USA and EU: Masks dropped!

[BruceVC]

More importantly there is nothing wrong with Capitalism. It has uplifted more people than any other economic system, one accepted definition is

 

"An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market"

 

What has happened globally in the world in the last few years is not the failure of Capitalism but the implementation and interpretation of it in some cases and the personal greed of certain corporations .

Edited December 1, 2012 by BruceVC

[TrashMan]

What has happened globally in the world in the last few years is not the failure of Capitalism but the implementation and interpretation of it in some cases and the personal greed of certain corporations .

 

Replace capitalism with any system and that statement woudl stil be true. So many systems sound good on paper.

[BruceVC]

What has happened globally in the world in the last few years is not the failure of Capitalism but the implementation and interpretation of it in some cases and the personal greed of certain corporations .

 

Replace capitalism with any system and that statement woudl stil be true. So many systems sound good on paper.

 

Do you have a viable alternative economic system?

[Sacred_Path]

good thread gentlemen

 

 

try reading it while drunk

[obyknven]

\

 

Herbert Horatio Kitchener (1850–1916) was best known for his famous recruitment posters bearing his heavily moustachioed face and pointing hand over the legend, "Your country needs you". Inventor of concentration camps.

http://angloboer.com/crimes.htm

The British, Ethnic Cleansing and Concentration Camps

http://www.ocnus.net...ion_Camps.shtml

Even by the standards of the time (and certainly by those of today), British political and military leaders committed frightful war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Boers of South Africa -- crimes for which no one was ever brought to account. General Kitchener, for one, was never punished for introducing measures that even a future prime minister called "methods of barbarism." To the contrary, after concluding his South African service he was named a viscount and a field marshal, and then, at the outbreak of the First World War, was appointed Secretary of War. Upon his death in 1916, he was remembered not as a criminal, but rather idolized as a personification of British virtue and rectitude.

 

Concentration Camps in England

http://www.spartacus...ncentration.htm

On the outbreak of the First World War the British government decided to establish concentration camps for German and Austrian subjects living in the country. Ernest Sackville Turner, in his book, Dear Old Blighty (1980) has argued: "It is by now widely believed that Britain invented the concentration camp in the South African War. However, in 1914 the term had not attracted any real measure of obloquy and it was often used to describe the numerous corrals for aliens and internees set up in wartime Britain."

 

Did the United States put its own citizens in concentration camps during WWII?

http://history.howst...rnment-camp.htm

After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt made the decision to relocate more than 100,000 Japanese and Japanese-Americans from their homes on the West Coast to camps around the country. Although FDR himself called them "concentration camps," we don't use that term today -- it's loaded because of its connection to the Holocaust in Nazi Germany.

[WDeranged]

Slightly relevant, farmers spray milk at EU Parliament

 

http://www.telegraph...l?frame=2411125

[Gorth]

What has happened globally in the world in the last few years is not the failure of Capitalism but the implementation and interpretation of it in some cases and the personal greed of certain corporations .

 

Replace capitalism with any system and that statement woudl stil be true. So many systems sound good on paper.

 

Do you have a viable alternative economic system?

 

The Boer war... capitalism in action, how dare those peasants be in the way of our free market

 

Edit: Charles Dickens England was probably the epitome of capitalism. Since then, it has taken a downturn with a number of countries trying to curb it and protect people from it.

[BruceVC]

What has happened globally in the world in the last few years is not the failure of Capitalism but the implementation and interpretation of it in some cases and the personal greed of certain corporations .

 

Replace capitalism with any system and that statement woudl stil be true. So many systems sound good on paper.

 

Do you have a viable alternative economic system?

 

The Boer war... capitalism in action, how dare those peasants be in the way of our free market

 

 

 

I see your point and I am not suggesting that Capitalism is perfect. But I still maintain it works. For me the ideal system is probably a hybrid economic system between Socialism and Capitalism. So for example corporations are responsible for growing the economy and reinvesting money back into there own business but governments have the legal ability to intervene in the actions of big business if there decisions are harmful to the countries growth. So goverments can stop companies shipping jobs overseas and they can so no to payments of obscene bonuses.

 

 

But we do live in a global world with free markets so this is harder to implement than it seems. I just believe the business of any government should be to govern and not interfere too much in the affairs of the private industry

[Agelastos]

 

I see your point and I am not suggesting that Capitalism is perfect. But I still maintain it works. For me the ideal system is probably a hybrid economic system between Socialism and Capitalism. So for example corporations are responsible for growing the economy and reinvesting money back into there own business but governments have the legal ability to intervene in the actions of big business if there decisions are harmful to the countries growth. So goverments can stop companies shipping jobs overseas and they can so no to payments of obscene bonuses.

 

 

That's pretty much what we've got here. It's far from ideal, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkhemmet

[BruceVC]

?

I see your point and I am not suggesting that Capitalism is perfect. But I still maintain it works. For me the ideal system is probably a hybrid economic system between Socialism and Capitalism. So for example corporations are responsible for growing the economy and reinvesting money back into there own business but governments have the legal ability to intervene in the actions of big business if there decisions are harmful to the countries growth. So goverments can stop companies shipping jobs overseas and they can so no to payments of obscene bonuses.

 

 

That's pretty much what we've got here. It's far from ideal, though.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Nordic_model

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Folkhemmet

 

Excellent and informative links, I know that no economic system is perfect but I firmly believe that the Scandinavian countries have the correct balance.

 

What would you say are the issues with the Scandinavian economic system?

[JFSOCC]

good thread gentlemen

 

 

try reading it while drunk

Is there any other way to read it?

[Calax]

?

I see your point and I am not suggesting that Capitalism is perfect. But I still maintain it works. For me the ideal system is probably a hybrid economic system between Socialism and Capitalism. So for example corporations are responsible for growing the economy and reinvesting money back into there own business but governments have the legal ability to intervene in the actions of big business if there decisions are harmful to the countries growth. So goverments can stop companies shipping jobs overseas and they can so no to payments of obscene bonuses.

 

 

That's pretty much what we've got here. It's far from ideal, though.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Nordic_model

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Folkhemmet

 

Excellent and informative links, I know that no economic system is perfect but I firmly believe that the Scandinavian countries have the correct balance.

 

What would you say are the issues with the Scandinavian economic system?

Everything costs a pile. 4 hamburgers is 100 bucks

[Agelastos]

?

I see your point and I am not suggesting that Capitalism is perfect. But I still maintain it works. For me the ideal system is probably a hybrid economic system between Socialism and Capitalism. So for example corporations are responsible for growing the economy and reinvesting money back into there own business but governments have the legal ability to intervene in the actions of big business if there decisions are harmful to the countries growth. So goverments can stop companies shipping jobs overseas and they can so no to payments of obscene bonuses.

 

 

That's pretty much what we've got here. It's far from ideal, though.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Nordic_model

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Folkhemmet

 

Excellent and informative links, I know that no economic system is perfect but I firmly believe that the Scandinavian countries have the correct balance.

 

What would you say are the issues with the Scandinavian economic system?

 

Oh, my... how much time do you have?

I've barely slept in 72 hours, so I can't think straight right now. I'll try to get back to you once my mind is less clouded.

 

Everything costs a pile. 4 hamburgers is 100 bucks

 

What?! Maybe in Norway.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Agelastos

[BruceVC]

 

Oh, my... how much time do you have?

I've barely slept in 72 hours, so I can't think straight right now. I'll try to get back to you once my mind is less clouded.

 

Everything costs a pile. 4 hamburgers is 100 bucks

 

What?! Maybe in Norway.

 

Okay when you are feeling up to it just post some high level challengers , in your opinion, with the Scandinavian economic system. I am interested in what people living in those countries think

[Farbautisonn]

Norway is infamously expensive, but with their oilfund they can generally afford it. Salaries are insanely high. Too high. Alot of other scandinavians work on oil rigs and in the medical field in the norwegian rural areas where norwegians cant be arsed to work.

 

Sweden... Second highest tax rates of the world (denmark and sweden compete on having the highest tax pressure in the world, with Denmark currently in the lead), and its beer is ****. They eat rotten fish too. Plus they export crap pop musicians that make normal peoples ears bleed.

 

Denmark. Top tax bracket, punitive taxes on alcohol, tobacco and especially cars. 300% taxes for your average car, 400% plus for luxory vehicules... or what the danish DMV considers "luxory". 25pct value added tax on everything to boot, plus registration fees on most anything. On the bright side, our beer is good, our akvavit is better and the blondes are the best. Unless we compare the blondes to the finnish lasses but those are slightly bat****e insane. And finally Danes are rather laid back about most things and generally only get our knickers in a twist if people tell us what to believe and what to draw. Then we get cranky.

[BruceVC]

Norway is infamously expensive, but with their oilfund they can generally afford it. Salaries are insanely high. Too high. Alot of other scandinavians work on oil rigs and in the medical field in the norwegian rural areas where norwegians cant be arsed to work.

 

Sweden... Second highest tax rates of the world (denmark and sweden compete on having the highest tax pressure in the world, with Denmark currently in the lead), and its beer is ****. They eat rotten fish too. Plus they export crap pop musicians that make normal peoples ears bleed.

 

Denmark. Top tax bracket, punitive taxes on alcohol, tobacco and especially cars. 300% taxes for your average car, 400% plus for luxory vehicules... or what the danish DMV considers "luxory". 25pct value added tax on everything to boot, plus registration fees on most anything. On the bright side, our beer is good, our akvavit is better and the blondes are the best. Unless we compare the blondes to the finnish lasses but those are slightly bat****e insane. And finally Danes are rather laid back about most things and generally only get our knickers in a twist if people tell us what to believe and what to draw. Then we get cranky.

 

Thats an informative post. You highlighted what I have read, that taxes are high in the Scandinavian countries. But your education, public health and government services are of a very high quality. So I think that high taxes seems to work in your countries as the quality of life is good? Oh and the blondes are amazing !!!

[Agelastos]

Sweden... Second highest tax rates of the world (denmark and sweden compete on having the highest tax pressure in the world, with Denmark currently in the lead), and its beer is ****. They eat rotten fish too. Plus they export crap pop musicians that make normal peoples ears bleed.

 

 

You mean people over the age of 60 eat rotten fish (in Norway too, btw). Every country has at least one delicacy that the rest of the world finds disgusting.

And being the 3rd largest exporter of pop and rock music in the world, it can't all be "crap", right? Don't bother to answer, it's 100% subjective anyway.

 

To answer BruceVC's question (now that I've had my 6th cup of coffee and is beginning to feel like a human being again), MY problem with the Nordic model, or at least with the Swedish "folkhemmet", is that it is so socialized, so focused on "equality", that individual liberties are being suppressed. Not in a deliberate, top-down authoritarian way, but from the bottom-up. While we may appear to be very individualistic (everyone under the age of 30 seems to be part of some more or less extreme sub-culture, Stockholm is the most tattooed city in the world [per capita], etc.), it's all just an illusion. Our Lutheran and Social Democratic heritage has given rise to a cultural phenomenon called the "Law of Jante":

The Law of Jante is a pattern of group behaviour towards individuals within Scandinavian communities, which negatively portrays and criticises individual success and achievement as unworthy and inappropriate.

This "Law of Jante" is pretty much the bedrock of Scandinavian culture, and have thus had a great impact on the Nordic model. We may not have governments that enforce uniformity with violence (even if they've made extensive use of social engineering in the past), but this way of thinking is so deep-seated in our culture that we basically enforce it ourselves through peer pressure.

This means that there's usually only room for one school of thought in any discipline. Criticize the dominant school and you run the risk of getting shunned by your peers. Say something that isn't considered politically correct, and you'll never hear the end of it. No one will stop you from doing it, and there won't be any legal ramifications (unless you break the hate speech law), but you can be damn sure that it will have consequences.

 

As a result, income taxes on the rich are extremely high. I'm personally in favor of high income taxes, but in Sweden, they are so high that most people who are successful or lucky enough to become truly wealthy choose to move abroad. It's not only about the redistribution of wealth, it's also about "How dare you make more money than us?! You think you're something special, just because you had a few hit singles? Huh? You think you're better than us?"

 

There is no such thing as Gifted or Talented Education. If you even suggest that one child might be smarter than the majority of children his/her age and deserves the right to be challenged instead of being held back, you might as well carve a swastika into your forehead because apparently you've just admitted to being pro-eugenics (which is equated with being a neo-fascist). But you have to get used to being called a "neo-fascist" and "racist" anyway, because those are our favorite straw men.

 

I originally listed more examples (mostly about the social welfare system and about how easy it is to exploit), but realized that I was just ranting, so I deleted them.

 

Edit: I know that I came across as extremely negative. That wasn't my intent. But I think the lesson is this:

Equality and Individual Liberty are two ends of one scale. You can't have complete equality without giving up on freedom, and vice versa. People who think otherwise are just kidding themselves. There is no Utopian state.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Agelastos

[JFSOCC]

 

Taxes are high in the Scandinavian countries. But education, public health and government services are of a very high quality. So I think that high taxes seems to work in your countries as the quality of life is good? Oh and the blondes are amazing !!!

More of a brunette fan myself, but damn yes, this is the message I hope the world will one day get: Welfare states work well. Low crime, low income disparity, high education, high pay, great health (low infant death rates, high life-expectancy) And a fairly robust economy.

In other words, everything that you would want for a high quality of life. and all it takes is high tax rates. who knew?

[BruceVC]

Sweden... Second highest tax rates of the world (denmark and sweden compete on having the highest tax pressure in the world, with Denmark currently in the lead), and its beer is ****. They eat rotten fish too. Plus they export crap pop musicians that make normal peoples ears bleed.

 

 

You mean people over the age of 60 eat rotten fish (in Norway too, btw). Every country has at least one delicacy that the rest of the world finds disgusting.

And being the 3rd largest exporter of pop and rock music in the world, it can't all be "crap", right? Don't bother to answer, it's 100% subjective anyway.

 

To answer BruceVC's question (now that I've had my 6th cup of coffee and is beginning to feel like a human being again), MY problem with the Nordic model, or at least with the Swedish "folkhemmet", is that it is so socialized, so focused on "equality", that individual liberties are being suppressed. Not in a deliberate, top-down authoritarian way, but from the bottom-up. While we may appear to be very individualistic (everyone under the age of 30 seems to be part of some more or less extreme sub-culture, Stockholm is the most tattooed city in the world [per capita], etc.), it's all just an illusion. Our Lutheran and Social Democratic heritage has given rise to a cultural phenomenon called the "Law of Jante":

The Law of Jante is a pattern of group behaviour towards individuals within Scandinavian communities, which negatively portrays and criticises individual success and achievement as unworthy and inappropriate.

This "Law of Jante" is pretty much the bedrock of Scandinavian culture, and have thus had a great impact on the Nordic model. We may not have governments that enforce uniformity with violence (even if they've made extensive use of social engineering in the past), but this way of thinking is so deep-seated in our culture that we basically enforce it ourselves through peer pressure.

This means that there's usually only room for one school of thought in any discipline. Criticize the dominant school and you run the risk of getting shunned by your peers. Say something that isn't considered politically correct, and you'll never hear the end of it. No one will stop you from doing it, and there won't be any legal ramifications (unless you break the hate speech law), but you can be damn sure that it will have consequences.

 

As a result, income taxes on the rich are extremely high. I'm personally in favor of high income taxes, but in Sweden, they are so high that most people who are successful or lucky enough to become truly wealthy choose to move abroad. It's not only about the redistribution of wealth, it's also about "How dare you make more money than us?! You think you're something special, just because you had a few hit singles? Huh? You think you're better than us?"

 

There is no such thing as Gifted or Talented Education. If you even suggest that one child might be smarter than the majority of children his/her age and deserves the right to be challenged instead of being held back, you might as well carve a swastika into your forehead because apparently you've just admitted to being pro-eugenics (which is equated with being a neo-fascist). But you have to get used to being called a "neo-fascist" and "racist" anyway, because those are our favorite straw men.

 

I originally listed more examples (mostly about the social welfare system and about how easy it is to exploit), but realized that I was just ranting, so I deleted them.

 

Edit: I know that I came across as extremely negative. That wasn't my intent. But I think the lesson is this:

Equality and Individual Liberty are two ends of one scale. You can't have complete equality without giving up on freedom, and vice versa. People who think otherwise are just kidding themselves. There is no Utopian state.

 

Holy Smoke, that was one of the most interesting posts I have ever read about another country in ages. Thanks for sharing. I don't think you are coming across as negative, you are explaining your perspective and its been very informative. I wonder if other people on these forums from the Scandinavian countries feel the same as you do about the Scandinavian economic model?

[Gorth]

3 guesses why some of us migrate?

[BruceVC]

3 guesses why some of us migrate?

 

Gorth are you originally from the Scandinavian countries?

Edited December 3, 2012 by BruceVC

[Gorth]

3 guesses why some of us migrate?

 

Gorth are you originally from the Scandinavian countries?

Born in Denmark. Got a bit bored with it. Moved first to NZ and lived there for some years, then later to Australia (living for 6+ years here now).

[Nightshape]

3 guesses why some of us migrate?

 

Gorth are you originally from the Scandinavian countries?

Born in Denmark. Got a bit bored with it. Moved first to NZ and lived there for some years, then later to Australia (living for 6+ years here now).

 

Sounds hot and sunny, hot and sunny sucks...

[Volourn]

Yeah, but hot and sunny is usaully where the hot and sunny girls try to migrate to. L0L

[Hurlshort]

Yeah, but hot and sunny is usaully where the hot and sunny girls try to migrate to. L0L

 

Maybe I've just mellowed out in my old age, but your posts have been absolutely delightful lately Volo. I've really been enjoying what you have to say. I know it isn't important to you, but I thought it should be said.