Flora, Fauna, Fungi and Fertilizer

[rjshae]

Just a few meandering thoughts this morning:

 

If a setting has giant spiders spinning giant webs, then shouldn't it have giant flies be capture by said predators? Flies the size of a cabbage that like to land and suck all the grease out of the barbarian's knobby scalp. Maybe the goblin equivalent in this realm keeps giant flies in cages and feed them their scraps and dung? Perhaps if there isn't enough scavenging, then the flies will circle injured party members trying to suck up their blood?

 

When there are giant bees buzzing around, why aren't there giant flowers for them to gather honey? Great big rhododendrons and tulips the size of a covered wagon. Huge flowers that emit clouds of will-sapping scents that daze and confuse creatures, leaving them vulnerable to insect predators that can spread the pollen. Maybe there are giant flower nymphs that make their beds between the soft petals and befriend the visiting insects.

 

If Ents are giant walking trees, how do you suppose they mate? Do they walk around dragging their branches through other trees to collect the pollen? Or do they make little walking seeds that go looking for pollen to collect? A little scattering her of seedlets would make for a novel sight. But perhaps the Ents do it like all the other trees and just let the pollen drift or be carried by insects. But in that case, why do they need to walk?

 

How do you suppose an ooze can tell you're there? Do they feel vibration through the ground and head toward it? Or do they form little polyps that can generate sensing organs? Are they scavengers and head for the stinky corpses? Maybe any bodies left behind by the party should occasionally attract a random slime or two?

 

What do you think? Any interesting or unusual thoughts per the subject?

[Sacred_Path]

Only one.

 

if there are huge rampaging monsters everywhere, why don't all dopey defenseless villagers have the consistency of mashed potatoes?

 

Or more on topic: excess numbers of monsters means excess numbers of human casualties, which should result in excess numbers of carrion eaters living on the outskirts of human settlements. Then again it would dictate that humans have to retreat to natural hiding places/ never have emerged from those in the first place. Therefore all humanoid civilization is probably the result of monsters' leisure to let their prey prosper and mulitiply before the great feast.

[Hormalakh]

double post n/t

Edited December 21, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

rjshae are you asking for Cazadores to be in the game? Great idea!

 

To be serious for a moment though, larger spiders can eat non-insects and many do. some larger spiders eat frogs and birds, so I spider that large might be able to eat a human or a goblin.

 

really, our own biology is much weirder than we can imagine: for example, we have fungi that create zombie ants, or fire ants making rafts from their bodies to cross bodies of water, or even these tree-hoppers Bocydium globulare which look like helicopters.

[AGX-17]

So... do you have a point beyond pointing out that most fantasy worlds are wildly unrealistic?

[maggotheart]

Should there be such questions, all can be answered because magic.

[PrimeJunta]

I'm a big supporter of believable ecologies, even in fantasy games. However there are better ways to do this than just make everything bigger (although you can if you want to, and goblins farming giant botflies is a pretty good idea actually).

 

But a giant orb spider could just be eating birds and bats instead of flies and moths, so there's no need for giant insects to go with it. I'm willing to overlook the problem of how it breathes. It also doesn't follow that having big scary beasts would have made civilization impossible; after all humans evolved in a world where the beasts were pretty bleeping big and scary. It's likely that our ancestors even hunted most of the biggest and scariest into extinction. Maybe they do that to giant spiders. Perhaps the venom is a prized commodity. Maybe that's weeded out the aggressive ones from their gene pool and left the rest either timid or way out in the wilderness.

[ShadowTiger]

Giant Wasps are not uncommon in fantasy games, they are a pretty cool enemy to fight. Giant flies are kind of lame if you ask me...

 

Flying enemies seem like they take lots of extra animation work while looking weird hovering only a few inches off the ground. If you aren't going to have a Z axis I would avoid having any enemies whose predominant movement mode is flight.

[Sacred_Path]

It also doesn't follow that having big scary beasts would have made civilization impossible; after all humans evolved in a world where the beasts were pretty bleeping big and scary.

After the last Ice Age there were very few giant-y beasts left though. Also the density of monsters in your average CRPG world is pretty high. And human civilization wasn't a thing to speak of as long as there were land-based carnivores the size of dragons (in b4 dragons don't eat).

[PrimeJunta]

In human history, settled farmers displaced roving hunter-gatherers just about everywhere the two came into contact. So if roving hunter-gatherers were able to effectively exterminate Pleistocene megafauna, and settled farmers were strong enough to displace (and eventually effectively exterminate, when there was no more wilderness to run to) hunter-gatherers, then why would settled farmers not be strong enough to displace Pleistocene megafauna should the two have come into contact?

 

I also don't see a huge difficulty with megafauna coexisting with settled farmers for a significant period of time -- say, several thousand years --, given the right conditions. It would be sufficient to displace them, but as long as there's virgin wilderness for them to be displaced into, they wouldn't necessarily go extinct.

 

At the very least, I think a human settlement could make itself enough of a nuisance to a dragon-sized predator that it would prefer to go after easier prey.

[Sabotin]

I know it's a fantasy setting, but you can't just "giant-" everything, biology doesn't work that way. On the other hand, having totally alien species around is kinda off-putting to me as most of the time I see them as just some random creature put there for the sake of originality, even if they are deeply connected with the setting. Maybe if such creatures were in some remote untouched area or magically sealed in some cave etc.

[Sacred_Path]

In human history, settled farmers displaced roving hunter-gatherers just about everywhere the two came into contact. So if roving hunter-gatherers were able to effectively exterminate Pleistocene megafauna, and settled farmers were strong enough to displace (and eventually effectively exterminate, when there was no more wilderness to run to) hunter-gatherers, then why would settled farmers not be strong enough to displace Pleistocene megafauna should the two have come into contact?

 

We established that extinction of megafauna wasn't singularly due to human hunting though. And I'm not convinced that the average density of extremely hostile and dangerous monsters in a fantasy world can be anywhere compared to real carnivore populations, not even mentioning that animals aren't stupidly violent in the way most fantasy monsters are. And then there are the intelligent, off-shoot races like orcs, gnolls, hobgoblins etc. that do their very best to drive everyone else to extinction.

 

The only thing that comes to mind that humanoids have going for them is magic.

[rjshae]

Giant Wasps are not uncommon in fantasy games, they are a pretty cool enemy to fight. Giant flies are kind of lame if you ask me...

 

True. Giant flies would be more like rabbits and deer; added for a bit of flavor rather than being something perilous. But you don't get many birds in dungeons, so you'd need something to catch in those giant spider webs. I'd actually like to see some giant centipedes appear in the game; I know they're probably difficult to render well, but for me they've always been a staple of low-level dungeons.

 

Flying enemies seem like they take lots of extra animation work while looking weird hovering only a few inches off the ground. If you aren't going to have a Z axis I would avoid having any enemies whose predominant movement mode is flight.

Hovering creatures, like harpies and stirges, seem okay to me, as long as they show some vertical range of motion during animations.

Edited December 22, 2012 by rjshae

[rjshae]

So... do you have a point beyond pointing out that most fantasy worlds are wildly unrealistic?

A point? Nope. Just wanted to chat about wildlife, so I threw out some discussion points.

[PrimeJunta]

And I'm not convinced that the average density of extremely hostile and dangerous monsters in a fantasy world can be anywhere compared to real carnivore populations, not even mentioning that animals aren't stupidly violent in the way most fantasy monsters are.

 

Now that I'll grant you. The little simulationist in me winces whenever charged by a passing bear. But it would be pretty tedious to actually have to trek, in-game, as long as you do in a real wilderness before getting anywhere.

 

And then there are the intelligent, off-shoot races like orcs, gnolls, hobgoblins etc. that do their very best to drive everyone else to extinction.

 

And each other. From the orc's POV, humans are just another pesky goblinoid race. Assuming the races had some ecological differences that would give them an edge in different circumstances, I don't see why they couldn't coexist for a quite a while.

 

The only thing that comes to mind that humanoids have going for them is magic.

 

If you're positing magic, why not posit a protector deity for each of the races, willing to intervene if it's faced with extinction? Plenty of reasons why those deities would prefer to fight each other by proxy through the mortal races, rather than face to face. Maybe they inhabit different realms. Maybe they're immortal. Maybe they're family and have a spell put on them by the Overgod stating that if one of them kills another, the world will end.

 

I guess what I'm sayin' is, I don't find it particularly difficult to invent somewhat consistent in-lore explanations for the diversity of fantasy races in a fantasy world.

[Sacred_Path]

If you're positing magic, why not posit a protector deity for each of the races, willing to intervene if it's faced with extinction? Plenty of reasons why those deities would prefer to fight each other by proxy through the mortal races, rather than face to face. Maybe they inhabit different realms. Maybe they're immortal. Maybe they're family and have a spell put on them by the Overgod stating that if one of them kills another, the world will end.

 

I guess that what it would come down to. Some (innately) magical player that took an interest in the potential of the developing humanoid races. Maybe a god, maybe other inhabitants of the same realm, who maybe developed at a time when the world looked different. Of course that's implying the standard convention that magic is bound to a modicum of intelligence.

[Hormalakh]

In human history, settled farmers displaced roving hunter-gatherers just about everywhere the two came into contact. So if roving hunter-gatherers were able to effectively exterminate Pleistocene megafauna, and settled farmers were strong enough to displace (and eventually effectively exterminate, when there was no more wilderness to run to) hunter-gatherers, then why would settled farmers not be strong enough to displace Pleistocene megafauna should the two have come into contact?

 

I also don't see a huge difficulty with megafauna coexisting with settled farmers for a significant period of time -- say, several thousand years --, given the right conditions. It would be sufficient to displace them, but as long as there's virgin wilderness for them to be displaced into, they wouldn't necessarily go extinct.

 

At the very least, I think a human settlement could make itself enough of a nuisance to a dragon-sized predator that it would prefer to go after easier prey.

 

All I could think was YABBA DABBA DOOO

[JFSOCC]

I'm all for the majority of beasts to be humans.

And having lots of children around to show that mortality is high in this society.

Walking on a map and seeing an ooze slowly digest a corpse and therefore not be hostile to the party would be a nice thing too. those things flesh out the world.

[rjshae]

Considering that underground areas are normally pitch black, creatures that hunt by touch and use entanglement and/or paralyzing toxins probably make evolutionary sense. Perhaps something that uses a Roper-type range attack to catch and paralyze its prey, while employing feathery antennae to sense movements. It could have a worm-like body so it can slither through cracks, then unfold its arms when a prey is near.

 

For giant insects, I suspect that a centipede-like form is more realistic. The individual arms don't need to be too large, yet it can grow to a significant size. Perhaps give it a stinger arm and grappling mandibles. It would be relatively slow compared to other animals, so it may need to rely on surprise. Perhaps the outer shell has developed a chameleon-like camouflage ability that allow it to remain in place, then ambush a passing animal.

 

For draconic beings, I'm not too fond of the color dragons from D&D. Instead, creatures that have adapted to individual biomes would be fitting. For example, a Forest Dragon could be long and sinuous so it can wiggle its way between the growths. The arms would be long and grasping, allowing it to pluck victims off the ground then bite their heads off. It may still have wings, but they are built for gliding across open meadows.

[Archmage Silver]

Giant spiders eat people. Or something. (Seriously, giant flies? They don't fit most RPGs... )

 

Walking trees (or Ents) grow out of the ground - they reproduce like trees. They'll only gain the ability to uproot themselves at a certain age. This way makes the most sense to me.

 

Ooze and slime creatures are of supernatural origins, thus they have more senses than humans or humanoid races and have no problems sensing their presence.