Piracy and DRM

[alanschu]

Actually what I'm saying is anyone who would rather go through the massive headache of pirating a game rather than spending 20 seconds and 20 bucks to get it on Steam would more than likely not buy that game if it was available.Is it possible there are people like that? Sure, maybe. But at the same time it's also possible (and far more likely) that there are people who pirate a game they might be interested in and then proceed to buy said game if they like it (or tell their friends about it who then themselves buy it).

 

Pirating a game is a headache? Especially a DRM-free game? Why spend 20 seconds and $20 to get it on Steam when you can simply spend 20 seconds and get it for free. I agree that Steam's accessibility is a boon, but it's not like acquiring pirated games has remained as inconvenient as it was in the past either. The ironic part, however, is you're now stating the opposite argument that pirates use to justify their piracy in the first place: it's more convenient to pirate.

 

I also think you're understating how many people are simply leeches. (Whom even the groups that crack copy protections dislike)

 

 

They were not exaggerated.

 

Err, many of the Starforce complaints are in fact quite exaggerated. It became the catch all that if someone had an issue on their computer and a game with Starforce was installed, it was Starforce's fault. The creator of Daemon Tools actually spoke out IN SUPPORT of Starforce, indicating that many of the claims people made were just outright incorrect.

 

While I never played an Ubisoft game I am familiar with that kind of DRM. Ubisoft and Starforce aren't the only folks who tried that type of thing. It's exactly that type of DRM that got me to look for my first pirated game to begin with somewhere close to a decade ago now. I know I'm not the only person who ever got so fed up with DRM on a game they legitimately bought that they went and sought out ways on the internet to remove it. Lo and behold, there waiting to be discovered was the 'pirate' community.

 

Unfortunately I never buy this argument as a valid justification for piracy. All it is is entitlement.

 

If you're a man of principle and feel DRM is too prohibitive, then stand by your belief and don't play the game at all. Except, people really, really want to play it, so they come up with whatever rationalizations that prevent any cognitive dissonance because they simply must play that game. Or rather, they simply want to and don't care to do it legitimately, so they pirate it. No sale lost though, so no foul. It's hard to respect people like this.

 

I actually have a coworker that plays a decent amount of games, that hates DRM. Refuses to buy any game that has DRM (even a CD Key). He doesn't pirate games though. He just buys and plays ones that don't have DRM.

 

 

What those that pirate to avoid DRM don't realize they are doing is providing justification that tighter DRM could be a possible solution. If a game sells poorly and has been downloaded 10 million times, someone will see "lost sales." If a game sells poorly and hasn't been pirated at all, you don't give any excuse to the developer. The game did poorly because it was a poor game.

 

If a game has zero pirated downloads, there's no need to spend time or money on DRM. So while there may be the irony that tightening their grip will have more slip through their fingers, the cause of DRM is piracy. If people stopped pirating and just didn't buy games they didn't feel were worth the price that they are listed at and waited until price drops if necessary, $0 would be wasted on DRM. There's no sense attempting to combat anything if it's not there.

 

Unfortunately, it's a tragedy of the commons issue where some people ruin it for everyone, so other people further justify their actions by indicating that they are just a drop in the bucket. They'll say "It's not like if I stopped pirating that DRM would go away."

 

 

Unfortunately, for many it seems, people seem to feel that the ability to play video games is something they are entitled to do. So they do. Rather than standing up for what they believe in, they tell themselves that they play the game they want while sticking it to the man, without realizing they further compromise their hobby by doing so.

 

As a game developer, my dislike of piracy has shot up, while my support for DRM has actually gone down. I agree that it's typically not worth the trouble (especially since I'm in QA and often have to deal with these issues on release), but I recognize that the cause of DRM is piracy. If piracy didn't exist, neither would DRM. People will then justify that piracy helps keep prices down, which still isn't true. The only way that perspective would be true is if the people pirating would, in fact, not only buy the game if they couldn't pirate it, but also be willing to buy it at a higher price than what it currently sells for. Which undermines the cost reason for piracy.

 

 

 

TL;DR If you want DRM to go away, stop pirating video games.

Edited November 29, 2012 by alanschu

[Umberlin]

Simply put: At least in this game, there should be a zero tolerance by all parties for piracy (or copyright violation).

 

I didn't back with the e-mail attributed to this forum account, I use a very private e-mail for real money exchanges, so, I don't actually get some of the forum benefits that some of you do. So, maybe it'll mean something when I say, as a backer, that I trust Obsidian's choice to make a no DRM version of the game. As such, I accept, just accept, that there will be pirates.

 

See, here's the thing, how do you really enforce a zero tolerance by all parties for piracy? Some of the biggest publishers with some of the largest budgets have thrown ungodly amounts of money toward hammering out there pirate problem. How does a smaller project, and its fanbase, really enforce zero tolerance? How do they do anything about it? There may be some things, mostly small things, but they're all going to fall under the cover of, "It won't make a large impact." Historically some of the most pirated games out there, are also the ones that pushed hardest against the pirates. I won't say that they were asking for it, but when you draw attention to yourself, there's a certain percentage of the population that just gets ornery.

 

Remember when we were counting down the minutes before the kickstarter ended? How we would hope just one more backer would join us? How "every backer counts!" was the rallying cry for many of us? Well, the pirates are the ones who didn’t back this game, are waiting for the game to come out, and then demand to get a free copy “to try.” They didn’t take the risk of paying money in investing and now want to reap all the rewards of our risk. They are the true free-riders and this time, they are riding on the backs of us, the gamers. Not the corporations. Us. The Gamers.

 

I won't disagree, but I do still caution against making too big a deal of it.

 

To be honest, if PC wasn't pirated to hell and back, there'd probably be a PC version coming out the same day as the other two. The level of piracy that you get with the PC just cannibalizes the others, because people just steal that version, piracy's basically killing PC.

 

I would also caution some of the industry people, especially publishers, that talka bout Piracy the most, as some of the ones that complain about Piracy the most also turn out to be making the most money. I'm not on the Piracy is acceptably band wagon, but I do believe it's a fact of life, and not just on the PC. Enough trips to Brazil, and other places around the world, have revealed nice big streets full of vendors selling Consoles and Console Games that are . . . a little different than the ones you might buy in a store, in blank envelopes and boxes with game names written on them in black ink. While it's underplayed in the industry, in comparison to PC game piracy, it's really not a small thing.

 

So, yeah, I get it, piracy is a real deal and, yeah, people lose money on it, but, again, what stops them? Oddly enough some of the companies that do the least about it seem to have the least problems with it. I won't say it's the only way to go, but the companies that reward the legitimate player, instead of implementing measures to punish the pirate, that just end up punishing the legitimate player, isn't the path I'd take. Yet it's the most common path taken, it seems.

 

Basically, with a no DRM version of P:E coming, I expect piracy. I've put my money down. I'll encourage people to put their money down. I'll ask Obsidian to entice and reward the legitimate player. However, I will never ask people to take a zero tolerance stance toward piracy, nor request something be done about the piracy. I'll never ask for anything that might hurt the game or the legitimate player. In fact, what I'll ask for most, is that the pirate just be ignored, and that the legitimate player get all sorts of cool stuff, which, if you ask me, is far more likely to convince the pirate to actually put their money down too.

 

What's my basis for that? Well, despite Steam, essentially, being DRM, Valve's success with a lot of its games comes from exactly that methodology. Rewarding the legitimate player, instead of trying to punish or not tolerate the pirate - because, inevitably, those things end up hitting the legitimate player harder than they'll ever hit any pirate, if they manage to hit a pirate at all.

 

Some major games aren't even slated for a PC release at any point, the developers stating categorically that there won't be a PC version. Star Wars: Force Unleashed

 

Which, oddly, got a PC release, as did, strangely, Dark Souls. I have to say I didn't see that one coming. Despite worries on piracy, some of the most successful games out there are still PC exclusives, or, even if they later got a console release, were still massively succesful on the PC prior. You don't have the minecraft craze without the PC, nor all the great games on Steam that have no Console equivalent, that have found success on the PC, despite how much we talk about piracy being a problem.

 

Still, I don't, at all, disagree with your sentiment, at all. I'd prefer people buy the game. I don't want people to pirate it. I just question how much any anti-piracy measures will take. Still, all that said, I'll read through your proposals below and see what I think:

[Umberlin]

Here is where my proposal lies. I believe that piracy for Project: Eternity can be deterred most effectively through several avenues:

• Backers: Do not enable pirates or allow friends to pirate this specific game. What you do with other games I don’t care. As I said, whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. If they want to share a copy to see how the game plays, they should check out the forums and the updates or write to the developer asking for a demo. The less money Obsidian makes on this game, the less money there is to make a better expansion (or to make a case in the future to publishers from other developers that PC-only games do have a market). Enabling pirates either in forums or actively giving them a copy of the game takes away from both you and the developer.
  

 

Who is a pirate in this case. We can buy extra copies to give away, but we've paid for those, so I assume you mean actual copies you've made of the game, in which case, I agree. You shouldn't be replicating the game yourself, and giving it away. That's less about enabling pirates, and more about the individual just doing something they shouldn't.

 

• Developers: For those of us who have backed the game, as previously stated, DRM-free copies should exist. We have taken a risk in backing the game, and thus are both investors and legitimate purchasers of the game. The DRM clearly does not apply to us. You have listened to us and we thank you for it.
  

 

Right, and those are available through GOG.

 

• This is where I'll lose some of you, I'm sure, but the developers should find ways to discourage piracy from the general public by giving DRM-enabled or some other copyright-protected copy - with caveats.
  

 

Well . . . I'm not entirely sure what to say here. Steam is a great DRM service that manages to reward players. I don't disagree with its existence, I even like Steam, quite a but, still . . . I won't say you lost me, but I can see where it would lose some people. I know people that can't stand steam, despite it rewarding the player.

 

1. Developers: Determine if DRMs are neccesary or if other methods of copy protection would be suitable. A one-time online activation check or phone activation would be fine, but there might be more effective methods. If you do use DRMs, use the most cost-conscious and effective DRM protection you can without being “intrusive.” Do not use always-on DRMs. Honestly, developers come and go these days. While I would hate it if Obsidian closes its doors, it happens. Don’t let players fear the day that their “good old game” would no longer be playable because the company servers no longer work.
   

 

The one time activation could work, I don't know. I agree, with the other point wholly, I'm not a fan of always on DRM either. Especially for the, "well, what happens if something happens to you, the developer/publisher, or your service, what happens to my game? Well, Valve way back said they'd unlock the games on Steam if they ever went under. It remains to be seen if they'd actually do that, but, when other people bring in always on DRM, I rightly wonder what might happen one day, if I'll lose access to my game entirely.

 

• Developers: Give a toll-free, easy to reach tech support line for DRM-related issues to legitimate buyers while the DRM is in effect. They should not have to pay “several dollars a minute to call tech support regarding issues that are no fault of their own,” nor be held behind computerized answering machines. I also agree with the article when it states “Emailing tech support on these issues is also a complete waste of time due to vague stock answers, so email support also needs to be shored up.”
  

 

Especially with the automated responses, it can be outright infuriating. I think they had it right, without a doubt.

[Umberlin]

• Developers: The DRM should be disabled after a year with a patch. As time passes, a DRM-free copy makes sense. At that point the game will have likely been cracked anyway, and DRM only affects those who have purchased the game. But this early DRM will stop some from stealing the game and purchasing a copy. From the article:
  What most users don't consider is that 'day-one' or 'day-zero' piracy as it's called is disproportionately more damaging to a game's sales than at any other time, as this article explains:

  Day zero piracy is where a game is released for free by pirates before the official release. It's disastrous for the developer and publisher because whatever route gets the game out to the gamer first will be the favoured choice, so a game uploaded to the internet before the release date will have a huge impact on sales.

  It's around the release period when marketing hype has reached fever pitch, and gamers are most excited about getting a game. If a working pirated version is available at the same time, the potential for lost sales is enormous.…So to protect games, copy protection or DRM doesn't need to be impervious to piracy, it simply needs to hinder casual piracy and day-zero piracy, and also not only make the process more of a hassle for would-be pirates, but place uncertainty in their minds as to how long it will actually take to get their hands on a working bug-free crack for the game. While 'hardcore' pirates will always wait for a crack, even a few days' delay can affect a person who may have been sitting on the fence between pirating a game or purchasing it, especially if a legitimate digital copy is only a download away from somewhere like Steam. Even the makers of StarForce DRM have said exactly the same thing regarding the use of their protection technology. On the StarForce forums they said this:

  The purpose of copy protection is not making the game uncrackable - it is impossible. The main purpose is to delay the release of the cracked version. Maximum sales rate usually takes place in the first month(s) after the game release. If the game is not cracked in that period of time, then the copy protection works well.

   
  

 

I can't disagree with anything here, and that the StarForce point looks at it in such a way shows they have a good grasp of the situation, unlike . . . some persons out there, especially some of the major game Publishers in the industry. That said . . . StarForce isn't usually a name I like to see attached to a game I've purchased.

 

• Players and backers: Support Obsidian in its choice. We are the players, the buyers, and the backers. If Obsidian has shown us respect, we should support them in their decision and fight against illogical public outcries and mass hysteria when it comes to DRM. Educate yourselves first about the DRM and support them. Developers shouldn't have to deal with hysterical and misinformed customers (sometimes egged on by pirates themselves) alone. Now, I don't mean that everyone who has concerns abaout DRM is illogical, uneducated, or hysterical, but it is possible that they are misinformed. It would be truly abhorrent to first support these folks by investing in them, but then to turn around and allow others to take away from what ALL of us, supporters, buyers and developers, have helped to create. If we show that we are there beside them, Obsidian is less likely to back down.
  

 

Still, there are plenty of DRM forms out there that punish the player, and that's not just a viewpoint, that's first hand experience, to the extent that some forms have rendered games I've bought unplayable. The result is that I've become extremely choosey about which games I'll even think about buying, all the way to, some Publishers, I just don't buy from at all anymore. Ever. No matter how good a game looks. Fool me once, and all that. EA gets a lot of flack, and my experience with one of their attempts at DRM, which sent me to their tech support, was a week long venture, under which their tech support gave me one of the most grating, frustrating and humiliating experiences I've ever gone through in trying to do something so simple as playing a game.

 

I did, eventually, get to play Mirror's Edge though.

 

In the end, I agree with the portions about supporting Obsidian, I just caution against certain types and extremes when it comes to measures taken.

 

• Developers: Be upfront with your fans and customers. Employing DRM itself has a cost, both financially and with goodwill. When you have made your considerations, tell us why or why not you don’t want to employ DRM. Be honest about different pricing for games in different markets where the salaries of the population does not allow for a lot of disposable income. Whatever you decide on your prices make sure that it is fair.
  

 

Given backers, essentially, could have a copy of the game for as little as, what was it . . . 25usd? I can't imagine the full price being very out there.

 

• Finally, developers: And this doesn't necessarily go to you OEI, but to other developers possibly reading this. Do not ever take advantage of the social contract that we the gamers have made with you. DRM is a hot topic for us. If you make a promise, stick with it. You aren't seen as the "evil, money-grubbing publishers." Don't lose that goodwill now by getting greedy. Some developers have gone this route before and have - to this day - lost support by gamers like me. Do this and gamers will pirate your games. You have been warned.
  

 

Agreed.

 

Whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. I am a gamer first and foremost and I want good games to continue to be made. If I have to take a little bit of heat for it, then so be it. As long as those games keep being made for me and people like me.

 

Respectable.

 

Good post, thank you for submitting it, even if I don't agree on every last point.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Umberlin

[Juneau]

I think there are flaws in every argument for and against piracy and my points like most depend on the developing company and the producer so I'll summarise but please when you read it don't take it word for word or literally ( apart from my question at the end), there are occasions where my point doesn't apply. I even wrote a paper on this that got me an award years ago (I'm not posting it on the internet nor am I spending hours trawling for source data) because I've had this debate with people several times a year for the last 17 years since the time of the PS1 and copied CDs and on the whole my view hasn't changed.

 

1 ) Piracy is bad, but we will all do it in one form or another. You probably don't even realise you pirate some of the time - Like when you listen to a copyrighted song on Youtube that was uploaded by a private user, or even when you borrow a DVD/VHS/BlueRay from a friend and so on. Heck even when you "rip" music from a CD to a PC your pirating! _{(Country of residence dependant)}

 

2 ) DRM is bad! Over the years I've fell fowl to the rootkit Sony installed on PC's with a few incidents of operating systems locking up and hard drives becoming corrupt ( I was one of these people ). I've also bought games, new that I couldn't play because of DRM with activation issues or installation problems.

 

3) DRM is easily circumvented and normally already circumvented BEFORE a game even comes out. So why bother using it when point 2) is a valid counter argument and is proven to make a very slight difference.

 

4) You say cost issues aren't true? Unfortunately they are, Myself as an example. I earn a tidy wage, maintain a house and a relatively decent living. But every month there are at a minimum 2 or 3 AAA released games and a few other games that come out that catch my eye that I would buy/play however I can only ever afford 1 or 2 games at £35-45 a pop, and every month these purchases soon add up so I choose my games carefully and then I resort to 2nd hand games. Now throw in the amount of gamers who are young, don't work, earn that good a living or have parents that won't buy everything for them and suddenly you have demand and the inability to supply legitamatly.

 

Which is where a lot of people fall to piracy. They are not going to buy the game new regardless at this point. So they either rent it from a friend where the creators get nothing, rent it from a shop where the creators get nothing, buy it second hand when the cost comes down and again the creators get nothing OR they get it for free from the thousand and one locations where you can acquire it.

 

I'm not saying it's right in fact in point 1) I said piracy IS bad but it's a fact and has always been a fact. For as long as there has been a recordable media there has been piracy. VHS, Cassette recorders _{( sitting to catch the charts and recording as you listen )}

 

People say Piracy costs sales yet the film and music industry year on year has grown and made a profit! (I've not looked at game company profits lately)

 

Yes it loses 'some' money but no where near as much as they claim when all other factors are took into account.

 

Finally, as numerous reports, gamers and producers them selves have said over the years Piracy is damaging but no where near as damaging as second hand sales. There was a report out several years ago where second hand sales for the UK (movies, music and games) was only a few % less then new sales....

 

 

 

On that note I leave you ALL with a question, have you ever pirated something (by pirate I mean, downloaded, borrowed, loaned) a game loved it and went to buy it and the expansions?

 

I have, It was Mass Effect 1 - I thought it looked **** when it came out, wasn't my type of game I thought so I pirated it after a few of my friends said it was amazing. They were right! I went out and bought it, then I bought ME2, ME3, several expansions, books, comics and even as geeky as this is to point out - a T-Shirt!

 

I've probably now spent £400 on ME stuff through Bioware and all because I pirated..

 

*edit*

If the game is worth buying people will buy it, if it's not they won't. Even if the ability to pirate wasn't around that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people pirate just because they can. Take that away and throw in the cost concerns and lack of interest in the game to begin with and the game still won't sell.

 

PE Wise, it obviously has a lot of interest and backing. Hopefully when it launches A LOT more people will be interested in it and buy it. I don't however think that piracy will be the result of it not selling.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Juneau

[SGray]

Even starforce isn't remedy - the Witcher 2 has the latest one, and that version was cracked outright, instead of no-drm one. (My friend had to use cracked version, while owning the legit copy, until protection was patched out.) Talks about "difficulties with applying crack" for end user are empty, nowadays it's mostly one-click solutions. The main topic should be the will to hassle with pirating and cracking at all instead of buying the game.

Reasons for considering pirating the game could be: price (not a point in PE); inconveniences with paying systems (have bunch of friends convinced to buy this game but late for the kickstarter(amazon) and unable to use paypal); hindering somehow drm; impossible to get otherwise content (pre-order bonuses); little to less care about the game itself (again not a point in PE, not a mainstream project relying heavy on advertising). That's all I could name.

 

Preventing pirating is a waste of time and money, imo, even the most complex but known system (not inventing new technical concepts and relying on files on the user PC) won't stand a day if there is wish to undone it. Those DRMs that invest heavily in innovation (some versions of starforce on their emergence) or those which rely on server connection (without actually having part of the game on remote server) will stand longer, but wont guarantee anything - there is no protection from disassembling the exe or reverse-engineering server.

[Nanakamado]

Well I backed P:E, beacuse I've seen that there will be GOG download and GOG download equals no DRM. I wouldn't have backed steam-only or DRM protected game.

 

I was OK with some kind of anti-piracy protection as long as it was not very irritating. But now when we have steam and steam-like things that are big DRM's pretending to be some social media I'm in fact any DRM enemy.

 

DRM are of course only burdensome for legitimate buyers, like all those not skipable ads and anti-piracy banners in movies,. Beacuse pirates have no DRM's. I watched some interview with CDPR CEO, and he said that Witcher's 2 DRM was broken day after launching the game (and from begining there was two versions with DRM and DRM free).

[NOK222]

I have a theory that people tend to pirate based on the publisher and their reputation.

Edited November 29, 2012 by NKKKK

[GhoulishVisage]

You're kidding, right?

 

You do know why CDPR is so beloved by the pc community, right?

I just... goddamn.

You ACTUALLY want DRM as though it's in any way effective and not irritating?

 

The best DRM is goodwill, everything else gets cracked.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/24/cd-projekt-red-interview-cyberpunk-2077-witcher-2-piracy-windows-8-and-more/

[SophosTheWise]

 

TL;DR If you want DRM to go away, stop pirating video games.

 

This is not going to happen, as long as the current copyright laws and intellectual property laws exist. We could just flip the whole situation: Intellectual Property is theft from the Public Domain. What about that?

 

Also, DRM is doing the exact opposite: it's driving away normal users and creates more pirates. Funny enough, one could add: as long as piracy exists, the offers are simply not good enough.

[Kaldurenik]

There is no point at all to DRM... There have not been a single DRM kind that have not been cracked. Sure there have been some that have taken a very long time to crack. Heck even MMO's and server based DRM have been cracked.

 

Pirates will pirate. If they enjoy it they might buy it. Great you got a sale. But dont run around hunting them or use some kind of DRM that will hurt the people that bought the game.

[Althernai]

This is where I'll lose some of you, I'm sure, but the developers should find ways to discourage piracy from the general public by giving DRM-enabled or some other copyright-protected copy - with caveats.

This is where you should lose just about everyone, regardless of what they think of piracy or DRM. I've only briefly skimmed this thread so I might have missed this already being said, but let me say it (or repeat it) loud and clear: it makes absolutely no sense to release a DRM-free version and then waste money on implementing another version with DRM. Think about it: the Kickstarter sold on the order of 100K copies (there were not this many backers, but a substantial fraction of backers purchased multiple copies). Some of these copies are guaranteed to be DRM-free because this is what the Kickstarter advertised. The probability that one of them will make get into the hands of pirates is effectively 100%. If you don't believe me, read this thread -- just in the small subset of backers who still post here, there are members of the pirate party as well as people who don't think piracy is immoral.

 

Thus, if Obsidian is insane enough to implement DRM for P:E (I mean beyond Steam as that's more of a distrubution platform with DRM built in at no additional cost), they will have no impact at all on pirates who will be happily playing the DRM-free version. All DRM means in the context of P:E is an additional cost for Obsidian and a nuisance to paying customers. Remember, DRM is not free: not only must they either license some flavor of it or create it on their own, but it also adds substantially to the cost of quality assurance. The reason is that they basically have to go through the entire game and figure out whether everything works as expected both with and without DRM. DRM just doesn't make any sense here.

[Juneau]

Main point though, despite all the conversational points - We're promised a DRM free version of the game, which is apart of the purchase contract through Kickstarter. I'm sure a few people who paid a few grand might be unhappy if they change their mind ^^

[Elerond]

Main point though, despite all the conversational points - We're promised a DRM free version of the game, which is apart of the purchase contract through Kickstarter. I'm sure a few people who paid a few grand might be unhappy if they change their mind ^^

 

And by kickstarters rules and agreements pledgers would have right to demand their money back in case which Obsidian (or any other project creator in kickstarter) don't deliver rewards which they have promised. So taking DRM free version in this point of the table would probably be more damaging than what pirates could ever do. As some people would see that orginal offer for drm free version was only marketing ploy to get more backers for the project and they would probably cause bad press for the project and Obsidian itself, which could cause monetary lose even in the far future. Greed company digma is easy to get, but much harder to get rid off.

[anubite]

DRM doesn't stop pirating. It just incentivizes it. End of story.

 

Piracy rate is <10% and the people who pirate will continue to do so. Just don't even think about those people, you simply cannot punish 90% of your consumer base to try and lock down 10%. You simply can't anyway, because pirate groups can break any DRM you make, no matter how ingenious you think it is.

 

It's also nonsense to have pirates IN your consumer base. They aren't purchasing your product, just ignore them. As far as you're concerned, 100% of people who play your game pay for it. There's no "theft" or "missing profit" because chances are, pirates weren't going to give you money even if they couldn't pirate it. Why do publishers think they are clairvoyant and know that because 10,000 people pirated their game, it means they lost 10,000 sales? It doesn't mean that at all.

 

No one can bankrupt activision by pirating the latest Call of Duty game 1,000,000,000 times. There is no money lost when someone pirates a game. The loss of revenue is only a potential one. A "what if".

Edited November 29, 2012 by anubite

[Monte Carlo]

I’m not going to call pirates “thieves” because they aren’t stealing tangible property.

 

Depends what jurisdiction you're in. Anyhow, it's still theft.

[Pshaw]

DRM doesn't stop pirating. It just incentivizes it. End of story.

 

Piracy rate is <10% and the people who pirate will continue to do so. Just don't even think about those people, you simply cannot punish 90% of your consumer base to try and lock down 10%. You simply can't anyway, because pirate groups can break any DRM you make, no matter how ingenious you think it is.

 

It's also nonsense to have pirates IN your consumer base. They aren't purchasing your product, just ignore them. As far as you're concerned, 100% of people who play your game pay for it. There's no "theft" or "missing profit" because chances are, pirates weren't going to give you money even if they couldn't pirate it. Why do publishers think they are clairvoyant and know that because 10,000 people pirated their game, it means they lost 10,000 sales? It doesn't mean that at all.

 

No one can bankrupt activision by pirating the latest Call of Duty game 1,000,000,000 times. There is no money lost when someone pirates a game. The loss of revenue is only a potential one. A "what if".

 

It's not that I disagree with what you're saying 100% it's just that I hate that argument. If developers can't say with certainty that you would have bought their product if not for piracy than you can't say with certainty that without piracy those people who thought they'd "never buy" a game wouldn't eventually buy it. I've turned so many of my friends on to WoW when they would "never ever buy a game they had to pay to play" which might have been true at the moment they said it but sure enough I had them shelling out $60 and a monthly fee a month after they said that. The same applies to these people who can't afford or would 'never buy' a game when it's released. You don't, and can't, know that 1, 2 or even 6 months down the line after hearing reviews and friends talk about X game that they might not buckle and buy it while it's on sale someplace. Even if you can never afford it and do never buy it that's ok. Getting to enjoy a companies labors that took years and cost millions without paying for it is not ok regardless of how you try and rationalize it.

 

Still it's irrelevant game companies see people pirating games who did not pay for them. These people clearly have interest enough in the game to pirate it and play it which means they are potential customers as they show interest in the game. To get back to the OPs main point we need try and at least take a stand that piracy is in fact wrong regardless of how it's rationalized and regardless of the fact that we probably won't be able to stop it. If we don't we're going to just continue losing more and more games to the free to play with micro-transactions model, always online with server side content or to consoles which are considerably harder to pirate games on. I personally don't want any of those things. As such I will stand on the anti-pirate side of things and even the pro-drm side of things because I don't like seeing developers go bankrupt and I like playing games on my PC offline and without my credit card handy.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Pshaw

[Hormalakh]

On that note I leave you ALL with a question, have you ever pirated something (by pirate I mean, downloaded, borrowed, loaned) a game loved it and went to buy it and the expansions?

 

I have, It was Mass Effect 1 - I thought it looked **** when it came out, wasn't my type of game I thought so I pirated it after a few of my friends said it was amazing. They were right! I went out and bought it, then I bought ME2, ME3, several expansions, books, comics and even as geeky as this is to point out - a T-Shirt!

 

I've probably now spent £400 on ME stuff through Bioware and all because I pirated..

 

*edit*

If the game is worth buying people will buy it, if it's not they won't. Even if the ability to pirate wasn't around that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people pirate just because they can. Take that away and throw in the cost concerns and lack of interest in the game to begin with and the game still won't sell.

 

This thread is about P:E not any other game. For your ME example, the fact that your friends said it was amazing was the reason you went out and bought it finally. If they hadn't you wouldn't have experienced that game at all. Pirating it didn't help you make a decision. Seeing the game and experiencing it did. You could have just as easily gone to a friends house, or he could have let you borrow his copy, and you would have made that decision. It had nothing to do with piracy. Piracy didn't make that sale. Good word of mouth did.

[SophosTheWise]

I’m not going to call pirates “thieves” because they aren’t stealing tangible property.

 

Depends what jurisdiction you're in. Anyhow, it's still theft.

 

No it's not. If at all, it's a new kind of crime called unlawful copying. You are not stealing anything, because stealing implies something isn't there after you take it. Also Piracy does not withdraw you of the ability to use your software.

[Hormalakh]

Preventing pirating is a waste of time and money, imo, even the most complex but known system (not inventing new technical concepts and relying on files on the user PC) won't stand a day if there is wish to undone it. Those DRMs that invest heavily in innovation (some versions of starforce on their emergence) or those which rely on server connection (without actually having part of the game on remote server) will stand longer, but wont guarantee anything - there is no protection from disassembling the exe or reverse-engineering server.

 

You're kidding, right?

 

You do know why CDPR is so beloved by the pc community, right?

I just... goddamn.

You ACTUALLY want DRM as though it's in any way effective and not irritating?

 

The best DRM is goodwill, everything else gets cracked.

 

http://www.pcgamer.c...ows-8-and-more/

 

As a backer of this game I don't demand DRM. But I do demand other backers and Obsidian supporters to STOP the defending piracy of PE and to start saying, "Yah, piracy is an evil." My thread consisted of variable proposals to the backers and the developers. The developers so far have followed through on their part. They haven't implemented DRM and have made the game easy to access when it comes out.

 

My issue is actually now with the backers. Why are you defending piracy for this game? How can you support a company and also come here and support piracy for PE. All I want is for people to say, "Yes, if I see someone pirating this game - which doesn't have DRM - then I will tell them to go an buy it and to stop pirating it." Community deterrence by speaking out against pirating PE and not actively putting your backed game on pirate sites is what you can do.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Agelastos]

I’m not going to call pirates “thieves” because they aren’t stealing tangible property.

 

Depends what jurisdiction you're in. Anyhow, it's still theft.

 

But the sexy kind of theft, like in a heist film where a ragtag band of lovable rogues steal millions of dollars from a villainous casino owner, right?

[Hormalakh]

Main point though, despite all the conversational points - We're promised a DRM free version of the game, which is apart of the purchase contract through Kickstarter. I'm sure a few people who paid a few grand might be unhappy if they change their mind ^^

 

And by kickstarters rules and agreements pledgers would have right to demand their money back in case which Obsidian (or any other project creator in kickstarter) don't deliver rewards which they have promised. So taking DRM free version in this point of the table would probably be more damaging than what pirates could ever do. As some people would see that orginal offer for drm free version was only marketing ploy to get more backers for the project and they would probably cause bad press for the project and Obsidian itself, which could cause monetary lose even in the far future. Greed company digma is easy to get, but much harder to get rid off.

 

And apparently reading is hardest of all. I specifically stated that backers would get a DRM-free version. Backers aren't the pirates here.

[Hormalakh]

This is not going to happen, as long as the current copyright laws and intellectual property laws exist. We could just flip the whole situation: Intellectual Property is theft from the Public Domain. What about that?

 

This is called "moving the goalposts." Whenever the "objections" of pirates are met, they just say "but we meant this instead." P:E IP is not theft from the Public Domain. That's like a whole other level of delusional thinking right there. How exactly did PE steal from the public doman? By asking from forum members what they'd like to see in their game that they backed?

 

From now on Sophos, I expect you to keep your ideas to yourself, make a game from it, and then give that game out to the public for free.

[jivex5k]

Name one game. If there existed a DRM that couldn't be cracked you can be damn sure Assassin's Creed would have it.

 

Cubase 4/5 took 2 years to crack, not a game though it's a music production suite that had hardware protection.

Pro tools 8 isn't cracked for the PC yet either. Neither is Cubase 6.

But these are very expensive hardware DRM systems so that's not practical for video games.

 

Diablo 3 isn't fully cracked yet. The reason, they render a lot of data on their servers so it all has to be reverse engineered.

Last time I checked they have Act 1 done but that's it, given time they could reverse engineer everything though.

But rest assured this method prevented a lot of would be pirates from getting this game, if you really want to play d3 you gotta pay.

 

That type of protection though...it has disadvantages. Diablo 3 is pretty much a failure in my eye's due to this always online DRM (well that and the real money auction house)

 

I ended up getting Torchlight 2 because it allows LAN play. I could have pirated it, but I wanted to play on their servers and it was only 20 dollars.

 

In the case of single player games...they are screwed. There's no way to prevent pirates without some expensive hardware DRM, and even that only delays them....usually.

 

MOTU uses a hardware protection that hasn't been cracked to this day, and they make some bad ass virtual instruments.

 

So DRM methods that work actually exist, they are just not a good fit for P:E because it's a single player video game, not some $600.00 production suite or a game that requires a connection to severs.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now after reading through a lot of this thread I've come to a couple ways to try and keep PE piracy as low as possible:

 

1. The developers need a good relationship with their customer base. They should be active on facebook/twitter/their forums/steam whatever. They need to get out their and show they are people who work hard and deserve your money. As was said in a post, your more inclined to give your friend a $50 he dropped vs a stranger.

 

2. Make sure the game is easier to obtain and play legitimately than via pirating. This is harder on the PC, a simple torrent download will net you a game in most cases, with a simple exe replacement as the crack. However, a lot of people would still rather not deal with sifting through possibly bad torrents, waiting for a possible long download, the possibility of viruses, so you have an edge there. And offer FAST download speeds!

 

3. Don't bundle other crap with your game, especially some intrusive DRM that limits the number of installs or something. ITunes comes to mind with their stranglehold on your media. Why would I pay for media that is limited when a quick search can offer it free of restrictions....With all the licensing and what not, it's easier to pirate Game Of Thrones than to find a legitimate stream, they are missing a huge opportunity because of their restrictions.

 

4. Make it affordable. A lot more people would be willing to pay $30.00 for this game than $60.00. This was a big factor when I bought TL2, it was only 20 bucks and I sure as hell got and continue to get value from this game.

 

5. Accept the fact it will be pirated to some degree, and use it to promote your game rather than condemning pirates. I linked an article before where a company did this, and basically had a pay what you want type deal. He basically said hey, I hope you guys like this game, and if you can please consider donating if you enjoy it. I work hard and don't make much money and every little bit helps.

 

That's all I can think of for now.

Edited November 29, 2012 by jivex5k

[GhoulishVisage]

My issue is actually now with the backers. Why are you defending piracy for this game? How can you support a company and also come here and support piracy for PE. All I want is for people to say, "Yes, if I see someone pirating this game - which doesn't have DRM - then I will tell them to go an buy it and to stop pirating it." Community deterrence by speaking out against pirating PE and not actively putting your backed game on pirate sites is what you can do.

 

Not wanting DRM doesn't equate to piracy, and the way Obsidian will get the fans of their games to tell pirates "hey, that isn't cool" is by building goodwill, the first step of which is getting rid of DRM.

CDPR have realized this, and as a result the pc community have rallied behind them.

Their game still gets pirated, but despite that it's hugely successful and has a devoted following who do tell pirates to piss off.

 

Nothing can be done to stop a game from getting pirated, but they can change how they react to this, and thus how the community will react to them.

Edited November 29, 2012 by GhoulishVisage