choosing different tools for different enemies. How will the Monks fare in this regard? Perhaps they will only be optimal for unarmed (bludgeoning) combat against certain foes?

There could easily be feats that allow them flexibility in damage types, or class abilities -- at least some of the archetypes of the Pathfinder monk did -- so that's probably a non-issue.

 

Well it's an issue if you have to spend feats for the Monk to be effective in combat. But I'm sure it'll get worked out.

Edited January 22, 2013 by rjshae

[J.E. Sawyer]

Monks can use any weapon they like to perform any of their attacks; their unarmed weapons are simply another option.

[Doppelschwert]

Yay for my swords-monk. 

However, I think "wound" sounds odd as the name for the ressource they are using, especially if I translate it into my own language.

I don't think it needs a spiritual name like karma or chi, but I'd appreciate it if the name would be reconsidered, maybe giving it a more neutral sound.

[Gfted1]

So will the monk class be able to channel its "power" through weapons? Like that picture that shows the unarmed monk with flaming fists. If not, isnt the class just a poor mans fighter if he always has to equip some weapon to overcome some type of armor?

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yes, monks can use any of their abilities through equipped weapons or through their unarmed attacks.

[Hormalakh]

 

 

However, on a personal level, when it comes to being immersed in playing the game. Does the idea of never missing regardless of the maths and dice rolls sound right to you? Would you not like to see your massive beast of a warrior swing and miss completely? Or a fireball go wide and explode on the wall behind the intended victim?

 

I personally don't have a negative reaction to hitting 100% of the time.  Mechanically, the "all-or-nothing" D&D hit/miss system can easily change the outcome of a fight based on a die roll even when the players/DM are performing the most tactically sound action.  Our revised crit/hit/graze/miss system still allows for that possibility, but it is much less likely, especially over a series of rolls.

 

 

 

While I agree that RNG != RPG, I do think that random chance does bring in sort of a "fun" factor for many people. Dice rolls are basically a product of the D&D era RPGs, and people still find rolling dice fun. RPGs without RNGs can be made, but I don't think they'd be as fun. Someone should make one though...

 

Yay for my swords-monk. 

However, I think "wound" sounds odd as the name for the ressource they are using, especially if I translate it into my own language.

I don't think it needs a spiritual name like karma or chi, but I'd appreciate it if the name would be reconsidered, maybe giving it a more neutral sound.

I think this goes back to the "mortification of the flesh" aspect of the monks. While I'm not sure how "true" this aspect is to all monks, I do know that some monks IRL actually do this. Shaolin monks as well as Christian monks train their bodies/self-flagellate to reach a higher spiritual level.

 

A humorous depiction of this.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Sacred_Path]

While I agree that RNG != RPG, I do think that random chance does bring in sort of a "fun" factor for many people. Dice rolls are basically a product of the D&D era RPGs, and people still find rolling dice fun. RPGs without RNGs can be made, but I don't think they'd be as fun. Someone should make one though...

If you're able to simulate every nuance of a real situation, throw out the dice; i.e. one disadvantaged position throughout history was fighting with the sun in your eyes. So unless you have a 3rd person RPG with lighting that is realistic in this regard, you'd better stick to the dice.

[Hormalakh]

 

 

While I agree that RNG != RPG, I do think that random chance does bring in sort of a "fun" factor for many people. Dice rolls are basically a product of the D&D era RPGs, and people still find rolling dice fun. RPGs without RNGs can be made, but I don't think they'd be as fun. Someone should make one though...

If you're able to simulate every nuance of a real situation, throw out the dice; i.e. one disadvantaged position throughout history was fighting with the sun in your eyes. So unless you have a 3rd person RPG with lighting that is realistic in this regard, you'd better stick to the dice.

 

 

 

Games != realism.

[Sacred_Path]

Games != realism.

But do games work without suspension of disbelief (= aren't they better if they manage it)?

[rjshae]

 

Yay for my swords-monk. 

However, I think "wound" sounds odd as the name for the ressource they are using, especially if I translate it into my own language.

I don't think it needs a spiritual name like karma or chi, but I'd appreciate it if the name would be reconsidered, maybe giving it a more neutral sound.

I think this goes back to the "mortification of the flesh" aspect of the monks. While I'm not sure how "true" this aspect is to all monks, I do know that some monks IRL actually do this. Shaolin monks as well as Christian monks train their bodies/self-flagellate to reach a higher spiritual level.

 

I had the same experience with regards to the term "Wounds". It doesn't really imply a transformation or impulse transfer effect. Shrug. Not that it matters.

[Somna]

 

 

Yay for my swords-monk. 

However, I think "wound" sounds odd as the name for the ressource they are using, especially if I translate it into my own language.

I don't think it needs a spiritual name like karma or chi, but I'd appreciate it if the name would be reconsidered, maybe giving it a more neutral sound.

I think this goes back to the "mortification of the flesh" aspect of the monks. While I'm not sure how "true" this aspect is to all monks, I do know that some monks IRL actually do this. Shaolin monks as well as Christian monks train their bodies/self-flagellate to reach a higher spiritual level.

 

I had the same experience with regards to the term "Wounds". It doesn't really imply a transformation or impulse transfer effect. Shrug. Not that it matters.

What if it was Stigmata?

[Hormalakh]

"Stigmata are primarily associated with the Roman Catholic faith."

 

-Wikipedia

 

I like wounds. It's non-specific in its application to monks.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Somna]

"Stigmata are primarily associated with the Roman Catholic faith."

 

-Wikipedia

 

I like wounds. It's non-specific in its application to monks.

My bad.  Was just the first or two words that popped to mind because of Book of Exalted Deeds.  Torments was the other one.

[Doppelschwert]

I think the mortification of flesh is fine and is translated in a meaningful and original way into a mechanic, I just don't like the name for it.

For example, I feel like even the word pain sounds way better in this context. A wound is something your body suffers, while pain has more to do with willpower.