BG2 Vs NWN2 crafting

[Lephys]

The process of finding gems and such to use in crafting has always seemed a bit too 'grindy' for me. With some rare exceptions, I think that powerful magic items are something that should be found, not made by a blacksmith in a farming town.

 

Well, it's only really grindy if the game content isn't balanced well enough for you to find such gems and other components WHILST performing other tasks. I.e. if you have to travel to a cave and fight obstacles and whatnot JUST to find some components to craft something, there probably should've been some overlap on that cave, with some manner of quest or story bit, even if it's optional.

[Ulquiorra]

Sorry but in my opinion the best alchemy and blacksmith system are from games like skyrim, witcher or gothic ....

 

In Wticher only alchemy ...

 

In Gothic or Skyrim system is simple and everywon, from thef to mage can take something from that ... the D&D craft system is crap in my opinion ... to many rules like alchemy only for mages, blaksmithing only for fighters etc... stupid.

[Risen]

Well... if i had to choose, i would like 3 tiers of crafting, the 1st tier would be the somewhat mundane items, like your everyday day short sword and the basic stuff, the 2nd tier would be more complicated items, that require special ingredients and considerations (a special forge and rune stones to forge a hammer of fire) and would need you to have a high crafting level, the third tier should be kind of "questy" crafting, in which you get a recipe from a special npc crafter, and youll have to explore many dungeons and kill many monster to find the pieces-ingredients, and the you get a unique and awesome item from that. Sorry for the bad english.

[TrashMan]

PC being able to craft legendary items is just utterly, hoplesly stupid.

 

 

It's like the omnidisciplinary scientist cliche - it makes the PC too perfect. Where does he get hte time to become the world greatest smith and fighter and mage and whatever?

[Lephys]

PC being able to craft legendary items is just utterly, hoplesly stupid.

 

 

It's like the omnidisciplinary scientist cliche - it makes the PC too perfect. Where does he get hte time to become the world greatest smith and fighter and mage and whatever?

 

Does he automatically have to be the best at both fighting AND magery, just because he's capable of high-quality smithing?

 

Also, where does he get the time to, I dunno... gain 10-times his initial health in hitpoints? How does a Rogue go from barely being able to hide from a cow to hiding from Shadow Demons? Abstractions in the time requirements for character progression in an RPG are highly favorable to 300-hours of swinging a sword at a combat dummy just to go from "Extreme Novice" to "Starting to Slightly Approach The Ceiling of the Novice Bracket."

 

That being said, the crafting of legendary items doesn't even have to be done by traditional means. I don't know that you necessarily smelt some Gods' Tear crystal into a little lump, then hammer it out into a blade. Maybe you use crazily imaginative, fictitious soul powers to merge it onto its dragon-horn hilt. *shrug* Who's to say?

 

The developers, I suppose.

[Cultist]

NWN2 crafting was a fail. All you could create was trash. In BG2 you created powerful and unique things. Not generic long sword noone uses.

[TMZuk]

In fact, I belive there should be one more option in this poll: None. I don't like crafting. But it ~has~ to be, then BG2. I play an adventurer, not a miner/smelter/blacksmith/armourer/weaponsmith.

[Kissamies]

NWN2 all the way. BG2 style is just really quests where you have to find quest items in exchange for reward item, you can add that even without calling it crafting. But really, I would prefer NWN2 style because it adds customization. Items made this way should never be as powerful as the legendary items found in gameworld, but the player could create exactly what he wants.

 

Suppose the player is really good with polearms and needs a flaming weapon to deal with trolls. He's provided with a legendary flaming sword, but that doesn't allow him to use all his neat polearm feats. So he crafts a flaming halberd instead. Sure it only does 1d4 flame damage compared to the sword's 2d6, but it fits his character better. That sort of crafting is also a pleasant time sink for those who want to customise their character's gear to the max.

 

Of course there could be BG2 style find weapon pieces quests on top of that.

[SlithyTove]

I definetly like crafting, but mostly for consumables like ammo, potions, oils, grenades. Be nice to see some class specific crafting as well, like holy-oil for priests.

 

But I much prefer BG2 style epic weapons where they are found/forged by masters from located pieces. I still remember the Flail of the Ages, Crom Faeyr and the like a decade later but I haven't the slightest clue what I was just swinging at people in Skyrim even though I had to denude every mine in the realm to get the ore to make it. I also prefer magic items of any kind to be comparatively rare with more gradations of quality. A folded steel katana is a vastly better weapon than a pot-metal machete but there is nothing magical about it at all. Unlike NWN2 where I had bags full of magic by level 3.

 

I don't mind craft-based weapon modification though (like gem socketing for example) which can modify even legendary weapons in subtle ways.

[Jarmo]

NWN2 crafting was a fail. All you could create was trash.

 

+5 sword that does extra fire and lightning damage, belts of giant strength. Does not compute as trash.

If anything, NWN2 crafting was too powerful. And no XP penalties or anything, just skills and spells and items.

 

But it was an inventory management nightmare. Like 200 crafting items on the backpack.

NWN2 MotB streamlined things quite a bit, it was still crazy powerful but that was fine for epic levels.

 

I actually liked the crafting in ToEE as well. Simple enough, though the requirements/capabilities could have been presented more easily.

 

BG/BG2.. I liked stuff like taking an ankheg shell to a smith and there you go.

Not so much the greater items that have been broken in 3 parts and parts hidden all over the world.

Might be good for one item or two, if there's a reason why they'd be split. But basically it's.. very gamey hide and seek.

 

 

I'd like a kind of.. give me all that and more kind of approach.

 

Basic enhancements easily available through artisans or casting them yourself.

 

A masterwork smith sharpens your blade and applies some silver thing coating that keeps it sharp and protected.

A mage cast a spell to make the weapon do extra damage.

 

Both good for 100 strikes or so?

 

Or maybe the smith rebalances your axe? +1 to hit for good.

 

 

Crafting of stuff from rare stuff by craftsmen.

 

Unicorns horn - good for wand, dagger, spear tip?

Wyverns tail - good dagger or spear material.

Dragonscales - scale armor.

Elfskin - boots and gloves.

 

Multiple parts: Spear with unicorn horn tip and a shaft of Treant trunk?

Break down existing weapons to add better components, swap in axe shaft of troll legbone?

 

 

Legendary items in multiple parts, or item sets.

 

Should have a plot or quest stuff behind all of these. Sword of Legendary King, broken in 3 parts when fighting the Nazgul.

Parts were meant to be reforged, but instead were buried with his 3 sons when the kingdom fell. Stuff like that.

 

Helm, breastplate and boots. Of Thor. Should have a reason why they aren't kept together to begin with.

Maybe they're relics? Kept in separate monasteries, or some pilfered away.

 

But don't make me carry eleventy billion kinds of craft-items of which I'll ever use about 3, to make some trivial crap.

[TrashMan]

PC being able to craft legendary items is just utterly, hoplesly stupid.

 

 

It's like the omnidisciplinary scientist cliche - it makes the PC too perfect. Where does he get hte time to become the world greatest smith and fighter and mage and whatever?

 

Does he automatically have to be the best at both fighting AND magery, just because he's capable of high-quality smithing?

 

Also, where does he get the time to, I dunno... gain 10-times his initial health in hitpoints? How does a Rogue go from barely being able to hide from a cow to hiding from Shadow Demons? Abstractions in the time requirements for character progression in an RPG are highly favorable to 300-hours of swinging a sword at a combat dummy just to go from "Extreme Novice" to "Starting to Slightly Approach The Ceiling of the Novice Bracket."

 

It is that retarded abstraction that I hate.

 

I don't want to see redicolous skill levels or power levels (but unfortunately I probably will).

[Karkarov]

Where is the neither option? And Baldur's Gate had crafting? You mean the Dwarf that said "Bring me Dragon Scales and I will make ye a fine set of plate HARHARHAHRA?!?!?!"

 

That is not crafting dude, that's a fetch quest with a really great reward at the end.

[necromate]

Well, if we already have a stronghold... we could have our own blacksmith/enchanter etc too, but because highly skilled craftsmen are hard to come by, the player has to complete some sort of quest to get them. (mind you not 1 at a time with retarded fetch him / save him quest, it would be great to integrate them into the story some way)

Our very own merchant pal could get the materials while we are away questing, no grinding required.

You just tell the Blacksmith what kind of waepon you will be needing, and he will make it, cause you are so nice you let them stay at your place and do business/provide shelter from bandits... for legendary items -> they will need tomes/better forge and education -> quest, they become temporaly party members maybe (off we go to mount doom to create the ring, H3H3H3H3H3H3)

I know this is similar to your NWN2 stronghold, but that felt a bit annoying, cause they were just regular NPC-s, with no real personality.

[kabaliero]

none

 

cause i friggin' hate to lose a chance of getting

a particular component with the plot advancement

 

or the crafting quality being tied to the plot anyhow

 

and all crafting-resource areas should be open to re-visit

at any stage of the game

[Woden]

Crafting epic items is just too darn cheesy and uninspired in BG2, let me cite two reasons.

 

1) Like Mr Sawyer would say, there's no choice involved. You happen across parts of an epic item, of course you take them with you. Of course you will have the item assembled later on if it's useful.

 

2) It offers nothing that couldn't be achieved by simply placing the whole item in that location. "Gee, I wonder when I'll find the blade to that hilt" isn't exciting at all.

Both of those are easily solved by, for example, making it so that there are multiple items which could be made from the parts.

 

Just to give some examples:

 

Perhaps the Pommel Jewel of the Equalizer, in addition to its obvious use in reforging the sword, could instead be used to make a powerful amulet. Or the Wave Blade could be mounted onto an axe handle instead of being reunited with the Wave Shaft. Maybe that Ankheg shell, in addition to being made into plate mail, could be broken up into smaller pieces and used to make scale mail for a lighter alternative, or even turned into a weapon of some sort. The possibilities can be even better if this sort of idea is incorporated from the very start.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Woden

[ReyVagabond]

I want for heavy crafting Master Crafters NPCs, that you give the Materials and pay them and they craft that awesome new gear. maybe adding a extra money to have edit the looks, for more customization.

For example we can reclute master frafters for our keep and discover new supplys of materials so they can craft better stuff. and so on.

 

but having a small crafting system, so we can -craft Arrows, Venoms, Maybe potions, Repair weapons and armors, and so on.

 

that's it short and sweet, you cant expect that you the adventurer will be the best armorsmith like in skyrim, but competent enogh to sharpen your blade after a fight is good enogh for me.

[TMZuk]

I think the repair option is another amusing/annoying trope.

 

Of course, this is a fantasy RPG, but still....

 

A suit of plate is a costly, difficult item to make, and in fact, it has to be made specificly for the wearer. It takes a long time and a lot of skill. So why is in FRPGs it can be done in twenty minutes? And why is it, it can be repaired in the middle of nowhere, with no anvil, no furnace and what have we?

 

It's as silly as crafting where you mine the raw-materials yourself, smelt them, cast them to ingots, smith the ingots to whatever item, temper it, sharpen it, and put on hilt/handle. All by yourself.

 

Stop it already! That's why there's MONEY in the game. So the protagonist can pay craftsmen to do craftsmens work.

Edited January 11, 2013 by TMZuk

[ReyVagabond]

I think the repair option is another amusing/annoying trope.

 

Of course, this is a fantasy RPG, but still....

 

A suit of plate is a costly, difficult item to make, and in fact, it has to be made specificly for the wearer. It takes a long time and a lot of skill. So why is in FRPGs it can be done in twenty minutes? And why is it, it can be repaired in the middle of nowhere, with no anvil, no furnace and what have we?

 

It's as silly as crafting where you mine the raw-materials yourself, smelt them, cast them to ingots, smith the ingots to whatever item, temper it, sharpen it, and put on hilt/handle. All by yourself.

 

Stop it already! That's why there's MONEY in the game. So the protagonist can pay craftsmen to do craftsmens work.

 

But still, one of the things i liked about NW2 whas finding metal veins, and when you had your keep you could send people to go and gather them.

 

Something like that could hapen in PE, in your travels you find some silver vein, once in town you sell the info to a merchant/smith for some money and a piece of the action or something like that. (it could be awesome if the next time you go there you find a prospector and some one building a mine there)

then that merchant in the long run will have acces to silver items, and so on.

as for repairing armors in the middle of nowhere, that could done in ala skyrim( most dungeons have a forge here and there that you could borrow). or simple a in the "camp" using Smything kit, a small anvil and hammer just to repair your armor for a short while till you get to a city and what not.

 

lets sat there are armor damage system in the game.

 

you have a perfect condition, a damaged condition, a broken condition.

while in damaged condition you could patch it so it can regain some of its properties.

you cant repair it to 100%. but at the end of they game with a superior smything kit that weights a ton, you can repair your armor and keep it at 90%.

 

still its all about having fun.

[Viperswhip]

I've always found it odd that adventurers out wandering the world, saving it or whatever, have time to become master crafters as well. I like the BG system because you find a shell, and take it to a master blacksmith who makes your armor. Makes sense to me.

[TMZuk]

 

But still, one of the things i liked about NW2 whas finding metal veins, and when you had your keep you could send people to go and gather them.

 

Something like that could hapen in PE, in your travels you find some silver vein, once in town you sell the info to a merchant/smith for some money and a piece of the action or something like that. (it could be awesome if the next time you go there you find a prospector and some one building a mine there)

then that merchant in the long run will have acces to silver items, and so on.

 

 

Yes it could, if we stick to silly FRPG tropes. Because in RL it could not. You would not know a silvervein if you saw one. Because you aren't a mining engineer. It takes skill, knowledge and perseverance to find an vein of ore. It's not something anyone just stumble upon.

 

Once more: I'd rather have no crafting, mining, suveying and similar nonsense. You have money in the game for a reason!

[Lephys]

Once more: I'd rather have no crafting, mining, suveying and similar nonsense. You have money in the game for a reason!

 

Why not just hire mercenaries to rescue NPCs and save the world?

 

Also, why is it impossible that you'd have, say, a Dwarf in your party who has been alive for more than 40 years and who grew up within an ore-location-dependent industry?

 

All this "When do people get the time to know about things other than combat AND be good at combat?!" stuff... There are plenty of people in our military who joined when they were approximately 20. Before that, they grew up on farms, or studied engineering, or fixed cars and other vehicles all the time. Hell, my brother didn't even wait for cars. He started building bicycles for kids in the neighborhood when he was about 13. By the time he had his driving permit at 15, he was already repairing and customizing his own vehicles for hours a day. He never received any school training for it at all.

 

You couple that with the abstraction of time in RPGs that we don't mind (unless you want the game to actually take 7,000 hours to complete, and/or for all stories to encompass your characters aging 30 years) and you've got a pretty good range of skills characters can be expected to have.

 

Why is everything always either "something about this bugs me, and therefore it's 10-million-percent ridiculous" or "I like this and therefore it is the single most purposeful, efficient mechanic we could ever incorporate into the game"? That's not how things are. There factors to consider when deciding "should characters in this world we're completely making up from scratch be capable of crafting?", and they depend on yet other factors.

 

If you're not fond of the idea, then don't craft. I doubt they're going to make the lass boss fight take place at a giant forge, where your party must all partake in the crafting of a massive, magical cage within which to trap the ultimate evil for all eternity.

 

You don't have to justify your opinion. You're allowed to dislike crafting. But, I can hate something and still see the merit in it. I hate doing mean, horrible things in RPGs, but I can see the value in having the option to not always be a guardian saint.

[Hassat Hunter]

I never liked crafting in games. It made The Witcher II weaker. It made Drakensang weaker. It pretty much hurts every game I encounter it in.

 

That's oppossed to BG2's system, which is just collect and then turn into another item. No skills, no gathering 15 wood. Just unique items to found and make.

Perfect!

[IndiraLightfoot]

I miss the option "none of the crafting systems in NWN2 and BG2 was to my taste". I've gotten quite tired of crafting, it feels to meta-gamey and game-breaking. In MotB I immediately abstained from any crafting because of the ridiculous overpowered elemantal damage mix on weapons, and usually it is no fun. I'd much rather have Fallout NV kind of system to "crafting": some repairing, maintenance, that is very easy to do, as well as a few possibilities to mod rare kinds of items as well as upgrade, say, arrows or bolts, but for that you need to find very unique items, not just staple stuff from the bush or goo in barrels. I could live without a crafting system altogether.

[Luridis]

Personally, I'd like to see...

 

Basic item crafting available early on so you can upgrade your equipment. Enchanting is nice, but the materials for it should be so exceedingly rare¹ that burning them is a hard decision. For the interim, I'd like to see temporary enchants for your equipment you can make and use on difficult fights, etc. i.e. Smiths could make sharpening stones that add keen or enchanters/alchemists that could make oils of +1, +2, or some that breach damage reduction, etc. Craftable healing kits for god's sake please... I really would like to hit the rest button less on the principal alone in NWN2. Please, let me save my healing spells for combat. I'd be happy to forgo the ability to use healing skill in combat for the ability to use it much more frequently out of combat. Some way to get rid of level/attribute drain and poison/disease out of combat without a priesty type in the party would also be nice.

 

1. ^ By "exceedingly rare" I mean "not very often", while still being on random loot tables. I hate when things like this come in regimented drops from specific encounters along the story line. This prevents you from ever "getting lucky" and having that woo-hoo moment because you're going to be able to put that fire enchant on your longsword sooner than you anticipated.

 

Edit: One of the things I really liked about The Witcher is that health potions worked as a temporary regeneration instead of a flat dump into your health pool. Personally, I felt like it made them more of a tactical decision than a button to wanton spam during boss fights.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Luridis

[Gfted1]

I miss the option "none of the crafting systems in NWN2 and BG2 was to my taste". I've gotten quite tired of crafting, it feels to meta-gamey and game-breaking. In MotB I immediately abstained from any crafting because of the ridiculous overpowered elemantal damage mix on weapons, and usually it is no fun. I'd much rather have Fallout NV kind of system to "crafting": some repairing, maintenance, that is very easy to do, as well as a few possibilities to mod rare kinds of items as well as upgrade, say, arrows or bolts, but for that you need to find very unique items, not just staple stuff from the bush or goo in barrels. I could live without a crafting system altogether.

 

 

You are a rare poster here as most cant control themselves from using in game mechanics, hence the wonderful world of PE and anti-degenerate gameplay. I hope trying to craft an epic item causes the player character to receive an electric shock and reduces their health to 1 for the rest of the game.